Hi everyone.

My group is going to do it's first Deathwatch campaign soonish, and we're going to be fighting Tyranids. In close confines. Most likely vanguard organisms. Bloody Genestealers...

Our group consists of a Night Wardens (Raven Guard successor) Apothecary (me), a Sable Wings (Blood Angels successor) Tactical OR Techie, a Crimson Fists Techie OR Assault Marine (they both haven't decided but there'll only be one Tech Marine in the team) and a Blood Angels Assault Marine.

So essentially, an Apothecary, Techmarine and either 2 Assault Marines or a Tactical and Assault Marine.

Anyway, I was thinking of picking up a Flamer since I was thinking how useful it'd be against Genestealers, especially in the close confines we're going to be fighting in (and reading in Creatures Anathema how they advised using Flame weapons), but then I realized... The way Flame weapons work - unless I'm missing something - means that most of the time, a Genestealer won't get hit by the fire due to having amazing Agility.

So Flamers -aren't- good against them?

I... I don't get it... Especially since Incendiary Grenades can cause damage to them easily, but not Flamers...

Hm. Well, if it's close confines, I'd say that their effective ability to dodge might be taken down. a cone of that size is hard to dodge when you're in a hallway, not many places to go.

I'm also not sure if that rule is meant to be like a dodge reaction, where you can only do it once as well. But also, don't know what breed of genestealer you'll be up against, but I'm betting you'll atleast have a 25-40% chance to hit them. Which is good considering it is an auto hit.

Frostfire said:

The Agility roll to avoid being hit does not require a Reaction from the target(s) - it is simply a replacement for the attack roll. If a target fails this Agility roll, it may then spend a Reaction to Dodge the attack.

This does mean that Flame weapons are poor performers against creatures with Unnatural Agility.

Since I use a resisted DoS comparison to determine the outcome of Dodge and Parry attempts, I have house-ruled that you cannot Dodge a Flame weapon. This may help somewhat.

HappyDaze said:

That is usually what we do as well, taking a page off Table top. We do the roll about catching on fire, but didn't realize about that rule till just now.

However, even with unnatural agility, the Genestealers should have a base stat which they have to roll off of, correct? I mean, I know the bonus is added to degrees of sucess, but in a catching on fire test, would you consider a 72 roll with 60 unnatural agility a failure or 5 sucesses?

Failure, I'm pretty sure.

Also, I might get our GM to houserule that it's -20 to the Agility test or something. Or...

I dunno. They're very ineffective against Genestealers, which is unfluffy.

In order to dodge an area effect weapon, you have to be able to move out of the area of effect with your basic move unless you have a special ability (such as with the Vindicare). For a genestealer in an open field this isn't a proble, however a genestealer in an enclosed corridor, there is a good chance that there won't be enough room for the bugger to get out of the way.

Flame weapons work this way:

1. Attacker declares his attack, and the attack hits everything in a 30 degree arc in front of them out to the range of whichever flamer model they're using. No attack roll is made.
2. Defender(s) that are hit then makes an Agility check off of their base agility. If the defender has unnatural agility, then they get, effectively, a +10 to the roll
3. If the Defender makes the check:
   They don't get hit and duck out of the way
4. If the Defender fails the check:
   The defender, if they have any reactions left, may attempt to dodge. Normal dodge rules apply (including the part about not getting out of the way if your movement can't get you out of the blast- same for grenades)
   If the Defender fails or is unable to dodge:
   Defender is hit, roll damage
   Defender makes an additional check off of their base agility to see if they catch on fire

How good the stealer is depends on which one your GM uses- there are different stats in different books, and while their agility is often on the good side, they may not have a 60+ with unnatural in all cases.

If you want additional penalties to the base agility roll, you need to get the Cleanse and Purify talent, which imposes a -20 to your defenders.

Charmander said:

Oh, right. I hadn't actually read about dodging AoE things like Flamers.

Also, where does it state that they (effectively) get +10 to their roll for having Unnatural Agility?

But regardless, the Genestealer will normally pass the initial Agility test and not get hit anyway.

Also, I think he'll probably use the ones from Creatures Anathema. What books are the other ones in?

SubtleCadaver said:

The ones in TEP have 60 agility, unnatural agility x2 and unnatural speed x2

They are harrd to hit with a flamer.

nolsutt said:

So do the ones in CA, IIRC.

