I know trees block line of sight. So a figure can't attack something on the other side of one.

But if a figure is INSIDE a tree space, and there areno other obstacles around, can they be targeted by a figure with a ranged or magic attack? See the cheesy diagram below. "X" is a tree. "T" is the target, who is inside a tree space. "S" is the shooter figure with a

XXXXXXXxTxX

S

.. Does "S" have line of sight to "T" ?

Thanks

J

Tree space gives shadow cloack to figure on that space.

SanJin said:

Correct, and Shadowcloaked monsters can only be affected by attacks that originate from adjacent spaces. Can you target the monster in a tree with a ranged or magic attack originating more than one space away? Sure, it won't do anything but you can.

Two things:

1) A magic user standing 5 spaces away with Spiritwalker (the RtL version of Spiritwalker) can attack the monster in the tree through someone in an adjacent space

2) Large monsters (Hellhounds, Ogres, Dragons, etc etc) only need to have one space of their 2/4/6 space base on the tree to get Shadowcloak.

Oh Jeez. Shadowcloak. Duh.

Thanks

Big Remy said:

Are you sure about this? The rule for shadowcloak states: figures with Shadowcloak are only affected by attacks made by adjacent figures.

Now if hero A is making an attack with Spiritwalker, to cause his attack to originate from space B (where hero B is located), hero A is still the one making the attack, and he is 5 spaces away (certainly not adjacent) to the target, making the target immune. Unless this was revised in some FAQ?

poobaloo said:

I am 100% sure. It doesn't need a FAQ errata, the Skill card for Spiritwalker says it clearly.

Spiritwalker: When making a Magic attack, you may cause the attack to originate from any space up to 10 spaces (it was nerfed to 5 for RtL) away that contains a friendly figure (but not a familiar). All aspects of the attack (such as tracing line of sight and calculating range) are done as though you were in that space.

And you left out the key, and clarifying part of Shadowcloak:

"A figure with the Shadowcloak ability is only affected by attacks made by adjacent figures. The figure does not suffer any wounds or effects from attacks originating farther than one space away. "

When using Spiritwalker, the attack originates from the space of the friendly figure as if you were in that space . Therefore, magic attacks done with Spiritwalker through a friendly figure by the Hero with Spiritwalker counts as being the Hero being in that space for the purpose of the attack . If the friendly figure is in a space adjacent to a monster in a tree (granting him Shadowcloak), then the Spiritwalker attack counts as originating from an adjacent space and it will hit the monster.

The exact same logic is applied in an example using Spiritwalker and its interaction with Command:

Q: Does a hero using Spiritwalker to attack benefit from Command if his actual space is in range of the commander or if the hero through whom he is spiritwalking is in range of the commander?

A: The attack is made as if the attacker were in the space occupied by his ally , so he only receives the benefit from Command and similar effects if the ally’s square is in range of them. However, the hero is always in range of himself, if he has the Command ability.

Yep. You can also extrapolate the logic from this errata, and project it on the topics situation:

Q: Does a hero using Spiritwalker to attack benefit from
Command if his actual space is in range of the commander
or if the hero through whom he is spiritwalking is in range
of the commander?
A: The attack is made as if the attacker were in the space
occupied by his ally, so he only receives the benefit from
Command and similar effects if the ally’s square is in
range of them. However, the hero is always in range of
himself, if he has the Command ability.

Heh, I like the whole "this dragon now hides behind this itsy bitsy scrub" thing

Yeah, but if you didn't do it the way it is then you get into this whole thing of "well, which spaces of the monster are in the trees and have Shadowcloak, and which don't, and blah blah blah" and then the rule breaks.

As wierd as it is, it sadly has to work that way.

Big Remy said:

Right, but you're NOT in that space. Sure the attack may originate from there, but the attack is still made by a hero that is 5 spaces away. The Magician in this case would still be making his own attack, it just originates elsewhere. And Shadowcloack clearly states the defender is only affected by attacks made by figures in adjacent spaces - that figure (adjacent) is not the one making the attack.

However you look at that, the hero making the attack is not a "figure in an adjacent space". The fact that the attack originates there doesnt change that the person actually making the attack is not adjacent.

Big Remy said:

Where does it say this? All I can find is that it changes from where the attack originates, it does not change the actual location, nor the theoretical actual location (?) of the hero making the attack, nor does it give him a physical presence as if he was that other hero. It just lets him make an attack that originates from somewhere else.

poobaloo said:

In the FAQ , page 6, word by word.

poobaloo said:

Alright.....

Where does it say it? It says it ON THE SKILL CARD.

Spiritwalker: When making a Magic attack, you may cause the attack to originate from any space up to 10 spaces (it was nerfed to 5 for RtL) away that contains a friendly figure (but not a familiar). All aspects of the attack (such as tracing line of sight and calculating range) are done as though YOU WERE IN THAT SPACE.

For the purpose of the attack you are in that square.

