I´m not sure if this is trolling/flaming, if it is: mod´s I´m sorry just delete this and well be fine.

Okay I´m trying to wrap my head around the mechanics of this game and I seem to be impaling myself on the pointy bits.

I hope some of it has been lost in translation and or is something that will be fixed in future versions of the system itself.

To clarify maybie it´s just my GM or it really is the system.

Ok with a little luck on the stat rolls and by picking the right class I can create a character who can use 3 diffirent methods to fly, but my buddy who is a Agile warrior guy is having a hard time Using his acrobatics skill to create favorable positioning versus a single opponent.

I have no idea why but something about the above statement just bugs the hell out of me: It is quite possibly the three ways to fly or that target numbers for "secondary" skills are so insane that it´s anybody´s guess why everybody doesn´t shell out 2 creation points to be able to fly or levitate(which removes a lot of die rolling).

I´m really trying to like the system but the more I read the more I prick myself on spiky bits.

Anybody who can help me see the merits of the system is awesome, but as it is right now I´m almost ready to call it quits.

Thanks in advance.

you point out something most people who have played some time still have headaches with : the classes are very unbalanced : the users of Psy, magic and Ki have far more possibilities than the shadow, acrobatic warrior, thief ...

there's no real answer as to how a non supernatural class can achieve even the smallest spell/psy/ki power can achieve, even having 250 in a secondary skill ...

I think each GM must find a way to make those "non supernatural" classes interesting

I worked on a panel where I changed the costs of Use of Ki and the martial knowledge gained each level to make the "non supernatural" classes be able to develop something more than skills

When you know the magic/invocation system there's many ways to grant a character something supernatural : he can have a familiar (of course there will be a summoner involved), a spell can grant him powers ...

I just read your post again, and skipped some of it when first read

The main thing in the world is that the Church forbids use of any "magic" power and will hunt and kill anyone who uses it. So "not using" any magic/psy/Ki power will help you avoid being burned by the Church, but will make you a bland character that will die fast in any confrontation against supernatural creatures.

There's a lot of hypocrisy in the world, as many "saint" people use magic or Ki, because the Church decided these people were "gifted" by god and are allowed to use these powers. And if you go very far from Abel (or not that far in the Azur alliance), the Church has less power/influence, and use of magic may not cause any problem, it may cause fear and violence though.

The truth is that skill based characters in most games are often less powerful. But really they are less powerful in a fight, and will have more to do in less combat driven situations.

As for fighters that don't hav3e much by the way of supernatural abilities, I think Anima leaves them plenty of room to be powerful.

Even without supernatural abilities, most classes can become pretty powerful.

A way to obtain a very powerful character, for example, is Elan. It gives access to exceptional powers without being a mge/psy/technician.

For example I rolled a Weapon Master who is a Level 1 monster. Give him a Level 3 Artifact Full Field Plate Armor (and enough wear armor), starting wealth (level 1 sufficient) to buy Weapon+5 and Shield+5, Level 3 Elan Noah (take Resistant, Inhuman, Ignore Penalties, Dark Power, and Equipment). Let's assume the Level 3 Artifact Armor should be something ranging between +15 and +25 with some extra power. Equipment will make the Axe and Shield +15 Items, instead of +5, which is really great. Also, should the guy reach level 70 Elan, he will gain 2 very interesting powers (In The Face of Adversity, and War Aura).

A bit of Martial Mastery might also be useful (just to make sure your character gets Aura Extension soon enough to hit ethereal stuff). This Weapon Master was rolled prior to the GM toolkit. Believe it or not, landing even a single damage point on this guy won't be easy for anyone. Now with the GM toolkit I'd also try to make room for some additional HP for Level (I have the spanish version, so I don't know the name of the relative advantage in english...). Anyway, a weapon master with Level 3 in that ability will reach +50HP per level...compared to the usual +5 most characters get...it's something else. All considered Weapon Master are the best tank around and can really Tank like no-one else. Also, very soon the Ki Dominion book will be out in english. It offers tons of new "ways" of spending MK points, which may be interesting for those classes that gain too few MK points to become techniques users, like the Ars Magnus, special combat techniques with MK costs ranging from 10-100. Even a Weapon Master without Martial Mastery may have access within few levels to an Ars Magnus and do exceptional things. That book also contains a few new modules, giving even more interesting options (especially for weapon masters who pay half for them).

