I think this is one of the best threads I have read in a while. A whole lot of ideas that go beyond the Warhammer novelizations of Chaos and Heretics. Hope it keeps going.

-Cynr

a good magister style chr is Lord Blackwood from the latest sherlock homes movie

raislin majere, from the dragonlance novels?

a psykrer/sorcerer who is so consumed with attaining power, he will even sacrifice his own brother; yet, at the end of the trilogy, he proves himself to be more amoral than evil

This will sound weird but it's not actually hard to play unstable characters when you've been mentally unstable quite a few times in your life.

Just sayin'

From Black Library material alone there are a number of great chaos villians who can be used for inspiration. (spoilers included for those who haven't read the books). For the most part, the unplayable hack and slash, psychotic chaos followers are generally those that are in the bottom rung of the hierarchy, the base troopers/cultists/traitor marines etc.

From other sources of fiction, non GW related:

-The heads of the federation in the later Shannara series by Terry Brooke. Most of them see what they are doing as good, and come across very imperial like with their bigotry, warmongers, scheming and murdering

-The valheru from the Midkemia series. A bunch of near demi-gods who act more like a force of nature, destroying all that isn't theirs, taking what they want and generally doing things that are on the genocide/tyrant level

-Again from the Midkemian Series, nearly the whole Dasati race. A race of warlike uber-men who are corrupted by what is essentially a greater demon that uses the sacrificed bodies and life energy of the dasati's enemies and their own women and children to grow in power. Slowly turns them from a expansionist empire into something that Khorne and Tzeentch would be **** proud of, embarrasing most of their champions.

- Clyde Shelton from Law abiding citizen for a Tzeentch follower

-From early Heroes, Sylar. Killing and even trying to destroy the whole of humanity, simply from a feeling of neglectedness and trying to see what makes him and all mutants/humans tick. Easily the search for perfection/knowledge gone wrong on a chaos level.

For the most part, what allows a good "evil" campaign of any sort to survive for long is a level headed GM, and a mature group of Players who are dedicated to playing their parts convincingly and to furthering the plot of the game. I see most evil games being on a similiar, sand box level as Rogue Trader, with the characters furthering evil agendas on a more massive scale than simply hack, slash and make kitten kabobs. All 3 of the past games could even be represented in this one. For Dark Heresy's feel, you could if you want go and make cults, infiltrate other cults to subvert them, chase down inquisitors and undo all the work that has been done in the emperors name. For RT, you can go and take over planets, turn natives to the worship of Chaos, set up trade routes to keep your empire of chaos alive, create/steal ships, have naval battles as your armadas grow and expande the stars. While for DW you could possible be a traitor Marine (not sure if they are in the game or not) or even just a chaos infused bad-ass who uses warp power and his own legion of supermutants to kill waves of civilians in glee. It is really endless what you can do in a evil campaign, aslong as the players and GM are up for it.

Hell, my last non PbP game of Rogue Trader I was in ended up with all of us players joining chaos, with a core of powerful planets pumping out ships (well as close to pumping out as is possible in 40k), taking slaves, with PF being used aswell as influence and a favour track to keep score of what we have done for Chaos and the gods we chose, in any. By the end of the twice a week campaign, my RT was a full demonprince, and the other characters were nearly there as we finished our conquest of the Expanse and were moving into the Empire proper. Was easily the best game I had been a part of for years.

In most of these types of games I always preferred to run them or play in them drawing on the inspiration of Pat Mills, 2000AD and Heavy Metal comics, plus the required reading for all sci-fi fans of Morecock, Herbert and Asimov from my teens when I got into RPG's.
Rather than a case of pure black and white, good vs evil, its more of a case of Authority and Anti-Authority elements which were views ranging from the 70s Gen-X counter-culture movements of the time like Punk, Goth and Anarchists that rejected very strongly the previous culture and society of their parents and grandparents. The music, fashion and attitude would later go on through to the late 80's and 90's spawning other sub-cultures like cyberpunk and industrial movements with the ever present heavy metal spanning throughout the last 4 decades, refusing to die, regardless of how "uncool" everyone thinks it is.

40K had a go at emulating some aspects of those comic books, writers and stories, but never quite had the finesse to capture the whole culture and "shades of grey" that define the difference between a "hero and villain"... instead in its current format seems to have given up and gone for the herp-a-derp, dumb as a brick Chaos Bad, Law Good. Not necessarily a bad thing as it introduces younger people to some interesting aspects of science fiction they may otherwise be ignoring and go on to read more expanded writings on the subject.

