Auto-fire / Enemy balance

By SynnerG, in Dark Heresy

Posted at

Graver said:

Letrii said:

How big are various bolter classes generally accepted to be?

Big? Possibly really big going by the art which is all we really have to go by.

What ever their size, I think it's a safe bet that a pistol that weighs almost twice what a .50 cal Desert Eagle dose is going to be a big gun, and that's just the damned pistol.

By RAW you can see they're either super dense material or enormous by the weight:

  • DH Bolt pistol is 3.5kg empty, or 7.7lbs. With one clip it ups it to 3.58kb or 8.5lbs (10% of the weight)
  • DH Boltgun is 7kg, or 15.4lbs. Loaded 7.5kg/17lbs
  • DH Heavy Bolter is 40kg, or 88.2lbs. Loaded 44kg/97lbs.
  • DW Bolt Pistol is 5.5kg, or 12lbs. Loaded 6.05kg/13.3lbs
  • DW Bolter is 18kg, or 39.7lbs. Loaded 19.8kg/43.7lbs
  • DW Heavy Bolter is 68kg or 150lbs. Loaded 74.8/165lbs
  • Modern .50 Desert Eagle pistol 2kg/4.4lbs
  • Modern M-16 rifle 3.5kg/7.8lbs.
  • Modern Barret M82 50 cal rifle 14kg/30.9lbs
Posted at

Graver said:

Friend of the Dork said:

Graver I would love your house rule if not for the fact that you remove the "skill" part of not hitting your friends and make it totally random. A man with 60 BS, firing full auto (+20) at PBR (+30) has only 4% chance of hitting his friend, 90% chance of hitting enemies, and 6% chance of jamming.

I've always used the optional rule that "FA in melee=FF, at least one bullet possibly more. I reduce the chance for Semi Auto though, not automatic hits there.

Ops, forgot to mention one point (problem with house rules, use them long enough and you forget which parts are part of the HR and what is RAW):

  • Making a called shot eliminates the chance of friendly fire.
  • Called shots can only be made on single shot only (I can't remember if that's RAW or something that came about when a player begged me to get up and hit them by stating that they were going to make a called shot to that guy's head with a FA spray from their heavy bolter).

The called shots, a nice well placed single shot is where the skill came in. They defaulted to a -20% (the same chance of the FF) so it seemed like a perfect fit.

Of course, with Charmander's revelation of a much simpler solution (or DW's solution, what-ever, he voiced it so he gets credit from me for at least doing that!) of equally dispersing all hits over all combatants in the targeted melee is much simpler. I'll probably just go with that in the future, less work and even more friendly fire -I do love me some friendly fire! It's just so gosh darn neighborly!

As weight limits go, they really are one of the major balancing factors. To be honest, a lot of small little things that you might overlook in this system are integral to the over-all balance of it. Remove, change, or not enforce one thing, and it changes a lot of other things. Though you definitely don't have to be draconian with your enforcement. I scarcely did, only asking the players to calculate the weight if what they were telling me they were carrying seemed a bit off.

"Oh ya, I have the Enforcer Carapace on, and I'm taking both auto guns, four re-lodes for each, my bolt pistol and four reloads, my chain sword, the auto gun and three reloads, the rope, oh and the glow globe and all the usual kit, oh, and I have my shotgun to with twelve rounds for it."

"Okay... waitaminut. What's your SB and TB?"

"2 and 2"

"yah, okay, I think you might want to check the weight on all that but I'm pretty sure your going to be huffing and puffing it real bad in an hour or two hauling all that around... and what the hell do you expect to happen anyway?"

I also made it a habit of asking them not only how they were dressed but what weapons they had with them at any given time and how they were strapped. This was as much to avoid infinite ammo-belts of holding as well as to fix an image of the character in my mind so I knew how NPCs would react to them. I'll never forget the night when my groups scum told me:

"Well, I've got my two auto-pistols slung at my hips, my bolt pistol in the small of my back, my chain"

"Waitaminut, what!? Where is your bolt pistol again?

"...in the small of my back, in a MOB holster under my coat."

"Your pistol that weighs as much as an autogun?"

"...er... ya..."

"The one pictured on page 133, that's in the small of your back, tucked into your pants?"

"Oh..." and I see light dawning across his face though, truth be told, I felt I had somehow done the game a grave disservice if he hadn't understood what monsters boters were by that point. All my descriptions of monstrous hand-held rocket cannons, all the images that flashed by on the DVD I made to run during the session, all my coloured descriptions of the heavy beast howling and bucking every time it was fired and he still wanted to tuck it into the small of his back.