The Ki Dominion book, also offers new interesting advantages known as Blood Pacts. Having a Blood Pact increases by +1 the "Level" of the character for the purpose of experience needed for level-up (in a way similar to supernatural races), but they are really powerful characteristics that grant really exceptional powers.

As a general rule, I believe Warriors, Acrobatic Warriors and Shadows (25MK per Level) should aim to buy as many Ki (and/or Nemesis) Abilities as possible, since they can really give an edge in combat and/or a few Ars Magnus. The same goes (although to a lesser extent) for classes that gain 20 MK per level.

As for the rest, Rogues should be based on stealth abilities. A very powerful rogue can simply sneak behind the strongest enemy and cut his throat clean during sleep...As a master, I wouldn't even require dice roll for the attack (I would for the stealth check and stuff, of course). Simply put: rogues (at least pure ones) are nor conceived for frontal fight. The balance of classes actually resides on the shoulder of the GM. Some classes might be very powerful in combat compared to others, but once in the city where you need some intrigue and diplomacy the "weaklings" should become the handy ones.

It's entirely up to the GM make adventures where characters find their usefullness independently from their damage potential. Manuals offer plenty of tools for that.

In the end, I gave up on this system, though I did like bits of it, for 2 reasons:

a) The most basic rules of combat are too complicated. True, they allow for a lot of variety in moves/tactics, but the time required to complete each bit is far too long. Result: combats that are meant to be fast and dynamic are boring and headache-inducing, unless your players like doing math the whole time. Add in the supernatural and...

b)Character creation can give you migranes. 4 hours creating a character is too long.

For combat I must tell you're not entirely mistaken. Turns are quite long...and tend to be boring despite the system allows very spectacular stuff.

Supernatural isn't a problem in the system in my opinion. If you can't find a way to balance players' usefullness, it's not a system fault, I believe.

As for character creation, believe it or not, it requires far less time once you get accustomed to it. I rolled several sheets by now, and a Level 1 character doesn't require me more than one hour to roll.

True. But that first time in character creation is always what remains in your head. It's true that by myself I can probably have a character done in less than 40 min, but with a group of 7 players, *sigh*.

For the supernatural, it wasn't so much that it is unbalanced as it is more an extra set or rules you need to remember. It also gets boring for those mages who have to spend the whole time charging up for spells, especially since all of the other turns are so slow.

I am sad to hear that you are giving up on the system. (though I guess I shouldn't really care) But most of your complaints stem from the fact that the game is new. Character creation and combat always take a while to learn. Anima is more so, not because the systems are complicated, but because they are more different from standard d20 or other systems you may be famillure with. That being said, systems in general come in two flavors (well three) systems that try to simulate things well, or systems that try to make things go quickly and easily. Anima is definately one of the first, and that is why I like it.

If you want the other kind of game try D&D. (It really isn't that simple, but most of us are famillure with it) I actually find D&D 3.5 to be neither simple nor a good simulation. D&D 4E is a terrible simulation but is very simple.

But when I play a game I like to come up with my characters as if they were from fiction and then try to fit them into the framework of the game. Many of the simpler systems don't allow this type of character creation. you pretty much get to play the type of characters that the system is designed to handle.

You may point out that Anima has its own magic systems that you are pretty much forced to use the systems as they are written, but I would argue that the magic systems in Anima are more a world consideration. And the systems model the fluff rather well. In D&D I feel more like the fluff models the rules.

So that might have been a rant on stuff you didn't care about. But what I guess I am saying is that different people have different play styles. Anima matches my play style very well. But it might not math your play style. But my only recomendation would be to make sure you really know what you are giving up before you abandon it.

I would also point out that Dominus Exxet and Arcana Exxet (the second available in Spanish PDF) make the powers much more of an "as you like it" scenerio. Heck, dominion techniques are already "do-it-yourself".