But I digress, its all a matter of perspectives-

Judge Dredd, the quintessential Arbitrator is forever battling the forces of anarchy and mutation on his doorstep. He'll never truly win, but he's too **** tough and uncompromising to die either! In the process he'll be judge and executioner to anyone who gets in his way, because if he takes even so much as a step backwards then there's a chance all the order he attempts to maintain will be overrun.

The Strontium Dogs, all mutants with some truly strange (and unholy) abilities, a writ to operate in the world of normal people as bounty hunters wiping out, capturing the worst aspects of humanity regardless of which side they're on. Their motivation is that if they don't continue to fight, they disappear back into the underclass of mutants with little to no rights.

People have already mentioned Nemesis and the ABC warriors having to go head on with the despicable and brutal Torquemada, the grand master of the totalitarian Terran Empire (Think Spanish Inquisition meets KKK)... in between all the ultra-violence that goes on, there is some seriously black and biting satire

So, when you do decide to play or run Black Crusade, it can be as simple or complicated as you want it, the above characters I mentioned are all representatives of their various factions that have some similar traits.
They all-
Belong to a cultural foundation that sees the others as "bad/evil"
Are uncompromising in their fight for their faction
Have involved themselves to such a level that the enemy would never accept them switching sides
Damned if they do, damned if they don't

MKX said:

The character of Dredd changed quite a bit over the years. At the beginning he was all for authority, the law and doing things by the book (and not really giving a **** why the perps are commiting the crimes they commit). He still is, up to a point, but story arcs like Democracy Now and America had him questioning some of his early, strongly-held beliefs, and if anything he became a wee bit "softer" and "humanitarian" (that's relative when considering someone who has killed half a billion people) in his old age. Some good points made about old 40k though; I really got the idea that the ridiculous nature and excesses of the Imperium were being rightly satirised back then - much in the manner that 2000 AD writers pointed out the absurdities of a heavy handed, authoritarian outlook. Modern 40k is rather po faced by comparison. I tend to include quite a bit of satire in my Dark Heresy games though.

Just finished Dragon age 2, lets see

The head of the circle and Meredith - archetypes of corruption at work.

Oh and that party member... lah lah freedom for mages, lah lah templers bad.....BOOM very much a fall from grace through doing 'the right thing'

Now that I think about it... Naked Snake/Big Boss from the Metal Gear series would make a fitting and intelligent follower of Khorne. The state of perpetual war isn't exactly hard to achieve in 40k, but right now the Imperium sends its men off to be killed by the flick of a quill, with bureaucrats deciding how and when they should die.

I just watched Hellraiser and Pinhead would be such an excellent example for a Slaaneshi (-> pleasure), maybe Tzeentchite (-> curiosity) ...

Lynata said:

Indeed, though the Tzeentchein aspect is really just the natural curiosity any good Slaanishi would posses ;-)

The Lament Configuration (puzzle box), it's legend, and Frank's life were explained in more depth in the book, The Hell Bound Heart, then in the movie which makes the Slaanish connection a bit stronger. In the book, and latter elaborated on in the Hellraiser mythose, the box is only ever pursued by jaded hedonists who need to experience "something more" -the most obsessed, perverse, and guilt ridden of which will eventually be transformed into Cenobites by the torturous pleasures inflicted on them beyond the Schism. Frank was one such hedonist, a man who pursued every pleasure, extreme experience, and perversion known to man, compelled each time to seek out something that would top the last experience. Eventually he had "exhausted the trivial delights of the human condition" which led him to seek out the Lament Configuration in order to summon beings who experimented "in the higher reaches of pleasure" bringing about "conditions of the nerve endings the like of which [one's] imagination, however fevered, could not hope to evoke." Of course, Frank wasn't quite ready to transcend the meager boundaries of the flesh and the fallacy of a divide between pleasure and pain and seized on an opportunity to escape the Order of the Gash's ministrations when presented.

Very Slaanish, no?

Indeed so!

I have to confess I only managed to catch the 2nd and 3rd movie so far - I really have to hunt down the first one now... The story of british Captain Elliot Spencer, who eventually became Pinhead, is quite interesting as well though.

Hmm. The Lament Configuration would make for an excellent Chaos/Slaanesh artefact, too ...