At least for the next ten or so minutes, he thought real hard about his character and his load out, drawing imaginary guns from under his arms, hips, thighs, etc before settling on a much more realistic place for his bolt pistol. , I have learned that asking your players to do that once in a while is a real good exercise in character visualization.

Sorry Graver, seems like I completely missed this post. Yeah, with your house rule it makes kinda sense, except that SA is just as random as FA, which I don't like as I see SA burst as well-placed shots in fairly rapid succession (you know, like RL special forces does it). But overall not bad, even if it takes the risk away from hitting friendlies for those with Crack Shot (in SS mode).

As for the size and weight - yeah it is big but then again it is also the same as a RL UZI (3.5 kg). Now this is a Submachinegun that can be fired from one hand (not preferable but still possible).

The Uzi is fairly short when the stock is folded, but hardly small compared to pistols. In fact it is much larger and more difficult to hide than say a Desert Eagle.

Still it IS possible to hide it, either under a large coat/cloak, or even hidden under a hoodie and somewhat baggy pants. Here is a funny video from RL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6qkw2f1LHw'

Although excaggerated and not intended for "everyday wear", it still show that an uzi-sized weapon (sans magazine) can be concealed on a person.

Thus I told my Boltpistol-toting Scum that yeah he could conceal it, but he can't quickdraw it and has to use a ready action (half) to get up and ready the bolt pistol. He's still carrying a Tranter and autopistol in holsters, but this is Sibellus so that's allowed.

But the fact that I couldn't find any good holsters for SMGs when googling goes to show that there really is no good way to store such large weapons ready for combat. Thus you can only stick them in your clothes and tape them to the inside of a large coat, in which case they are apt to make bulges that are hard to explain. Possible? Yeah, but not practical.

Posted at

Friend of the Dork said:

But the fact that I couldn't find any good holsters for SMGs when googling goes to show that there really is no good way to store such large weapons ready for combat.

Hmm, it depends on the exact size and shape ...

mp7holster.jpg <- MP7 Holster

That said, the problem with a bolt pistol won't be its height or length (as it is with 99% of all SMGs) but rather its width. They're extremely thick and thus indeed much harder to hide than a comparatively "thin" UZI ... or MP7. Keep in mind that bolt magazines alone take two rows of caliber 0.75 rounds stacked next to each other, and this is still not including the frame

Posted at

About as wide as a M-60?

Posted at

That ... might come pretty close to it, though this is just guesswork. Also different patterns of bolt pistols will likely have remarkable differences in width, with the Astartes versions of course being the thickest due to the slabs of armour plating around them. Looking at the artworks, other bolt pistol patterns may employ (thinner) armour as well, or they may have more/less delicate inner workings or additional (or missing) machinery for advanced features (such as self-repair, user identification and sightlinks), or their casings may feature intricate ornamentations that will add even more to their profile.

Here's some detail about how a bolter looks on the inside:

bolters.png

Posted at

FotD, as the home brew rules I posted, thanks for the input... though I am tossing them out. The simpler ones of just evenly dividing all shots among those in the target zone is so much simpler.

Oh, just to clarify what said scum player was thinking when he said he was holstering his Bolt Pistol in the small of his back with an MOB

MOB_thmbnl.jpg

You can see the potential problem there. I could see his machine pistols back there outside the belt, hell, if he had stuck to his guns and said that he was holstering his bolt pistol back there outside his pants in horizontal fashion understanding any complications that would have arisen, I would have accepted it. Since that placement is usually for smaller weapons, I got the feeling he didn't quite grasp the weapons size. He was just looking for a way to holster all of his guns so he could quick drawn any one of them without considering each gun for what it was... and he would have spent several days with them holstered as they were -most folks go for at least some small bit of comfort.

Oh, and another SMG holster, an UZI one this time ;-)

uzi_holster.jpg

Imagine having that thing ride on your tailbone ;-p Granted, Bolt Pistols tend not to have as much going back behind the handle, they are about the length from handle to barol end as the uzi depicted, only they are a bit taller, a bit wider, and they have that damndable magazine which loads infront of the handle which complicates it's holstering just a hair.

Posted at

Graver said:

FotD, as the home brew rules I posted, thanks for the input... though I am tossing them out. The simpler ones of just evenly dividing all shots among those in the target zone is so much simpler.

