Court Jester said:

Really. I only have the latest Tau Codex, so I can't look it up. But Necromunda is all the way in Segmentum Solar. The are on different sides of the galactic core. I highly doubt if the Spryer suits came from the Tau. The nobles of Hive Primus of Necromunda are fabulously rich. If any civilians could get there hands on light power armour, they could.

Data007 said:

See: That's the era I come from too. But according to some fluff I recently read, Rhinos now seem to have been ret-conned into being scarce and for the Asartes.

Siranui said:

Adeptus Arbites still has Rhinos, so I would say that Rhinos are not so much scarce, but more like "restricted to Imperial organizations only". Seeing as Imperial Guard is actually composed of planetary regiments tithed to Imperial service and come in with their own equipment this would quite handily explain why they don't get Rhinos.

tygre said:

Doubt away...

Codex Tau, page 63. The Tau traded the hunter suits away, traded the technology which then found its way into the hands of the aristocracy (not just on Necromunda I would guess). The alarming part about the tech is that it records the wearers every action so is regarded as a sort of spy device. But the order to destroy all Tau tech on sight is harder to enforce with the nobles of the Imperium who can often flaunt the rules.

Polaria said:

I dunno - it could well be a matter of price as well. Rank and file Guard conscripts come from planetary regiments, yes, but Stormtroopers get recruited from the Schola straight into Munitorum service and they still ride in Chimaeras. And why would Rhinos be restricted when they would be cheaper to build and more versatile - basically the vehicle equivalent to the lasgun?
All Imperial organizations using Rhinos have more expensive equipment in general, including the Arbites. That said, of course it may also just be a question of application, what with the Chimaera having slightly stronger forward armour and a cannon mount, whereas the Rhino is faster and easier to repair. Basically "pseudo-tank capable of carrying troops" versus a pure armoured personnel carrier, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Lynata said:

Easy - inability to reproduce them.

The current Space Marine codex mentions that the Rhino was once ubiquitous, but is becoming increasingly rare as knowledge is lost and more and more worlds that once produced them have lost the ability to do so. This increasing rarity is why, according to Codex: Space Marines, the Rhino is limited only to a relatively small number of Imperial organisations.

One thing that's pretty common among PDF and IG forces is that their focus is in overwhelming number and firepower. Quantity over quality. Of course some are going to be outfitted better than others but PDF number in the thousands, tens, and hundreds of thousands. Space Marines number at 1000. Max. (except the better few ) and technically not even all of those bodies are wearing power armor 100 of those are scouts. I dont know how high the body count is for Sisters of Battle but even their armour is not as useful as it is with marines.

Forgeworlds don't supply for just their planet. Or even the planets near them. They supply the Imperium, and the Emperors soldiers across the galaxy.

I feel the "with plenty of time and money" arguement for power armor, it could be used with bolt weapons too. Those are exceptionally rare outside of the Astartes. I guess it really comes down to more pressing matters. Do you want to spend those resources making a couple hundred, maybe a thousand, guardsmen have power armor, or do you want to spend that money and time on Ammo, Food, Vehicles, Equipment, etc to support the BILLIONS of Imperial soldiers that fight across the galaxy.

I always figured that the Astartes, Sororitas, and Arbites used Rhino-bodied vehicles because they were easier to ferry to and from the surface on smaller transport craft whereas Chimera-bodied vehicles are considerably heavier.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Hmm, good point, I forgot about that part. Even it consumes less resources to produce, fewer worlds actually have suitably equipped manufactoriums and personnel to do it. May sound a bit hokey at first considering we're just talking about a transport vehicle, but I suppose it can be explained by delicate electronics (perhaps the Rhino has integrated self-repair augmentations, this would explain the +10 bonus to repair tests). Or it could be that its hull requires a certain special alloy that can no longer be produced in the same quantities as the Imperium was once able to. Just some wild guesswork, of course.

HappyDaze said:

Hmm, I think Rhinos get transported by converted Thunderhawks (in pairs of 2) - what does the Imperial Guard use to get its vehicles on the ground? Or rather the Imperial Navy, given that they're the ones carrying them.

Lynata said:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288441

I'd imagine smaller craft can be used from time to time as well such as modified Valkyries, to carry individual bits of armor down.

Most of the time it probably will be large landing craft. The type that you don't want anywhere near combat.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Which goes directly against prior canon that stated that they were STC and could be pretty much made out of plywood with a pair of scissors and a roll of duct tape, if that's all that you had. They were originally designed as multi-role vehicles that could be easily made and used on frontier worlds. Looks like a ret-con!

It's also harder for commissars to do summary executions on fleeing troops if they are in power armour.