Lynata said:

If I end up getting BC I'm half contemplating a 40k treatment of the Hellraiser mythose... and then twisting it more into a hommage then translation as is 40k's heritage ;-)

As #3 goes, I did like the addition of Elleot Spencer and more has been done with his story in the comic series. However, I have to say that the inclusion is about the only good thing #3 had to contribute to the mythose. The rest of it was a rather silly stereo-typical early 90's mindless blood-romp. It also deviated strongly from Barker's original idea and vision for who/what the Cenobites/Order of the Gash was. It started a sad way-too-Judeo-Christian trend that wasn't supposed to be there, a trend that #4 (Bloodlines) picked up and went screaming with in a way too Hollywood-ized fiasco that should never have been made. Originally, the Cenobites weren't evil, they were beyond such things. They weren't out to be evil, sew destruction, or any of that -you solve the puzzle and they come to give you what your soul cries out for, experience beyond mortal flesh. About the only real connection they had to Judeo-Christian beliefs, or any belief structure for that matter, is it was theorized in one story (getting back to the Barker roots) that various religions concepts of hell or torment in the afterlife might have sprung from them and the rituals surrounding The Puzzle.

2 was a good addition, albeit an over the top cheesy kind of good addition. The first and original is still the best of the lot.

As the movies go, there's actually 8 in the series, though the number that actually count will vary from fan to fan.

#5 (Inferno) receives a lot of hate because it deviates from the established format of #3 and #4, which I felt was a damned good thing. It reestablished Pinhead as a more neutral force of nature as opposed to Teh Evols. It is also criticized a bit for diverging from or not adding to any larger over-arching plot. It doesn't involve, pick up, or lay to rest any of the threads left by the previous 4 movies and doesn't really involve Pinhead which a lot of fans feel every movie should. It's a self contained story in and of it's self, but again, I see that as a good thing and, as stories go, it really not a half bad one at all. It's also more of a mystery and less of a slaughter-fest or survival type of situation where a detective has to figure out just what the hell is going on as his life falls apart around him. It focuses more on the Puzzle, those who would seek it, and what happens when it is solved and less on crazy cenobites rampaging around slaughtering folks. In all, it is much closer to the original story in theme, feel and substance; fans of #3 and #4 tend to hate it while fans of #1 tend to like it (or at least not hate it avidly).

#6 (Hellseeker) Reintroduces Kristy in a very twisted tale in the same vein as #5. Again, as it was written and executed in a similar vein to #5 and was received about the same by the fans. It's closer to the original story then 3 and 4 and fans of those two tend to hate it more then fans of 1 and 2.

#7 (Deader) in which a reporter stumbles across a strange cult in Bucharest comprised of nihilistic kids who commit suicide but never die, was actually just a movie script titled "Deader" that the film execs thought would sell better if it was a Hellraiser movie. So they rote in a 3rd act, tossed in some cenobites and the puzzle box, slapped Hellraiser on it, and called it a day. It's really not a good movie but passable I guess. Again, those who liked the more slasher styled Hellraisers hated this one with the only ones who liked it coming from the fans who liked #1 and the latter installments.

#8 (Hellworld) is someones mental abortion that, again, the film execs thought would possibly sell maybe if they tagged Hellraiser onto it. So they did, tossed in some Cenobites, and go! Also, it involves virtual reality (some some such) and fallows the mindless slasher rout, but not even the fans of the Hellraisers that took that direction seem to rarely have anything good to say about this one... it's just bad, really bad.

Above the movies, I'd recommend checking out the novella, The Hellbound Heart if you're interested in such. It's the essence that the good movies are trying to capture, so why not go to the source, huh?

I find it generally a good idea to ignore any but the first two Hellraiser movies. The other movies have their moments but they are few and far between. The novella is great as are the comics, if you can find them.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Cenobites are the foot soldiers of Leviathan who is all about order, not chaos.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Just replace order for chaos and chaos for order ;-p Or perhaps recast Pinhead and the cenobites as Inquisitor Pinhead and his Acolytes XD Still, like most anything, a direct translation of 40k <-> Hellraiser doesn't quite work, but the bones are there to transported over and built upon.

I'd toss 5 on that stack as well, but that one seems to be hit or miss amongst the fans, some love it, some hate it.