Hmm... Can you guy think of what I should get? I have 77 Req for the mission and I'm only Rank 1, just starting.

I was thinking definitely a Diagnoster Helmet, definitely a Mag-locked Chainsword and... I really don't know what else.

SubtleCadaver said:

Page 136 core, bottom paragraph left column.

nolsutt said:

I don't disagree, but you'll hit them about 30% of the time (agility test of 60, shifted one difficulty category towards easy gives them a +10, or a 70). If you want to hit agile creatures, pick up cleanse and purify, which will up it to 50/50.

It is one of the things that I dislike about flamers- they're really mostly good against slower small targets that you can group together to light a bunch of them on fire at once.

SubtleCadaver said:

77 Req?! That's either some hard or a lot of objectives!

What to req really depends on the nature of the mission, what your stats are, and whether or not your GM makes you track ammo as to what you get, but I'd look into a chainsword for sure, the diagnoster helmet is a good idea. I'd look at some heavy weapons since you don't have a devestator and things can get tricky without heavy support. As the medic look at the other tools and drugs to see if you can use other things to help your team out. A blind grenade or two can be handy. i'd also look into specialy ammo- if you have a good briefing you may know what you're up against you can set your ammo loadout appropriately (kraken rounds (which cost 15 not 5) give you fantastic pen, metal storm is good versus hordes, hellfire if you're using a standard boltgun). An auspex would be really handy as well, but you might leave that and combi tools up to your tech. Demo charges or melta bombs can come in handy as well. If you think you're going to need to capture folks, restraints. If you think you're going to have to sleep or set up camp, pick up a screamer.

Flame weapons are VERY effective against Hordes.They don't get their Agility roll to avoid, so you just get hits. Heavy Flamer on a Dev with Unrelenting Devastation and Cleanse and Purify gives 2d5+8 hits each of which inflicts one automatic damage (per Unrelenting Devastation which causes extra damage upon a hit) and another if it does sufficient damage. That's pretty nasty.

Charmander said:

Oh I see. Found it.

Yeah... Dunno whether it'd be worth it or not.

Nahh, just talked to the GM. Turns out he hadn't seen the errata yet. The Req now is 48 per player, and the objectives are:

Primary objectives:
Purging the lower sections of the hive. (150 KM, novice) Caution advised, vanguard organisms detected.

Establish operations base near elevator shaft XI and await further commands. (Novice)

Secondary objectives:
Determine the infrastructure status in the underhive and service areas. (Novice)

Determine brood strong points and lairs. Do not engage, mark for later extermination. (100 KM, skilled)

Tertiary objectives:
Destroy synapse beasts with the area. (100KM, veteran)

So... Yeah.

It's a lot more limited in Req now, but thanks for the ideas.

HappyDaze: Good point. Don't think we'll be facing many Hordes, though.

SubtleCadaver said:

Brood Brothers - a type of cultist that has carried the infection of the Genestealers might be present and would likely come in Hordes.

SubtleCadaver said:

It depends on your GM but I'd expect you to face the hordes Happy describes, and he is correct about the flamer's effectiveness versus them. I'd suggest someone in your group, even if it's not you, take a heavy weapon- HB is an easy pick, however it'll eat up a ton of your req, and if you try to get specialty ammo for it.... The Missle Launcher is much cheaper and has no renown requirement either, and it can still give you that added punch should you need it. Then a hand to hand weapon, some kind of specialty ammo for your boltgun or bolt pistol (pistol if you've taken a flamer), your medical supplies, and an auspex to see through some of the walls.

You'll want to communicate to your group though that as the apothecary you need to survive so they need to keep you out of harms way. As a GM one of the things that I take into consideration with each session is whether or not an Apothecary is present and ready to heal people.

Charmander said:

Hmm, yeah. The Tactical/Techie will probably take a Heavy Weapon.
Medical supplies are a must/
Auspex, I'll probably leave to the Tech Marine.
Hmm... I'll probably get Specialty Ammo for my Pistol, just because it's cheaper. What do you recommend, personally? Oh, and should I take a Jump Pack?

HappyDaze said:

Oh yeah. Good point, hahaha.

