Unless I'm missing something, none of the SM canon personalities from the tabletop are heavy weapon users. I don't think I've ever seen a sergeant or captain use a heavy weapon either. Most seem to favor a close combat weapon and pistol mix (or ccw and storm bolter if in terminator armour). Is there something inherently uncool about using heavy weapons that keeps SM characters from packing heavy guns? If so, how is this perception carried over in-game? Does the Deathwatch avoid giving the leader role to Devastators? If a Devastator does take on that role, is he expected to grab up pistol and ccw?

There is nothing inheretly uncool about ranged combat in 40k, it is just that most people think melee with all the flashy cc weapons 40k has is much cooler. 40k always has followed the direction where heavy ranged weapons are the domain of specialists or special squads (with few exceptions like captain Thule) while most leader type characters are very generally speaking of the pistol and melee weapon type, makes the whole thing grittier and shows that those leaders have the guts if not brains (perfect fit to the whole imperium of man) to dice it out in melee rather than at range. Other races do have ranged leaders however.

tkis said:

Discounting Psykers, I can only think of Tau and the Phoenix Lord, Maugan Ra.

HappyDaze said:

HappyDaze said:

HappyDaze said:

I think the reason you don't see those personalities using heavy weapons on the table top is because they are suppose to be great leaders and warriors. Among Space Marines those warriors are best at the front lines where their presence inspires their comrades to fight harder.

HappyDaze said:

This is all based on chapter (or even the individual modelers) preferences. I dont think its "canon" for space wolves long fangs to have one of their guys using ccw/bp.

I personally think in the Deathwatch setting...its a little different. There should be no problem with the "Leader" of the squad being the Devastator. In fact it might be more advantageous. From his firing position he would be able to more clearly see how the battle is unfolding and command his units accordingly.

So no I dont see any reason the Devastator in the Squad Leader role to his specified class. If anyone thinks otherwise, and no offense, but they are probably caught in the mindset of leaders (even squad leaders) supposedly being legendary heroic individuals.

Space Marine commanders (Sgt's up) are supposed to be commanding, not laying down rounds on the enemy. Firing a heavy weapon effectively would require a lot of concentration, concentration that should probably be used elsewhere by the commanders. Firing the occasional shot with a lascannon isn't effective firing. If a heavy bolter is required to lay down suppressive fire so that tactical squads can advance, he's not going to be looking in any other direction for the duration of that advance. It's the same in any real military throughout the world.

Every commander or legendary hero would have probably served as a devastator at some point, but the fact that they’re legendary probably meant that they went through the ranks pretty ricky tick as doing legendary stuff generally earns you a promotion and command.

In the Deathwatch however they are all specialists and can use any tool needed to complete the job.
SB

There is one canon character who uses a heavy weapon.
I don't remember his name but he is one of the two main characters of the ultramarines novels and he never leaves home without his signature Heavy Flamer.

Being a legendary hero doesn't mean you went through the ranks fast. In fact said hero wouldnt even technically need to advance ranks at all, a specific heroic action could call upon advancement. For others it takes dozens of years. Ragnar Blackmane went from a Bloodclaw (new Initiate) to Wolf Lord (basically a company commander), while others have been performing heroic deeds yet steadily advancing as the years go by.

imperial guard have a special character of gunner sergeant Harker carrying his heavy bolter

Well there is Lugft Huron as Chapter Master of the Astral Claws who has a heavy flamer in IA volume 9. But that's not really a devastator set up.

Of course, in the table top a heavy weapon toting Space Marine character is a bit of a waste of 4 attacks, higher Ws etc.

Other armies, not so much, there's Eldar, Tau and a IG character.

Maybe if they had more than one character for each chapter in the SM codex they could have fitted in a Imperial Fist character with one or a Salamander.

The next most likely place for a space marine would be Dark Angel Terminator character with an Assault Cannon when they do that codex.

Perhaps there'll be a psy-cannon totting Grey Knight hero in next months new Codex?

Face Eater said:

I think that hits it on the head: It's a waste of points to give characters heavy weapons, because of the way that the game mechanics work. Players go for strong options, and it makes sense to have characters with high attacks et al where they can use them.

Plus: 40k seems to generally encourage people to rush into the middle of the field and roll buckets of melee dice. The game is set up as more of a bucket-o-dicein-HtH-fest than one of laying down solid fire and tactics.

To be honest; it's always aggravated the hell out of me that 40k commanders are best employed in hand-to-hand combat. Because if you want to lead a hundred men effectively in combat, being engaged in brutal close quarter battle is about the last place you'd want to be.

I think the real reason is that GW wants to promote army leaders battling out against each other in melee. Such duels make the fight more personal.

Alex

Plus it's far more in keeping with the style of the setting - Lurking at teh back and directing your forces is a very Tau way of doing things.

Filthy xenos with their balanced and considered ways...

It is because most of the leaders are veterans. SM start in scouts, then go devastator, assult, tac 1st company captain chapter master as a general rule. Some chapters are different (ie: space wolves) but this is the main way chapters function. Now there is no reason why you can'y homebrew your own heros etc, but most (not all) characters tend to be part of the command team and as such would need to be mobile to fit the fighting style of most chapters, however i'm very sure there are someforge masters out there rocking heavy weapons like conversion beamers and the such (i always fancied a sawn off heavy bolter for cool value in DH!)

