Sebashaw said:

There was one story in which I've actually seen the 'Astartes decadence' stand up to its reputation from the fluff instead of the usual whiteknighting: "Know Thine Enemy" from Gav Thorpe. It's part of the Dark Imperium anthology. I can only recommend it to anyone roleplaying a Marine - just as much as I recommend the entire book, as it gives a pretty good glimpse onto several different but typical aspects of the 41st millennium (Navy, Guard, etc).

Lynata said:

Your character building fu has some math flaws

The specialized sniper whose job is sniping, built from DH, will have a high BS (close to 60 for a ranged specialist), + accurate weapon (+10% to aim) + two rounds of aiming (+20%) and have more like a 80-90% chance of hitting. Throw in a surprise round and your first shot chance is closer to 110-120%. The talents you pick up using DH rules would be Deadeye Shot graduated to Sharpshooter to remove the called shot penalty, Crack Shot for your crit bonus, Marksman to eliminate the long range penalty (or a scope + full round aim), Mighty Shot to give you the +2 bonus to damage, Rapid Reload so you can start aiming agian on round 2. You also engage them at 450m, extreme range, which give you more time to keep hitting the Marines while they locate and return fire. This would be a sniper specialist, which is what it should take to wound a space marine (or a RF rule for NPCs to represent dumb luck). Now in DH called shots didn't take extra actions, and in RT and DW it does, so that changes the action after the start of combat and would neccesitate the sniper to spend an extra half round or so to hit him in the head again.

Lynata said:

Works perfectly for what though? Ascension is what happens when you become the Inquisition, when you graduate from being a regular person to being an Agent of the Throne. Your focus is no longer on a cult on a planet or in a city, but the cult in the whole of the sector. You're no longer base level folks anymore, and the challenge, threats, etc. all have to scale up with you.

Ascension and DW suffer from what all RPGs suffer from, is what happens when you break out of the upper level of the base game. At the high end of DH you're pretty friggin powerful, so you have to take that to the next level. Some people don't actually like high end games, and that's okay.

I will say that I myself was in your spot when I first started reading DW, everything seemed way over powered. Once I got past the point of the game, and really looked at what a 13k xp level character is supposed to be do when all of that xp is geared towards killing things, I felt a lot better.

Lynata said:

Other folks within the universe can pull of epic feats, but in an RPG that level of epic-ness should be somewhat limited by a characters' base XP. If DW started at level 1 like DH the stuff they halve would be waaaay over powered. For the level they are however, it's not that far off.

As for 'sepcial rules just for them' I don't think hordes were invented just to make a challenge for space marines, it was to allow space marines to do what they were described as doing in the novels, which is engage and defeat squad and company sized elements of the enemy and come out on top. Spending 30 rounds of combat to do so would be tedious at best. TBH, I expect to see something similar to hordes for the Guardsman expansion for DH, you have to create some kind of mechanic to represent mass combat without bogging things down.

The Epic level of gaming isn't mutually exclusive. I can think of two or three other ascended career choices in Ascension that can compete with Marines in the combat arena- particularly those that already get unnaturals themselves. Most of the classes have trouble with combat, but blow the marines out of the water when it comes to skills- it sucks the GM has to deal with the balance in that way, but that's kind of what you get when you play the adept genius and try to run around with guys in PA and Heavy Bolters. You're right, it's not seamless, but it's not all that difficult.

Again, the Unnaturals are wonky, but they don't outright break anything. If it ruins your theme, tone them back. With luck when version 2.0 comes out for 40k, we'll see an improvement here.

Sebashaw said:

Again, I had the exact same issue when I first picked the book up, but in practice these things seem to sort themselves out and actually work. The Marines are super powerful, and so their enemies are also in turn super powerful. It is an epic fight, but you're fighting epic enemies. You're the marines from the book, where a single battle company can hold out against insurmountable odds.

If you don't like high level or high power campaigns (which is a totally legit point of view), I would honestly advise sticking with DH.

Fistfighting a hive tyrant sounds really appealing in contrast of playing a space capitalist on a 20 000+ manned ship chasing profits.

Why is this topic along with Mark of Xenos becoming DW vs DH/RT ? Just get over it. If you can't, I'm sure there is a appropriate place to rant about the discrepancies between the games.

