Hi guys, I return with a question about the Burning of FP to stay alive. There has been a heated debate on how this works and that the information given in the handbook is ambiguous.

What happens with the other critical wounds he just sustained before the finishing hit? For example: Nero (a guardsman) is in melee combat with 2 dustdogs gone feral. He sustains critical injuries to his limbs (-2 Left arm, -4 Right Leg). As luck would have it one of the dustdogs bites at his head for a whooping 23 damage (Nero has no helmet and only 4 Toughness to soak some of that damage). According the critical table his head is cleaned ripped off. The character is very much dead. But the player burns a fatepoint. What happens?

1. On the critical table, do I claim that in fact he falls in the (-7 Head threshold) where his face is mangled, he is permanetly blind, 1d10 fellowship lost and that now he suffers from bloodloss?

2. He keeps his critical wounds from his limbs but the damage on his head never happened? This is very stupid actually since his head was mangled but I cold probably said that the Dog bit a rock nearby or something equally far fetched.. <--- I don't like this variant.

3. All critical damage is shrugged off (like it says in the manual) and he is unconscious at 0 HP.

What do you guys think?

Cezar

3. You answered own question with remark, like it says in the manual.

Xarthilias said:

This is the rule we use in our group. Burning a fate point allows the character to survive, but only just barely. I would however also remove the bloodloss since by burning the point the character is supposed to survive.

It´s not very grim dark if you survive without maiming is it

If indeed the variant 3 is the official rule then by all means the hell with it.

Oh and, one more problem that I have.

Problem: When it comes to solving melee encounters with multiple opponents, my stand their ground and lobby grenade over the opponents, 2 meters away from the assailants (not to be caught in the blast area). In doing so they AOE all opposition. Throwing a grenade doesn't require any particular skill or talent.

Question: Is there anyway to combat this? My first idea is to make the grenade blast radius a random number so they will thwart their over the top cold math. Make the radius 1d5 + 1 or something like that.

Xarthilias said:

Throwing a grenade require a BS-test if I´m not mistaken. If they fail it use the scatter rules, might even land in the middle of your players.

Also, make sure that the enemies use grenades as well, nail bombs are cheap and low-tech

And if all else fail: Use suicide bombers to charge your players in melee.

The suicide bombers idea is really good.

But apart from that there are no actual rules preventing the players from lobbying grenades in melee? The scatter rule doesn't pose that much of a threat.

Xarthilias said:

Grenades are really, really, REALLY good. According to RAW there is not much to be done about them I´m afraid.

Xarthilias said:

You would be mistaken there. Myself and a couple others in my group have had scatter bite us. I had a particularly bad scatter incident with a grenade launcher and the window of a 4 story building I was trying to shoot through.

Generally the Fate point should just negate the attack. Maybe your player gets his weapon in the way of the animals jaws, thus saving what would have surely been a fatal blow.

If you prefer the other way, granting the worst crit without insta-death, that's fine. Don't impose blood loss and and if you do blind the character make sure they get replacement augmetics quickly.

Where do they keep the grenades? Might be chance for damage to player setting off grenades.

Xarthilias said:

First, don't change the way the item (in this case, the grenade) works in the game because you failed to take it into account. The players did a good job by being prepared, and using the things well. You really don't want to get into a bad habit of changing the game mechanics because you got flat-footed by their preparation. You did want players who were interested in keeping their characters alive didn't you?

That said, here's 3 simple possibilities.. if you have players who get grenade happy too often:

Throw a Telekinetic Psyker against them. A Psyker of this type can have a field day pulling pins off a guy who's running around with a bandolier of the things by using Precision Telekinesis. Or he could be lying in wait for that grenade throw and hit with a Catch Projectiles. Both of these abilities are detailed on p. 176 of the core rulebook.

or

Have the opposition use their own grenades. It can get real nasty, when opponents get the drop on players (surprise round), and players can't dodge from it.

or

Make sure the combat is far enough away, outside of grenade range. Have traps set up when the players try to close the range that will blow up in their faces.

These may not stop their usage of grenades... but they might slow them down a tad.

I suggest following the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Unless you're a masochist, at which point confer with your players (y'know, those guys that you're running the game for? The ones who are supposed to be enjoying themselves?) to see how Grimdark they like their Grim Darkness.

And no, I'm not saying you should treat your players with Kid Gloves (unless they really are incapable of enjoying a game where they aren't invulnerable to enemy fire and shoot lightning out of their ass), just with respect to their enjoyment of the game.

My problem is that this is very unrealistic and ridiculous as well. I am leaning to change the rules just because it is the easier way. I feel that the grenade blast is very small to being with, it is my personal feeling. Lobbying grenade over opponents in melee is an exploit, and the only thing missing is the Benny Hill main theme.

Adding psykers and all that it is not going to cut it. I like things fair and I would avoid to railroad combat. I don't want to punish the players, just to make combat more hazardous and discourage this exploit.

I also resent the Golden Rule. This is not a contest between me and them, I am well aware of my position as a prestidigitator. I just want them to reconsider doing that by adding more randomness to their action. All I am trying to do is to hinder the Jedi-like approach without resorting to GM cheating.

Xarthilias said:

Potential fix:

The Blast trait for the grenade is the "deadly zone." After that there is 5-10 times the Blast trait in "wound zone", which means everyone in this radious takes 1d10 damage. Also leave the options for Righteous Fury open, even on the actual thrower! And of course cover should work well against this, after all grenades are safest used from behind cover.

Note that historically there were(are) two versions used - Defensive and Offensive. The former has a huge blast radius (30-45m) where wounds are likely, while the latter has only 15 meter casualty zone and 5 meter kill zone (close to the DH frag grenade). I would advise against boosting the radius though, as it makes it impossible for anyone without extreme agility to dodge out of the zone, meaning it is a AUTOHIT weapon because of the 1d5 meter "scatter" rule.

Friend of the Dork said:

I don't quite follow

So what gets modified? The blast zone is 4 meters. Is this what you described as the "deadly zone". What type of damage the players take that are caught in this?

From what he describes, everyone within 4 metres takes normal damage from grenade and everyone outside that but within 40 metres takes 1d10.

Letrii said:

Yup. Although 40 meters is just a possibility, for "offensive" style grenades I would suggest Blast value times 4 instead, thus 12 meters for the Blast (4) frag. And this would only apply to fragmentation weapons not concussive or fire bombs. Since everything in ranges is scaled down in DH I would scale down this as well instead of using realistic values.

Xarthilias said:

If I was a PC to which that would happen I probably would not burn the FP but roll a new Char.
To burn a FP just to play a cripple afterwards is useless.

Umbranus said:

That's why I play with the rule that any 'permanent' damage (other than insanity/corruption points and their effects) only lasts till the end of the mission. Then the players Inquisitor will pay for them to undergo sufficient medical treatment (including bionics) to restore them to operating condition.

If they want something better than the common quality bionics provided, they get the option to pay the difference in price.