I apologize, but how much clearer do you want it to get? The bolded statement means that you are to be treated as being IN THAT SPACE for the attack. Everything about the card argues for you being in that space, as ALL ASPECTS of the attack are done as though you were in that space. There are at least two instances I can think as supporting evidence for this:

1) The FAQ ruling concerning Spiritwalker and Command back it up. If you weren't considered in that space for the purpose of the attack, you wouldn't get the Command bonus when your Hero is outside the range of the command. Copied right out of the FAQ:

Q: Does a hero using Spiritwalker to attack benefit from Command if his actual space is in range of the commander or if the hero through whom he is spiritwalking is in range of the commander?

A: The attack is made as if the attacker were in the space occupied by his ally , so he only receives the benefit from Command and similar effects if the ally’s square is in range of them. However, the hero is always in range of himself, if he has the Command ability.

That part of the answer that is bolded SAYS that you are IN THE SPACE OCCUPIED by his ally. If that space were adjacent to monster with Shadowcloak, you would be considered adjacent. Not just that your attack originates from there, YOU are there for the purpose of the attack.

2) Andira Runehand gets her Pierce 2 on magic attacks when using Spiritwalker and the figure the attack is originating from is adjacent to a monster. If she wasn't considered to be adjacent, she wouldn't get the Pierce 2.

It does not matter that the actual physical figure is X number of spaces away. The Skill clearly states that for all aspects of the attack, you are to be considered in the same space as the friendly figure. Again my apologizes if I come off as arrogant or harsh, but I honestly don't even see how it could be read any other way except by adding rules and assuming things that are not in line with the rest of the rules of Descent.

Even what you are using to make your argument is incomplete because you are again leaving out the crucial part of Shadowcloak. The part that says: The figure does not suffer any wounds or effects from attacks originating farther than one space away.

Combine that originating part with the FACT that the SKill card says that "all aspects of the attack are done as though YOU were in that space" and I can not even comphrehend how it could be taken any other way.

Its why Spiritwalker is so **** good and can turn even the worst mage in the game into a powerhouse.

Big Remy said:

Where does it say this? All it says is it causes the attack to originate from that space. It does not say you are considered to be in that space for purposes of the attack. Your bold and underlined bits are completely made up.

Big Remy said:

Again, where does it say this? You are still not in that square, even for purposes of the attack

Big Remy said:

Again, no need to apologize, this is just discussing a rule. I dont see where it says all aspects of the attack are done as tho you were in that space. And even if that is true, you still are NOT in that space, and Shadowcloak is very specific - it says it can only affected by attacks made by adjacent figures . It matters nothing where that figure's attack originates, or for where he is considered to be by your interpretation. it says it is only affected by attacks made by adjacent figures. This figure, while causing his attack to originate from elsewhere, is not an adjacent figure!

Your statement is basically - there is a rule to clarify a different skill, but we should write our own clarification to affect this one?

Big Remy said:

Why does it not matter? It says Shadowcloak means a figure is not affected by attacks made by figures that are not in an adjacent space. So I'd say it definitely matters where the figure is, since the Shadowcloak rule specifically mentions the location of the attacking figure - not, the space from which the attack originates.

Anyways, I'm not here to argue about it, I was just wondering if there was a clarification, and it seems there is not, so unless you're going to apply one clarification to an unrelated rule, then we should go with what's on the card, no? In any case, you should play it how you like, and we can add this to the list of questions that may someday get answered in a fashion beyond arguing about it.

-mike

Response: This is comical. I'm now forced to assume that you do not actually OWN Altar of Despair that Spiritwalker ( I think that's the expansion) comes in or you have a different version of the card, otherwise you would not have made such a statement. If you do, please , go open the box and take out the card. Take a picture of it and post it, because you have to a have a different version of it than me. Either that, or you are saying things like this just to be an forum troll and get a rise out of me, because it is flat out wrong.

I copied that word for word from the Skill card (except for the nerfed in RtL part). Anyone here on the board can confirm it.

poobaloo: Again, where does it say this? You are still not in that square, even for purposes of the attack

poobaloo: Again, no need to apologize, this is just discussing a rule. I dont see where it says all aspects of the attack are done as tho you were in that space. And even if that is true, you still are NOT in that space, and Shadowcloak is very specific - it says it can only affected by attacks made by adjacent figures . It matters nothing where that figure's attack originates, or for where he is considered to be by your interpretation. it says it is only affected by attacks made by adjacent figures. This figure, while causing his attack to originate from elsewhere, is not an adjacent figure!

Response: First, it is true as that is exactly what it says. You are taking "figures" very very literal, and its breaking down on you. Am I to understand that because the actual physical figure on the game board is not adjacent to the monster figure that has Shadowcloak it doesn't work? Seriously? So if the Skill card said at the bottom "Swap your figure with the ally figures, make the attack, and then swap back" you would agree that it this whole thing works with Spiritwalker? Because that is exactly what the card is letting you do except it doesn't make you do the physical swapping.

As for originating, actually it does because again you are leaving out the second part of Shadowcloak: The figure does not suffer any wounds or effects from attacks originating farther than one space away.