Oh, and BOOM studios has picked up and is releasing a new Hellraiser series and the original 90's series has been collected and re-released in a TPB, so it shouldn't be that hard to find. Good stuff!

The novel might indeed be a good idea - I'll be sure to put that on my list!

I've just stumbled into all of that by sheer chance (being up late and watching the "right" channel), even though the name of the franchise was of course something I've heard from time to time. That said, I can't believe watching it had eluded me for so long. Must be the same kind of timing I've exhibited with the Song of Ice and Fire books. On the other hand this at least spared me the tortorous gaps between releases so far. :b

Graver said:

Don't get me wrong, the more I think about it the more I have this feeling that a Slaanesh/Cenobite type character may very well be the first thing I make when this book hits.

Good idea getting some examples from media for people to use as examples. In addition to reading the 40K novels focusing on the Chaos Space Marines I have a few examples that might be useful. I suggest interested individuals also look up the tropes used in the series and characters that you want to emulate to distille the elements you want.

Darth Malgus (Star Wars: Old Republic: Decieved) - Darth Malgus represents traits that would make for a fine Khornite or Undivided warrior, a man of uncompromising honor and courage yet also a storm of fury in combat who seeks improvement through comflict.

Any Sith from the Darth Bane trilogy.

Darth Caedus (Star Wars: Legacy of the Force) - A blend of arcane mastery, manipulation, diplomacy and combat skill that any Tzneetchian, Slanneshi or Undivided Chaos Sorcerer Lord should aspire to.

Shockwave (Transformers) - The cold and calculating logic, utterly devoid of compassion; emotion or concionce, exibited by the Decepticon mad genius could be used to make a chilling Tech-Priest of the Dark Mechanus or Obliterator.

Accelerator (To Aru Majutsu no Index) - THis one would be kind of an iconoclast as he is technically a pacifist. The thing is that Accelerator seeks to become so powerful, ruthless, sadistic and brutal that the mere thought of challenging him becomes utterly ludicrous. That might be a challenge but could be fun. I could see a Slanneshi taking such a stance.

Shidou-sensei (Highschool of the Dead) - This guy took over a group of refugees and turned them into his own personal cult in a couple of days after a zombie apacolypse. Someone willing to exploit dispair, play on the hopes and fears of the crowd and sexually manipulate others could learn a lesson or two from Shidou-sensei and be an effective Apostate Preacher.

Alucard (Hellsing) - The sheer confidence about one's own power, utter ruthlessness and the fact that he knows he is a monster and is perfectly fine with it make Alucard a good example of ideas for a Chaos warrior. Also the SS major who is the big villian and his "I love war" speech make for a good example of the devious, warmongering madman.

Barrigan Lundisborn (Bleach) - The second espada's ability to rot his enemies to bone and utter arrogance regarding his invincibility could make for a very fun Nurglish Sorcer Lord, especially if the sorcery abilities let you play up using decay as a weapon.

Can you play a moraly good character?

No.

Well I guess you could-ish. But would they really be chaos, or atleast chaos for long.

I'd personally answer "Define what you mean by a morally good character".

Cause, really, that can be quite tricky to tell in the WH40k setting.

Morality is entirely subjective on the society and culture a person grows up in. Most rogue traders kill off their siblings to prevent another potential heir to their warrant, most feral world tribes would find the concept disgusting about killing their kin, but by the same account probably quite happy to eliminate potential rival tribes over a food source, to the point theyre extinct.

MKX said:

But you can play a rogue trader that is a moraly good person that doesn't do that kind of questionable stuff.

Moraly good person like today moraly good person. I'm not interested in moral relativistic justification why most chaos is not evil.

thor2006 said:

That's not exaclty what I thought. My problem is, a certain number of chaotic followers will act because they think what they are doing is "good". Well, if I throw away this "relativistic" thinking...

I think someone can be corrupted by Chaos and do morally "bad" things against his will, or worse, not be aware of what he's really doing (hallucinations...).

If someone from the 21st century could be a chaotic follower...Well, I'd say yes, cause our moral isn't exactly the shiny white knight in shiny armor, but you'll say I'm being all relativistic again

I think people have missed the point slightly that Chaos isn't ultimately evil, it is pure insanity. The evil comes from the cultists and other followers who willingly give up their humanity for short term gains. The Imperium by comparison has nothing on Chaos. A good portrayal of a bad guy should reflect that insanity. Think the joker or hannibal lector for starters and go from there.