This is because 40k isn't really a "sci-fi" game. Its a heroic fantasy game with spaceships and guns.

In heroic fantasy, characters lead from the front because it is "heroic". Hiding at the back with a heavy weapon simply is not.

So for "realism" it makes little sense, but for the overall feel of the 40k universe, it makes perfect sense.

Dawn of War 2's Captain Thule uses a heavy bolter, and this was confirmed as fluff and not just gameplay by wargear descriptions.

kenshin138 said:

Many on the forums have suggested taking punitive actions against characters that don't match the feel (such as non-Devastators with Heavy Weapons, or non-Assaults with Jump Packs). I have to wonder if these same enforcers of the "feel" of WH40K would be inclined to take a similar angle with Devastators (or any other heavy weapon user) in the command role.

I think it really depends on how its played honestly. I could see it working just fine, but at the same time I could see it just feeling "wrong". Also would depend on the mission. I wouldn't be opposed to the dev in my group being the squad leader. If he went into Watch Captain or something then he would likely give up his heavy weapon for most missions, perhaps keeping it around "just in case" or something. Hadn't really thought about it much TBH.

kenshin138 said:

That's not too unusual. Most people think of Devastators as being one-dimension gun-luggers. I'm considering making one with Second-in-Command and seeing if I can pull off a high Fellowship leader with a big gun fetish.

I don't think theres anything wrong with having a devastator as the squad leader. The leader isn't playing a tradition Space Marine sergeant role, and isn't supposed to be issuing orders/inspiring to the rest of the group. They are there more to providing a casting vote to a group of individuals and offering specialist knowledge. If the mission is to recover a lost STC, the Tech Marine would probably be chosen to lead the mission, who is hardly a charismatic leader and a CC god in WH40K.

My character is a Librarian, which in a game of 40k would be the HQ choice. We played our first session of the game last night and the Ultramarine Tact with a heavy weapon was selected as the role of leader, simply because we were facing Tyranids (his speciality) and he was the only member of the group with command.

HappyDaze said:

HappyDaze said:

I've been talking to my Dark Heresy group about possible Deathwatch PCs they'd like to play and the guy we have who normally runs the "wise cracking social character" of the group and (whatever rpg we play) normally ends up as the de facto leader is keen to play a Devastator.

I could forsee him still in a leadership role, if anything just because that's our group dynamic. But whether he is the "appointed" KT leader for a mission might be a different thing. There could be times when the Watch Captain assigns another character as the lead but the way the team works he relies upon and looks to the Devsastaor (the informal team lead) for guidance and advice - but still folowwing the chain of command.

Also (and forgive me as I don't have the books to hand) doesn't the rulebook say something along the lines that even though the Devastator role is early in the SMs career the Deathwatch gives seasoned marines the opportunity to return to a role they feel most akin to? In that way a Tactical marine from one chapter (possibly almost ready for promotion to the 1st Company) could be seconded to Deathwatch for a while where he can play the role he felt most akin to - that of a Devastator. Weapons load out isn't always going to be an indicator of seniority.

Plus the PCs in our games should be heroes - stand outs from the ranks of elite Astartes. These are the guys we are telling stories about - they should be MORE special and MORE unique than the already amazing individuals in the Deathwatch. If the Vet Space Wolf holds a thick smoke in his jaws while mowing down tyrannids with "Vera", his trusty Heavy Bolter - and the players and GM are having fun - so be it. It will certainly make for a memorable game.

HappyDaze said:

You basically mean that you're trying to be a bit antagonistic to see if turn about is fair play? Well, if we want to be brutally realistic then we can apply a -20 to Command checks to someone sat back from the fight with a heavy weapon, but then we'd need to apply a -40 to someone who is trying to command a squad while in close combat with three genestealers...

Nobody suggested anything 'punitive' more than limiting the number of heavy weapons in a team, or preventing AMs from carrying Heavy weapons as a matter of course (because Deathwatch recruits CHOOSE their kill-team speciality, and someone choosing to be an AM and then toting a heavy weapon every mission and essentially playing a devestator is absurd, as would be a Dev who left his HB at home and always just took a stormbolter and a jump-pack). That's FAR less punitive than outright nerfing the HB or Devs in general.

Although Devs do have great scope for being team lead, given that Strength is cheap, and one of the Captain abilities allows them to replace Strength with Fellowship, for some utterly bizarre reason.

Nerd King said:

I was thinking about that, but I can't imagine a Grey Knight NOT having a two handed force weapon. They may surpise me with a special PA sergent or a Termy with a psycannon one arm or something.

Siranui said:

Also, what no one's mentioned is that there are bunch of Veteran Devastator Sergents but they tend towards dropping the heavy weapon in favor melee or basic weapons. Possibly because actually communicating and directing fire is more important than firing another heavy weapon and also of course being the guy to somewhat counter that ineveitble assault that would leave your HW useless. Which is fair enough given historical military context too.

But obviously in a kill team where you aren't coordinating with half a dozen other units on parts of the battlefield that are out of site and you don't have a full devastator unit firing behind you that isn't going to take up as much of your time.

There are tons of canons for Devastator characters.

Plasma cannons, lascannons, autocannons...