To the OP:

I don't think that it is a good idea to give power armour to PDF companies in the first place. What if they rebel under some kind of alien or daemonic influence? You then have a big problem in putting them all down, especially if it happens in some hive where it isn't that easy to kill them off all at once. Better to have more robust and easily replaceable troops. Because, losing such a powerful army would be disastrous, especially because power armour is not that easily produced or replaced.

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

Because some folks are still getting over the differences in combat powers between the games. And then others of us that like the setting/system are trying to convince them otherwise so they can enjoy it as much as we do.

Your comments regarding the danger of creating a PA'd force I think would be reasonable given the nature of administrators in the Imperium- I don't have trouble imagining guard or pdf units being denied equipment to keep it out of enemy hands.

But wouldn't that be the potential case with any elite force, like the Storm Troopers or the like?

Charmander said:

Well, I am an adept deep down and a fierce administrator, so I would deny them that . I make my players to fulfill Departmento Munitorum requisiton forms sometimes, so yeah, I am quite strict about equipment! Joking. Although we did make couple of forms and do intend to use them for requisitioning equipment that way for roleplaying purposes.

Potentially, yes. But you had it quite spot on in the initial comment. Falling into enemy hands is the biggest problem. And I imagine that a hundred or more PDF's armoured that way wouldn't just hang around in the barracks shooting at apples with bb guns. They would most likely become planetary governor's or who knows who's private army.

I don't think this is the place for scepticism.

This was a time for Marine fans to come together and celebrate their favourite eight foot supermen.

I wanted a celebration of how cool Space Marines are. Total buy in to the hype. Have some fun with it.

Marines should operate on a higher level than any unaugmented human. No mortal man should even come close. As it is it is like rating Batman a 4 in strengh and superman 5. Sure, he is stronger, but he is a pretty piss poor superman.

And seriously, who care if Marines are immune to small arms. 40K is awash with heavy weapons.

Charmander said:

I won't deny that, but two things:

• your two rules of aiming (a) require the Marines to be visible for this amount of time and (b) will only confer this bonus on the very first attack with all others "only" being +10
• even more importantly, such a long range engagement requires the Marines to carelessly walk over a relatively flat surface with no objects obstructing the sniper's sight - I was assuming an urban ambush (think industrial area, higher ground etc) and cannot imagine what a Deathwatch Squad does in the midst of the desert or wherever you have half a kilometer of free sight

Charmander said:

Well, for one, I would not call Sisters of Battle "base level folks" in any case (tbh I still think they were introduced too early), and I'm sure there are some other careers who would have deserved better as well, at least after having progressed past a few of the initial ranks. Other than that Ascension still offers the same range of equipment, does it not? Sure, all characters gain new talents and skills, some of which are quite powerful I imagine, but the tools themselves effectively stay the same.

I don't want to bring up the bolter discussion again as there's already a long thread in the other forum, but I would have appreciated if Ascension (apart from making the characters more important) would be about more than "just" a bunch of new levels. Of course this is merely personal taste, but in my opinion the "character progress balance" between available equipment and dozens upon dozens of skill and talent advances just seems a bit off and more about cluttering up my character sheet than truly making my character feel more unique. And what perhaps disturbs me more: I do not want the character to become an uber-awesome Mary-Sue able to perform one legendary stunt after the other - but if you have more powerful armour or weapons allowing something in this direction it suddenly feels way more believable (that said, the Vindicare really seems to have come off best in the whole transition, also having gained his signature weapon with impressive stats). I realize that this is probably a strange way of looking at things...

Charmander said:

Ah, that wasn't just about Horde rules, but also referring to Squad/Solo Mode, Demeanours, etc pp. - it's possible that some of that stuff may have found its way into the other publications would they have come after DW, but I can only judge (and use) the products as they stand.

Charmander said:

You may be right ... generally, I really like the idea behind them (and the image of "epic combat" they promise), even though I maintain they are not applicable to every opponent.

The Cardinal has a point, though: We should continue this over in the existing thread in the DH subforum. I'm way too easy to distract from the topic at hand when it comes to this particular subject. I don't even know how we ended up here again.

I likely also missed a lot of the initial discussions when Deathwatch was still new due to my late join date (I was already around on the old BI forums but for some reason the new forum didn't let me register ... until I tried again a month or so ago) - you could say I have to catch up. *coughs*

>>>We should continue this over in the existing thread in the DH subforum<<<

I generally consider Dark Heresy a waste of three years and a lot of paper that could have been better spent on talking about how awesome Space Marines are, but saying it is rude so I try to leave them to their fun.