Oh, just to clarify what said scum player was thinking when he said he was holstering his Bolt Pistol in the small of his back with an MOB

MOB_thmbnl.jpg

You can see the potential problem there. I could see his machine pistols back there outside the belt, hell, if he had stuck to his guns and said that he was holstering his bolt pistol back there outside his pants in horizontal fashion understanding any complications that would have arisen, I would have accepted it. Since that placement is usually for smaller weapons, I got the feeling he didn't quite grasp the weapons size. He was just looking for a way to holster all of his guns so he could quick drawn any one of them without considering each gun for what it was... and he would have spent several days with them holstered as they were -most folks go for at least some small bit of comfort.

Oh, and another SMG holster, an UZI one this time ;-)

uzi_holster.jpg

Imagine having that thing ride on your tailbone ;-p Granted, Bolt Pistols tend not to have as much going back behind the handle, they are about the length from handle to barol end as the uzi depicted, only they are a bit taller, a bit wider, and they have that damndable magazine which loads infront of the handle which complicates it's holstering just a hair.

Ah ok. And yeah I agree with your assessment that the first holster would not work. The second I think would (or something similar made for a broader version), and it would even be shorter in length, but it would still be pretty uncomfortable, impossible to Quickdraw (Full-action for anyone lacking the Talent), and not that hard to spot even with a coat on top.

Still the ability to whip out a bolt pistol at a few moment's notice is invaluable even in an urban setting, either just to scare people or to take down erronous Servitors etc.

Posted at

Graver said:

and they have that damndable magazine which loads infront of the handle which complicates it's holstering just a hair.

Now that you mention it - I remember Inquisitor Eisenhorn was given a Marine bolt pistol that apparently took the magazine into its grip, like conventional pistols. An unusual design, and one that would likely sacrifice a few rounds of ammunition (as they cannot be stacked next to each other without making the grip too large to handle), but nothing that couldn't be statted by a creative player. ;)

Posted at

Lynata said:

Now that you mention it - I remember Inquisitor Eisenhorn was given a Marine bolt pistol that apparently took the magazine into its grip, like conventional pistols. An unusual design, and one that would likely sacrifice a few rounds of ammunition (as they cannot be stacked next to each other without making the grip too large to handle), but nothing that couldn't be statted by a creative player. ;)

An "unusual design" is the first sign of heresy. ;-p

Posted at

Graver said:

An "unusual design" is the first sign of heresy. ;-p
:P
Posted at

Friend of the Dork said:

Personally I prefer Shooters where one good hit at centre mass is a kill ;) Although even there volume of fire generally beats single shots, at least at short range. At longer ranger where accuracy matters alot a good old bolt-action K98k Mauser can sometimes outperform the snappy semi-auto Garand rifle user. I guess in DH terms the former has "Accurate" quality.

Hmm what if all pistols such as the stub revolver and laspistol had the same? Would it be overpowered? Just wondering...

Now if Semi auto fire also got 1 hit per DoS, would Accurate damage from pistols be overpowered? Of course assuming you would not get both the Accurate bonus AND extra hits of course!

Might be worth play testing. The same principle was applied in Shadowrun 3 and WoD (I don't know about 4 as I never upgraded). More success equalled more damage. So by the same token more DoS up's the damage.

Though, by two degrees might be the best way. It reduces the likelyhood of grubs rolling an 05 and getting an insta-gib.

Posted at

Graver said:

Lynata said:

Now that you mention it - I remember Inquisitor Eisenhorn was given a Marine bolt pistol that apparently took the magazine into its grip, like conventional pistols. An unusual design, and one that would likely sacrifice a few rounds of ammunition (as they cannot be stacked next to each other without making the grip too large to handle), but nothing that couldn't be statted by a creative player. ;)

An "unusual design" is the first sign of heresy. ;-p

So which Chapter needs purging?

Posted at

Letrii said:

So which Chapter needs purging?
gran_risa.gif
Posted at

Shockwave said:

Friend of the Dork said:

Personally I prefer Shooters where one good hit at centre mass is a kill ;) Although even there volume of fire generally beats single shots, at least at short range. At longer ranger where accuracy matters alot a good old bolt-action K98k Mauser can sometimes outperform the snappy semi-auto Garand rifle user. I guess in DH terms the former has "Accurate" quality.

Hmm what if all pistols such as the stub revolver and laspistol had the same? Would it be overpowered? Just wondering...

Now if Semi auto fire also got 1 hit per DoS, would Accurate damage from pistols be overpowered? Of course assuming you would not get both the Accurate bonus AND extra hits of course!

Might be worth play testing. The same principle was applied in Shadowrun 3 and WoD (I don't know about 4 as I never upgraded). More success equalled more damage. So by the same token more DoS up's the damage.

Though, by two degrees might be the best way. It reduces the likelyhood of grubs rolling an 05 and getting an insta-gib.