For reference, my Marine (haven't taken advances yet, or done eye colour/hair colour, etc.):

Chapter: Night Wardens (+5 WS/+5 Agility)
Traits: Unnatural Strength (x2), Unnatural Toughness (x2), Deathwatch Hypno-conditioning, Deathwatch Training, Enhance Healing
Specialty: Apothecary

Skills: Common Lore (Deathwatch), Forbidden Lore (Xenos), Awareness, Ciphers (Chapter Runes), Climb, Dodge, Common Lore (Adeptus Astartes, Imperium, War), Concealment, Drive (Ground Vehicles), (Intimidate), Literacy, Navigation (Surface), Scholastic Lore (Codex Astartes), Silent Move, Speak Language (High/Low Gothic), Tactics (Defensive), Tracking, Medicae
Talents: Ambidextrous, Astartes Weapons Training, Bulging Biceps, Heightened Senses (Hearing, Sight), Killing Strike, Nerves of Steel, Quick Draw, Resistance (Psychic Powers), True Grit, Unarmed Master, Deathwatch Training

Starting Gear: Astartes Power Armour, Astartes Bolt Pistol, 3 Frag Grenades, 3 Krak Grenades, Astartes Combat Knife, Repair Cement, Astartes Bolter with Fire Selector, Narthecium and Reductor
Chapter Trapping: ?
Power Armour: Mk4 Maximus Armour (AP7/9, +20 Strength, +10 Auto-senses and 3 Histories)
Power Armour Histories: “Blood of a Battle-Brother” (+1 Cohesion), “Pauldrons of Fury” (AP7 arms, +10 Strength) and “To Forget is to Forgive. Forget Nothing.” (Hatred: Tyranids)

I got pretty **** lucky with nearly all of my stats.

WS: 48
BS: 41
S: 53 (10)
T: 48 (8)
Ag: 53
Int: 44
Per: 40
WP: 40
Fel: 43
Wounds: 20
Fate Points: 3
Insanity: 0
Corruption: 0

SubtleCadaver said:

Remember that they can dodge bolt shells as well. So strictly speaking, firearms are likely to miss a lot against them. It's just the way it works. Players would be upset if foe's heavy flamers automatically hit, after all. Additionally; remember that flamers have the advantage of covering an area. The user isn't so much as shooting at a single target, but covering a rather large area with flame. They're obscene against hordes, too.

Also, you're thinking templates too much. Flamethrowers don't spray a 30 degree cone of fire. They spray a much more narrow jet of flame. It's just that the game rules tell us that you can spray that jet around to effectively cover a 30 degree arc. If you take a step back from the mechanic it makes much more sense. You garden hosepipe doesn't spray a 30 degree arc, yet you can soak a 30 degree arc with it in short order. that's how flamers work, too.

I'd consider petitioning your GM for a house-rule: If a flamer is used as normal, it's handled the same as normal. You're waving a hosepipe at an area occupied with a very agile creature. However, if you elect NOT to fire in a 30 degree arc, and focus on only one single target, they suffer a penalty (-20?) to their agility and dodge checks, and nothing else in the arc takes damage.

Oh: they effectively get a +10 because they have unnatural agility, which decreases the difficulty of the test by 10.

Eh? Speciality ammunition for a pistol is cheaper? I don't think so. Short of the backpack ammo supplies for the HB, it's the same cost for anything: bolt pistol, bolter, or storm bolter.

Take a magazine of hellfire for your bolter if you have the points. and a chainsword. Even if you don't want to hit things, it'll give you +10 to parry due to being Balanced when you inevitably get engaged in melee.

Siranui said:

Yeah, I guess. Good point with the mechanics, too.

Page 159. Top left. They halve the Requisition cost for pistol mags.

Why Hellfire, though? It's most likely Vanguard organisms... Although "most likely" isn't very reassuring...

Definitely taking a Chainsword.

Wow...good spot on the pistol thing. I'd never noticed that before.

Hellfire is freakin' awesome stuff. Let's face it: You aren't going to be using your special ammunition unless you're up against something serious such as stealers or larger. And Hellfire both completely ignores natural armour and rolls up on a 9+. That's just the thing for shreading stealers and broodlords. Your only other options are Kraken (moot really, considering the Pen of a normal bolt shell will deal with most threats fine, so 7 is kinda overkill), Stalker (which is useful, but niche), or Metalstorm. And you only use metalstrom against hordes, and you use a bolter with it's full auto against hordes, rather than a pistol (which is what you're buying ammo for). Plus Hordes are seldom as serious an immediate threat as -say- stealers.