With that said...

The crux of my point is that if you want a grunt to be a threat to a Space Marine it's 100% possible, you just have to think like a PC in order to do it effectively. In the novels, the schmucks that actually do hurt marines are either super lucky (Righeous Fury) or special characters that are smarter than the average bear.

Ascension contians new classes, new abilities, and new equipment. The Sisters get ascended careers as well, including new equipment that can grant them Unnatural Toughness, bonus armor, and sweet weapons. Ascension also isn't all about blowing up enemies, it's about influence and investigation as well. Think about it, when the heat gets to be too much, the Inquisition calls in their ordo militants. If the base members of the Ascension were that good, why would they need the militants.

Many of us started off DW with apprehension and concern about the power level, but give it a real try rather than guessing and see how it plays out. If you're able to deal with 'epic level' campaigns you might have yourself a blast.

And I'll leave it at that and stop derailing this particular thread with you

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

That I do agree with to a certain degree- as was mentioned earlier in the thread the munitorium would demand the best and brightest for the guard in most cases, meaning the PA'd folks would most likely be the house guard.

That being said, a prior example I had was Cadia; they essentially have a private storm trooper regiment, but they're allowed to have them and keep them close to home due to the unique spot in the galaxy they have, right? Should another planet have an equally interesting situation that govenor might be able to justify having them.

And isn't the PDF often times the governor's private army?

All I'm saying is it's possible but should definitely be very rare.

Sebashaw said:

Because there are over a million planets in the Imperium, and only a million space marines. That's one per planet, being generous about it.

As to being human: Not really. Look at the fluff circa WD90 which was lifted for DW, describing the various organs and the training. That was never 'human'.

As for the decadence of Marines... Huh? Not sure what you're getting at. However, for 99% of Chapters out there; their fault is their pride and inability to connect with humanity as a whole. Their failure is that they see themselves as above and separate from humanity, rather than its protectors. Because all they have is war, they see war as a purpose and goal, rather than as a means to an end.

As to Space Marines being 'too good'. If they weren't SO much better than mere humans, why waste massive, massive resources in equipping, bio-engineering, and generally pandering to them? We're talking about the grandchildren of a god here, after all. I personally don't want a bio-engineered killing machine, forged in a century of conflict to be 'balanced' combat-wise with some 18 year old kid from the slums who's been hanging around with an Inquisitor for a year or two. The late-level characters in =][= games get spaceships, vast networks of contacts, the ability to 'pull strings' to get stuff done, and a massive list of skills at their disposal. Whereas the Astartes is better at getting his own hands dirty in combat. I don't see a balance issue there at all.

At the end of the day DH and DW and RT are VERY different games. DH is CoC in space, with players being out-gunned investigators, having to really think in order to win. RT is is for players who like their empire building and is all about gaining more and more resources and power. DW is about killing lots and lots of things and generally being awesome. The games are fairly mechanically interchangable, but the ethos behind each is very different.

Charmander said:

I didn't say it's impossible, although I do believe it is highly unlikely. Imperium covers a great portion of the galaxy, so if such a person exist I would imagine he is sector governor at least. It could be a good plot for some high level campaigns. Especially if he goes rogue and needs to be stopped before he and his power armoured soldiers wreak havoc upon the population. Assassination followed by lance strikes most likely ))

I like the idea of ceremonial or house guard PA'd soldiers. They just need the pariah gene and they are set to be truly gruesome opponents .

AluminiumWolf said:

Funny, I'd say that DW's Space Marines are a happy medium - they aren't as ridiculously overpowered as a tiny minority of SM fanboyz want them to be, yet they aren't as nerfed as a tiny minority of SM haterz insist they should be. They are, in fact, as powerful as I always assumed they were.

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

Which could make for a nice adventure, just make them influenced by Tau or Tyranids to get the DW involved .

Or run it as an Ascension game, but I am stuck on my marines right now.

Sebashaw said:

They call that a chapter usually.

macd21 said:

IMO the game is perfect for what it was aimed at, SPACE OPERA.

They can be GOD like but you can throw Evil gods in a can or hordes or tiny puny creatures or huge monsters, etc. This makes it epic, unrealistic and grim dark.

As far as PA PDF why not use Sisters al together? There are MANY stories of Sisters going against a chapter for some stupid eclesiarchical mather.