Yes of course every 2 DoS only, just like Accurate weapons. Of course if you do this with pistols you have to do it with Lasguns, Autoguns etc. that shoots single shots - it would be the result of the mode of fire rather than a weapon quality.

The actualy weapon quality would still get the bonus to hit for aim shots, and could maybe be buffed further

To properly playtest this it would have to be tried on rank one - and I have a fear it would lead to alot of PC deaths... but let me know if you do!

Posted at

Friend of the Dork said:

Yes of course every 2 DoS only, just like Accurate weapons. Of course if you do this with pistols you have to do it with Lasguns, Autoguns etc. that shoots single shots - it would be the result of the mode of fire rather than a weapon quality.

The actualy weapon quality would still get the bonus to hit for aim shots, and could maybe be buffed further

To properly playtest this it would have to be tried on rank one - and I have a fear it would lead to alot of PC deaths... but let me know if you do!

Remember accurate only grants the extra damage when the weapon is benefitting from the aim action. It's also limited to +2d10. And based on the number of times that I came close to death from being shot in the face in my last DH game, if the shooters got bonuses for lucky shots I'd have not made it to the end of the campaign. Hand cannon (a 65 throne 'average' availability weapon) plus lucky GM? Oh wait, that's 3d10+4 or 20 (average) damage pen 2, probably 15 or so damage to a toughness 3x guardsman in flak. Ouch.

Autofire is king, sometimes unfortunately so, but at least the enemies get to deduct armor and toughness from each hit. They wouldn't get to do that from this HR as they don't get to do when shot in the head with an accurate weapon.

Posted at

Charmander said:

Friend of the Dork said:

Yes of course every 2 DoS only, just like Accurate weapons. Of course if you do this with pistols you have to do it with Lasguns, Autoguns etc. that shoots single shots - it would be the result of the mode of fire rather than a weapon quality.

The actualy weapon quality would still get the bonus to hit for aim shots, and could maybe be buffed further

To properly playtest this it would have to be tried on rank one - and I have a fear it would lead to alot of PC deaths... but let me know if you do!

Remember accurate only grants the extra damage when the weapon is benefitting from the aim action. It's also limited to +2d10. And based on the number of times that I came close to death from being shot in the face in my last DH game, if the shooters got bonuses for lucky shots I'd have not made it to the end of the campaign. Hand cannon (a 65 throne 'average' availability weapon) plus lucky GM? Oh wait, that's 3d10+4 or 20 (average) damage pen 2, probably 15 or so damage to a toughness 3x guardsman in flak. Ouch.

Autofire is king, sometimes unfortunately so, but at least the enemies get to deduct armor and toughness from each hit. They wouldn't get to do that from this HR as they don't get to do when shot in the head with an accurate weapon.

They would of course be limited. But yeah maybe limit pistol weapons to +1d10 tops. Could also limit to aim, but SSs are generally aimed anyway.

I don't mind that Hand cannon's are dangerous. Right now they are unable to critically injure a basic guardsman even if they roll max damage. An Autogun however, especially with manstoppers.... A burst with 6 hits (the equivalent to the 4 DoS needed with aimed hand-cannon shot) can easily kill the Guardsman outright. Could easily do 20 damage AFTER soak, and since you're talking about a lucky GM in the first place... well lets say Manstoppers may not be needed.

As it is now Handcannons are just something you use until you can afford manstopper rounds or bolt weapons, and only for high-armor targets. A astub revolver is just something you use until you can afford or loot anything better, forget about using it as a signature weapon.

Another possible nerf is to limit the extra damage from pistols to short range only.

Posted at

Friend of the Dork said:

An Autogun however, especially with manstoppers.... A burst with 6 hits (the equivalent to the 4 DoS needed with aimed hand-cannon shot) can easily kill the Guardsman outright. Could easily do 20 damage AFTER soak, and since you're talking about a lucky GM in the first place... well lets say Manstoppers may not be needed.

True enough. As an aside atuguns and autopistols are the bane of my existence. They feel like they were accidentally made better than other weapons happy.gif

Posted at

Charmander said:

Friend of the Dork said:

An Autogun however, especially with manstoppers.... A burst with 6 hits (the equivalent to the 4 DoS needed with aimed hand-cannon shot) can easily kill the Guardsman outright. Could easily do 20 damage AFTER soak, and since you're talking about a lucky GM in the first place... well lets say Manstoppers may not be needed.

True enough. As an aside atuguns and autopistols are the bane of my existence. They feel like they were accidentally made better than other weapons happy.gif

I think the offensive word in those names is "Auto." ;)