I don't have that much of a problem getting into an RPG, as others seem to (not trying to brag...). And I don't entirely appreciate your assumption that I am solely familliar with d20 systems (i.e, DnD 3.5). And it's true that Anima does allow a lot of personalisability (hope I spelt that right...), in other words, of creating what you want to create. And it is true that the rules follow the fluff/real life quite faithfully, but the downside is that it leads to too much dice-rolling,, and as a friend of mine said, ''in combat you are less interested in the dice-rolling than in the result of combat itself. What you want is results''. I would tame that with some good descriptions from the GM, but he is right in the implication of that statement: rules need to be simple in order to keep the game fast-paced and interesting, and therefore don't need to mimic life realistically. As a result, although I do like the system, I also realise that it just isn't playable, unless dice-rolling for 2-3 hours is just your thing.

As a better system, I would point to stuff like Dark Heresy, though that does have the problem of being limited to the 40k universe, and that you have to know it to make it worthwhile

Honestly, I never had that problem. Anima certainly runs faster than D20 whenever I've played it. Indeed, the thing that really delays combat in Anima is the amount of thought people put into their actions, thanks to how dynamic combat can be. However, I also know that two gamers might look at two different and perfectly good games and each may like one and hate the other. It matters more that it works in tandem with the way you do. If the system doesn't work for you, being all slow and clunky as you play it, it's possible that it just isn't for you. Not much more need for discussion on that point. However, for a lot of people (at least 11, totaling the number of people I've played Anima with, and certainly most of the people on the Cipher Studios Anima forum, of those who play the RPG), it runs smoothly and efficiently.

TheTenth said:

Actually that's not quite true - if you have access to the Gaia book and the GMs Toolkit, you will find Advantages that can be bought with CP which, if the player is smart, can be bought to stack up a very formidable natural resistance to Psi or Supernatural. The other way of course, is to use the player-made rules for Artifact creation, and spend the CP on some items that will give a natural character an advantage against the 3 Powers.

Imagine a robe granting complete invisibility (even to magic senses and spells)? Add an extra sense to that like hearing, and even a Ki master can die from a knife through his kidneys.

How about a ring granting the unlimited use of Psychic Illusion and Hide Matrixes...? bearing in mind that no one knows they are dealing with an illusion unless they have a reason to expect its, or that a normal person could possibly have such a power (very unlikely). At any rate, they do not get a resistance roll unless combat is involved. For a smart character, there would never be a need...

There are plenty of other ways to go about things too, like simply spending the 1CP on See Supernatural, and being very resourceful.

I'll have to agree with Turies on this one. I am playing the game specifically because my GM wanted to run it. While I won't say that the game is outright bad (clearly quite a few people like the game), having played a number of both d20 and non-d20 games, and even created a few table tops myself, I can easily identify some critical problem areas for Anima. As has been pointed out, the two theories work like this:

Either you simulate campaign flavor / experience with your rules, limiting what players can do to what seems feasible and creating rules that, while less fun, more accurately represent the world you're creating, or...

You create a game that focuses more on fun than flavor, with the end result of rules that don't necessarily make sense mechanically, but still provide a good time at the table.

Anima is, in my best assessment, caught between the worst ends of both. First, let me qualify that statement by saying that I am new to it, but I have read (many times, in fact) MOST of the core rulebook, and many of the mechanics seem to be wholly arbitrary - ever look at the failure rates for certain actions (e.g., summoning?) - or designed without the forethought of how long such a rule will take effect at the game table (I'm looking at you, combat table). Swinging a sword at a heavily armored opponent should do less damage, and it makes sense to rule as a percentage. The reason many other games specifically don't do this, however, is because consulting a table takes so much longer than "damage - damage soak." Might only be a few seconds longer, but multiply that by the number of attacks per round per combat per adventure per campaign. You're losing a LOT of time that way.