Oh yes someone said why would it not be allowed? SM, SoB and Mechanicus would try to spot a PDF going like that and any IG officer would automatically "seize" the DPF and turn them unto a full IG platoon and deploy them on some slaughter field.

In other words it happend, it will happen again but it should be a rare secret thing and anyone will try to seize them as a fighting force or destroy them as they are dangerous if they rebel or the Inquisitor needs a new PA and why not a full PA platoon since you have one handy?

Why would you not agree to an =I= taking your platoon? Bang, Platoon I am your new leader Inquistor Sham! Knewl befor the emperor and Ordo Hereticus.

Charmander said:

Stuck with marines also. Since I have time for just one campaign at the moment. We're playing Price of Hubris. It's going really good so far. Although I suspect war with locals. My players are a bit paranoid and puritan ^^.

Anyway, the power armoured pariahs would be appropriate for some good Ascension level of play, I agree. I would most likely go with Tau influence since I don't like the blue buggers. They just need to be purged. Ordo Xenos and Emperor demands it.

I don't see either why it would fit in the greater good to equip a full platoon of PDF with TAU PA when their own troops only field them for the best of the best... unless they are mind wipped by air cast... Dunno...

CSM built armors sounds better IMO, they are a form of deamonic parasite detected too late, etc. Necron tech would be crazy since necron tech "is or should be" beyong human reach...

Also imagine if the Tau where uncarfull with their tech and the stealth suits / battlesuitsmade their way undammaged into the mechanicus / Ordo Xenos / None codex Astartes, etc.

crisaron said:

What I meant was that, Tau persuaded somehow the PA'd soldiers to join their cause. Or rather, whoever is in charge of them. So it would be an imperative to destroy those soldiers who so carelessly switched their allegiance.

I can see the top Mechanicus turning to the local Lord : "Somehow, I told you so, sounds not enouhg". Bang!

crisaron said:

I doubt that it is allowed, since Imperium would not want to have Imperial Generals requisition PDF forces willy-nilly without having it cleared by Adeptus Administratum. First off, this potentially screws up their planning - "Sorry, I know you were planning to send 1857th Heavy Artillery battalion to Sigma Pavonis, but Lord General Smuth-Worley has comandeered it for his campaign on Kethra. Yes, and 12th Bollocksian Rangers as well." Second, it provides an easy opportunity for wanna-be warlords to raise troops by legally requisitioning them from the neighboring planets. An Imperial Guard commander may command local PDF forces, I suppose, if he is coordinating defense of the planet, but I don't think I read anything that indicates he can take them with him when he leaves.

That as been hinted in books from time to time.

They are not always going with the will of the Minestrium but again what power does a Minestrum have against a IG fleet?

crisaron said:

Power of the purse - the delivery of fleet supplies, equipment and repair parts are organized via Adeptus Administratum, is it not? It doesn't matter how fearsome your battlecruiser is, if the ratings on board have no food. Of course said IG can start raiding manufacturing worlds for supplies, but I'm pretty sure that's significantly frowned upon - like torture followed by execution kinda thing.

crisaron said:

There is no IG fleet because of seperation of powers. So if someone gets a hugely powerful army, they are not going anywhere as they don't have any ships. And a huge fleet won't be able to hold planets because they don't have the army to do it.

Its the Imperial way to safeguard against rogues.

I believe that IG officers (High Ranking Ones) can requisition PDF units. That shouldn't be able to requisition other IG units. I see it as more as a temporary secondment for the war on that planet. Also remember if an IG officer goes rogue with a large army he won't get anywhere without the Navy providing a lift. As that the whole point of the seperation of Guard and Fleet.

By the way what was meant by "Minestrium" (I know English might not be your first language I just want to clarify)

Did you mean Ministorum, the church of man with its religious influence.

The Munitorum, the Beaurocratic arm of the Administration (Basically their department of Defense)

tygre said:

Eh? Completely agree on everything else, but not this. Of course senior guard officers have the power to issue orders to the senior officers of other guard formations, under regulation 6-2 [i've got six stars, you've got two: Do as I say!]. The whole purpose of formalised ranks is to have a formalised command structure. And if the person on top of a chain of command is subordinate to an off-world commander, then you have only two choices: Obey their orders, or desperately procrastinate and delay in order to get confirmation from the next step up in your own chain of command and hope that it doesn't go wrong.