Sure seems to me that "originating" is playing a role here. Look at the interaction of Blast and Shadowcloak in the FAQ.

poobaloo: Your statement is basically - there is a rule to clarify a different skill, but we should write our own clarification to affect this one?

Response: Not even close. My statement is that: This is Rule A (Shadowcloak). This is Rule B (Spiritwalker). If you add Rule A and Rule B together there is no other possible outcome except than you can attack a monster that has Shadowcloak if a Hero has Spiritwalker and there is another friendly figure adjacent to the monster with Shadowcloak. The FAQ clarification concerning Command has a line it that completely support such a conclusion.

poobaloo: Why does it not matter? It says Shadowcloak means a figure is not affected by attacks made by figures that are not in an adjacent space. So I'd say it definitely matters where the figure is, since the Shadowcloak rule specifically mentions the location of the attacking figure - not, the space from which the attack originates.

Response: Again, because your version of the card either does not have it, or you are choosing to ignore it, the statement on the Spiritwalker skill card that says (and again, I copy word for word ): All aspects of the attack (such as tracing line of sight and calculating range) are done as though you were in that space .

What does that part mean to you? I really want to know because it is the entire problem you and I appear to be having.

poobaloo: Anyways, I'm not here to argue about it, I was just wondering if there was a clarification, and it seems there is not, so unless you're going to apply one clarification to an unrelated rule, then we should go with what's on the card, no? In any case, you should play it how you like, and we can add this to the list of questions that may someday get answered in a fashion beyond arguing about it.

Response: Trust me, I really wish we weren't having this discussion either, but I'm trying to avoid having the person who originally asked the question getting confused. I was using that Command clarification to point out that the designer of the game said that (and again, I quote word for word): The attack is made as if the attacker were in the space occupied by his ally . How does this not mean that your Hero is in that space? And no, the fact that the physical figure is not there on the physical board is irrelevant in the case of magic attacks made with Spiritwalker. That is part of the FAQ statement is NOT meant to be specific to Command, that is a general statement about how Spiritwalker works that by all readings is IDENTICAL to what is written on the Spiritwalker card. And I am going with what's on the card. I have repeatedly quoted the Skill card word for word, so again I can only assume you either do not posses it, have a different version than mine or choose to ignore the statement, but regardless that statement supports everything I have said.

I'm fine with having a discussion with you about it, but not at the expense of misleading the original poster.

Big Remy said:

I wouldn't worry. I'm sure it is explicitly clear to everyone else.

Big Remy said:

Now we're getting to the core of the problem In poobaloo, we have a troll at our hands. Here' s a picture postcard of the card:

haslo, THANK YOU for posting the picture. I tried to take one with my camera at home and it came out like hell. This helps. I don't know if I'd throw the Troll label on him yet.

Remy, even if the aspects of the attack are done that way, Shadowcloak says the actual figure must be adjacent. You're not going to convince me that the rule does not need a clarification.

Don't you think that if there'd be an exception to "all aspects", it'd have to be findable somewhere? I mean, the position of the hero in relation to the monster is an aspect of the attack, do you disagree?

(Edit: If you do, continuing this discussion is pretty pointless I think, since all arguments are on the table - add the question to the "unanswered questions" thread and hope it'll be included in the FAQ )

poobaloo said:

Could it go into a FAQ? Sure, just to avoid things like this.

Shadowcloak says the "figure" must be adjacent, not the actual figure. The fact that the card defines that you are in that space for the attack is pretty clear to the vast majority of us.

Feel free to play it as you like until a clarification you like comes along, but you are unintentionally nerfing Spiritwalker in the process.

Let me use the premise given here and draw a logical valid conclusion:

Transformed
“Curse of the Monkey God” is a trap card the
overlord can play when a hero opens a chest.
The hero must roll one power die. If he rolls a
blank, the card has no effect. If the hero player does not
roll a blank, the hero is transformed into a monkey.
When a hero is transformed into a monkey, the player
must immediately replace his hero figure with the monkey
marker. The hero’s turn immediately ends.

Sweep
Sweep attacks affect all enemy figures within melee
range of the attacker. The Sweep ability deals its full
damage to each figure affected by it. If a Sweep attack
is dodged by more than one figure, only one re-roll may
be made (the first dodging player to the attacking player’s
left decides which dice, if any, are to be re-rolled).

Premise:

Sweep affects figures

A monkey is no figure (its a monkey marker)

Conclusion:

Sweep does not affect monkeys

I mean, come on.

(There are plenty of other examples I could pull of, to show you the inconsistent use of the term "figure")

And not to beat a dead horse... but the full rule of Shadowcloak (in regards to RtL) hasn't even been put out here:

(Taken directly from page 30 of the RtL rulebook)

Shadowcloak

A figure with the Shadowcloak ability is only affected by attacks made from adjacent figures. The figure does not suffer any wounds or effects from attacks originating farther than one space away.

While the idea of it not working if the figure is not adjacent is correct if you only take the first line, the second line is pointing out that it is the point of origin of the attack that matters. So this combonation WOULD work.

Nakarashi said:

Trust me, I mentioned it like 3 times, didn't make a dent.