Probably take a fire selector for your pistol (actually...belay that...just buy another pistol for 5 points and put the special ammo in there) so you don't end up wasting speciality ammunition against lesser foes. Then if a stealer does get close to you, you can empty some Hellfire into it in melee.

HappyDaze said:

Only if:

• They don't manage to get into melee before you can shoot
• The Assault marine doesn't just charge into melee, keeping you from firing unless you want friendy fire
• You are close enough

I startet the game with signature wargear heavy flamer on my techie and in our game it was just plane useless.
My Char did more horde damage with frag grenades than with his heavy flamer.

Nearly every time I shot at non horde enemies with it they passed their Ag roll (two times that didn't happen, but both managed not to catch fire, so none of them died)

One time I could shoot a horde doing enough damage to break it up.Exept for this every time they were either too far away, or charged into melee before I could shoot or I would have risked hitting the assaultmarine who had charged into melee before they even were in range for me.

So if you ask me: Take anything but a heavy flamer. And only take a basic flamer if your GM allowes you to keep your Bolter, too.

My luck was that we found a Rocket launcher in a supply box, so now I at least got a weapon with useful range till I decided what to play next, cause I'm gonna ditch the char as I did the flamer.

Umbranus said:

Go on overwatch with the Heavy Flamer and roast anything that tries to charge in on you and your bolter-slinging buddies. Works best as a Dark Angel with Sustained Suppression.

And if your AM is running into combat before you get to use it, that's a problem with him, not the weapon.

I'd never take a HF on a mission where long-range engagement is likely, but for close quarters, there's not much better (except the absurd relic HF on the Salamander template on Dark Reign with it's -20 to Agi check, greater range, near double damage and felling (2). Oh how I laughed...). Likewise, using a rocket launcher in close quarters is going to be problematic, at best.

Siranui said:

Not a terrible house rule, but you're looking at imposing a -40 once you pick up cleanse and purify. I've never seen that work on the table though so it's hard to judge how bad or good that would be; the initial mediocrity of flamers and the power of boltguns has made most of my players shy away from them.

Siranui said:

As you progress in levels keep your stats in mind- currently you're at a higher parry (with the +10 from balanced) than you are at dodge, but if you raise your agility or dodge skill your dodge will get better. Just something to think about

Umbranus said:

That makes me sad . I'd be curious to know though how you threw grenades further than the 30m the heavy flamer has. As for the melee and assault marine issue, you'll hit those with ANY heavy weapon. Something I'd consider trying is talking to your team about working together a bit more fluidly- consider having the AM wait a little longer to engage in melee, or even wait for them to charge you (chances are he'll get more attacks that way anyhow). You still won't get past the 30m issue, but most creatures shouldn't have a 30m charge so you should at least be able to get a shot or two off.

That all said, the flamer is STILL kind of a 'meh' weapon in my book, I'm a bit disappointed in how it's turned out. It has the potential to do absolutely CRAZY amounts of damage, it just seems to inconsistently do so. I'd actaully rather see it do less damage on a more consistent basis, and not have this one in 100 chance of catching fire and doing damage that ignores armor

Charmander said:

It's off the top of my head. I'm worried that -20 isn't enough for loosing the area effect... but then generally it's best to under-do house rules. -20 seems fair to me.

I think flamers are the way forward for hordes in close quarters (as they should be!). Storm of Iron counts with them, too. Which makes them a good call for Tac marines. Plus: They're cool.

Have you seen the throwing rules, and how far a Marine can chuck something? It's pretty frightening! Obviously you need over-head clearance, but man; those boys can pitch.

It does seem a common problem that people who play AMs are often cited as having a 'screw you and your covering fire/AoE weapons/tactics, I'm going to jump in the middle of them NOW' kinda attitude. This isn't a game issue, but a dufus issue. If you don't use decent tactics, there's no point blaming the weapon. I appreciate that AMs want to get stuck in and do their thing, but impatience to do so can be an amazingly poor choice.

Moving back a bit and being off topic, was anyone else amused that it was charmander who knew exactly how to use a flamer?

Just sayin'

Frostfire said:

Crap, they're on to me