Also, as power gamers exist and they're not going away anytime soon, many games have resorted to giving more fleshed-out descriptions of skills / abilities that would otherwise provide tempting opportunities to cheese. The spell section is RIFE with inadequate entries, practically begging abuse, even against the most conservative of GMs. Creation magic, for example, allows you to level yourself up with the Chimera spell, but what about your non-mage allies? What if you decide not to share the power? Using the spell reinforce magic, even a 10 or 11 intelligence wizard can get some serious extra power out of that spell. And then there's the issue of balance, of which there seems to be none in this game. Not between classes, spell books, secondary abilties, presence levels, or even similar spells. I have dozens more examples of things like this, but you see my point.

This, again, does not make the game inherently bad, just very unpolished. Nor am I saying anything like "non d20 sucks!" I simply understand the sentiment of the original post. Hopefully, Fantasy Flight Games will release another version of the game that addresses (in a serious and thoughtful way) game balance, and attempts to tackle the rather significant issue of the organization of the core book, which seems to have been randomly composed. If you don't believe me, look at the Create Energy spell for Creation magic, then find the energy table in the book. Yup, it's listed under the "States and Accidents" Chapter.

Actually, many of the problems you point out are intentional, and not so problematic as you think. Chimera is a one-shot gain levels spell that makes you the victim of any Summoner who wants to Bind or Banish you (yes - you're a BBW, that means Summoners can do their magic to you). Additionally, it tends to make you stick out like a sore thumb (you're not nearly so human as you once were).

And, indeed, I do not see your point. The game elements actually mesh very well. The problem is that every person sees the part of the system that "clicks" most easily in their mind, and they think it's the most powerful thing in the world (I was the same way with Mentalists for a while). In fact, it isn't.

Even Secondary Abilities are phenomenally useful, but only see their real functionality in the classes designed to specialize in them. Of course, their functionality is mostly out of combat, and therefore is worthless to a large number of gamers. On the other hand, in games where out-of-combat scenerios are common (which Anima is designed around - if you look at the costs of getting into a fight, including LP, Zeon, Ki, etc., for a knock-down drag-out fight, you really can't support your standard D&D dungeon crawl nearly so easily), those focused in Secondary Abilities will find they enjoy some considerable advantages (and, when the numbers get really high, those advantages can be overwhelming).

I can see both sides of this argument. I would like to first point out that the spell chimera is a lvl 80 spell and to get that spell you have to have an int of 12 an had to speed all of his magic lvl in creation only. Now if you follow the rules normal humans max out at 10 unless you have some type of advatage or gm allows progress beyhond 10 with attrabutes when lvling.

Now onto the rest of the thread. I have had plenty of d20 and other games in other systems such as whitewolf, d20, dark harasy, ect take 1 to 2 hr just becuse of bad dice rolls and playing with people that love to use complex stradagies in combat. As someone who has run anima only one time (would have ran it for longer than a mouth but got to love work changing schudles and the work to make creatures is very time consumioning) it might just be me but i have had combate take only 20 mins before in anima. And with how LP recovery goes a dungon crawl is so out of the question for this type of came. I ran the adventure out the gm kit and durring the fight on the blimp i almost had a TPK(total party kill) due to the back to back fights.

I have to say the funniest thing out of my group when i tried to run my plot for anima is that i had a tech, ranger, tao, and a mentalist warrior. I did allow the nephilem to trie it out and the only person that could see supernatural beings was the human ranger. the tech could affect spirits but he coul not see them and the ranger who could not affect them could see them. So think about that for a sec. Just becuse you use ki, pys, or summon things dose not mean you can see spirits or outher supernatual creatures that are no in a matiral body. Only some one with the gift or see supernatural adv can.

Also i think the reason the acrobatic dif for geting flanking and behind are so high keep in mind a it is an oposed roll and that the neg for the defender are so high -30 to def for flank and -80 for behind. as an acrobatic warrior that wanted to pull this type of move off i so would have spent like 100 dp if not more on this skill alone. giveing me a base of 50+class(+10 per lvl)+agi(if they have a 10 in agi then +15) +natural(agi again+15) of cousre for a finial total of around 90. at this point if a warrior had the same skill lvl; which its going to cost him min of 150 dp and a 10 in dex to get a 95, but its still going to come down to who rolled better wich is the case in any oposed roll. I would realy have to see the acrobatic warrior and how he made him. But for the most part i would say that its a new game to you and as like any new game it takes some getting used to.