Brellak said:

You want elite? There is about a million Space Marines in the galaxy, while only 10,000 Storm Troopers. Best of the best of the best.

Letrii said:

Krater said:

You want elite? There is about a million Space Marines in the galaxy, while only 10,000 Storm Troopers. Best of the best of the best.

10,000 Storm Troopers. 30,000 Soritas.

Where to people keep getting these crazy low numbers for things? These numbers have just got to be wrong.

Blood Pact said:

Random fluff written by writers that have absolutely no sense of scale at all.

1 million space marines across the galaxy is a hideously small and insignificant number. Any operating force smaller than that is of no consequence on the galactic scale.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Most references to the storm troopers say they're a single regiment, so 10,000 seems reasonable from that perspective. But then again, some of the storm trooper companies have numbers like "2378th" which is wierd considering the ST regiment is supposed to be permanent so you'd think they'd not go that high in number.

I agree though, whoever came up with that number didn't think about the scale of the galaxy. How do 10,000 STs go to battlefields across the imperium so frequently they get nicknamed by regular guard units?

Charmander said:

They don't necessarily have to have consecutive numbers. It's a fairly well accepted military practice to hide the actual number of units - for example, one of IDF's most celebrated armored units is 188th Armored Brigade. You can be pretty sure Israel does not have 187 other armored brigades.

Most references to the storm troopers say they're a single regiment, so 10,000 seems reasonable from that perspective. But then again, some of the storm trooper companies have numbers like "2378th" which is wierd considering the ST regiment is supposed to be permanent so you'd think they'd not go that high in number.

I agree though, whoever came up with that number didn't think about the scale of the galaxy. How do 10,000 STs go to battlefields across the imperium so frequently they get nicknamed by regular guard units?

A single 10,000 member ST regiment on a planet housing a major =][= presence I could go with. There would have to be tens of thousands of ST regiments across a Segmentum, otherwise they are just an anomaly that would crop up in very specific locations and not something know across the galaxy.

Bahhhh! My Quote Fu has failed.

Siranui said:

Yes, a ret-con.

But, y'know what, I'm OK with that, in the name of diversity. The Rhino was originally described as "the most common vehicle in the Imperium" because they were the only vehicle kit that GW made... so they wrote the background so that everybody could use them, which is fair enough, in context. Nowadays, not so much. Gone are the days of Harlequins riding around in looted Land Raiders...

Rhinos are still an STC - as are Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Chimeras, Leman Russ Battle Tanks, certain forms of tractor... and about 90% of what the Mechanicus regard as technological canon. But that doesn't mean that they can be produced anywhere by anybody... it used to (because that's what the STC systems were for... back when people had STC databases and similar high-function equipment allowing them to produce nuclear reactors out of paperclips and plastic cups), but as all anyone has of the Standard Template Construct system anymore is fragments of print-outs, it is much, much harder to reproduce those ancient and rugged designs.

A world which loses the rote-and-ritual methods to produce a given design, even an STC one... will not get it back. A world once capable of production lost to enemy forces (as happened to the Forge World of Tigrus, at the time the only producer of Leman Russ Vanquishers) can no longer produce for the Imperium, and the knowledge on that world is lost with it. It's the way the setting works... knowledge is stagnant at best and declining at worst, with ancient lore lost through attrition and ignorance.

Charmander said:

That was an interesting link, thanks!

Letrii said:

Brilliant!

ItsUncertainWho said:

Isn't that a trademark aspect of 40k?

That said, of course those numbers are insignificant on a galactic scale. They are not meant to show up everywhere where there's trouble - but where they do show up they usually make it count. It's not that dissimilar from the Space Marines who would not be of much help either if they'd really just have a single man on every Imperial world instead of concentrating their forces somewhere.

Both Grenadiers (as "pseudo-STs") as well as Inquisitorial Stormtroopers seem to be exempt from the 10k number, though, if that makes you feel better.

Charmander said:

Hmm. Would it be possible that this number merely serves as a unique identification marker for the particular company? Meaning: the 2377th gets wiped out, you begin forming the 2378th as replacement within the same regiment.

Lynata said:

Could be that they take their base company name and add numbers to it to represent assignments or what army group they're linked up with? It's space soldiers, could be anything, really. It just seemed odd given that they specifically call out that the regiments are resupplied. Though it's not out of the question that they would retire a partucular regimental number for honorary or superstitious reasons.

It could be part of the same fluff with no concept of scale, too . Or it could be as Krater says and they're using an old method of hiding numbers, even though I can't see that as being quite the same use on a galactic scale and in a warzone populated by people that can eat your brain.

Charmander said:

Charmander said:

10,000 STs in the galaxy? That's really laughable. Another GW 'fact' that I choose to ignore...