When using "See Me Not" the text mentions the psyker cannot be perceived in any way, which would seem to provide attack penalties beyond just the attacker being effectively 'blind' against the psyker (since they couldn't hear / feel / smell (psychically sense?) them either)

Didn't see anything in the errata, is there a consensus on what the penalty would be? And whether there was any way for the poor foes of our psyker to help mitigate the penalty? Or limitations on the power that I'm overlooking?

This is the key bit: targets that this power has been used successfully on literally cannot percieve you at all.

This is not a case of penalties, even major ones, being applied to their attack roll. This is a case of them not being allowed to roll the attack at all, though AOE attacks would still work. But the character would need a reason to start throwing them around when they don't know the psyker is there. A reason they are consistent in applying even when there isn't a psyker around using this power.

This isn't a cheap invisibility ability that can be defeated by covering the psyker in paint. This is a power that reaches into the targets mind, finds the part of their brain where they take all the sensory input and make a conclusion about what you see/hear/smell/etc, then makes sure that conclusion doesn't include the psyker.

That's how my player was arguing it was written - but if that's the case, what can challenge a psyker with this power? It would seem to remove the tension from all but the most convoluted of fights.

Banjo Tango said:

Here are some ideas:

- Even if his survival is guaranteed, this power does not protect anyone else, and their survival might be required for the mission. So threaten the other players.

- NPCs who chuck around large amounts of explosives. If a grenade is aimed for the person standing beside you, you being invisible to the attacker won't save you.

- More targets than he can affect. Though the other players might not like the extra firepower bearing down on the group.

- Targets sitting outside the powers range. We are talking about a power with a 20 meter maximum range , with no option to increase it with overbleed. Keep two NPCs 41 meters apart and at least one of them will be out of range at all times. A long las user can be up to 75 meters away and still get the short range bonus.

- Targets who shake it off. High WP targets, or targets with strong minded will have a good chance to pass the test. Remember, if the targets pass their willpower tests, they aren't affected. Sure, he could use overbleed to worsen the test, but that means more dice, meaning more risk of phenomena.

- Targets who are completely immune. Such as creatures with From Beyond (there are ways for PCs to get it), Machine (including servitors and high level tech-priests) or the thing that annoys any psyker: An Untouchable (rules for these exist in Disciples of the Dark Gods and Radicals Handbook). Just don't do this to often, unless you include mooks that he can use it on.

- Someone who uses it on him first. Only do this once.

Banjo Tango said:

The #1 limitation in my experience is range, and the fact that it cannot be "pre-cast" like more conventional "invisibility" magic. Also, since each target, gets his own WP test to resist it is not as good as it may sound.

So if the psyker wants to spend time in every combat casting this there will still probably be enemies targetting him, and the rest of the party would be attacking already. It's not an auto-win.

Friend of the Dork said:

Bilateralrope said:

I didn't realize "from beyond" and "machine" shielded you from psychic effects! Still, the whole "Your powers have no effect on me!" thing can be obnoxious to the player. One of the main villains for our campaign is a Slaugh, and she hates the fact that she's suddenly useless in its presence doesn't make her happy. Though she might be able to overcome the Untouchable effect now that she's ascended...

I suppose my main issue is that any enemy, no matter how powerful*, can essentially be killed on a failed WP test unless I choose to make them immune (which also bites). And I'm not really one for running combat with a large number of opponents (she can currently affect 6 enemies, which is more than enough in a lot of cases - especially since the ones who still CAN perceive her aren't necessarily going to target her right away).

I spoke with her about modifying the power to make things easier, she said she mainly bought it for "stealth" reasons. We might do something to modify it such that attacking a target makes them aware of your presence, and they can take a wild swing at a -30, something like that.

Banjo Tango said:

It is not an opposed test , just a straight WP test modified by the targets psychic defences and the overbleed. Also note that the overbleed is a choice, for every 5 points she either gets another target or applies a -10 modifier to one of the selected targets.

I didn't realize "from beyond" and "machine" shielded you from psychic effects!

They only shield from powers that directly influence their mind. Mind reading still works, as does any power that isn't telepathy. So if she has any damaging powers, including a force staff, they will still work.

Still, the whole "Your powers have no effect on me!" thing can be obnoxious to the player. One of the main villains for our campaign is a Slaugh, and she hates the fact that she's suddenly useless in its presence doesn't make her happy.

True, so provide the big guy some minions that she can use her powers on. Or give a big guy she can use it on with immune (probably servitor) minions.

Though she might be able to overcome the Untouchable effect now that she's ascended...

No, Untouchables are simply immune to the direct effect of psychic powers.

I suppose my main issue is that any enemy, no matter how powerful*, can essentially be killed on a failed WP test unless I choose to make them immune

If the targets only have a WP of 25, you can expect 1 in 4 of them to shake it off. Increase the WP to PC levels, and even more can resist.

And I'm not really one for running combat with a large number of opponents

In general, large numbers of mooks are going to be more of a threat than smaller numbers of stronger enemies.

especially since the ones who still CAN perceive her aren't necessarily going to target her right away

Give them an awareness test to notice the character that, instead of fighting back, just stood there doing something. Maybe to also notice when their friends stopped shooting her, which is bound to make them very suspicious. Once they call out over the radio to ask their friends about it (if they are meant to be a threat to ascended characters, giving them microbeads or an equivalent won't be a surprise to anyone), and get told she isn't there, what would stop them taking shots ? (even lowly gangers would suspect witchery at this point)

You know what really worried me when I was playing a psyker: Targets with mental fortress. If she tries to blind multiple targets, then for each one who has mental fortress, she has to make the WP test or take damage. Given that it requires WP 50 and strong minded, you are looking at characters who have a 75% chance to resist if she doesn't use overbleed to make the test harder.

she said she mainly bought it for "stealth" reasons.

Then give her places where she can use it outside of combat. They will probably need to sneak around at some point.

Didn't realize it was a straight WP test, that's not as bad...

As far as the Untouchable bit, I was referring more to the "suppression" effect that makes it harder of psykers to use any powers at all.

Banjo Tango said:

Ya, in an ascension level game, that +10 threshold they impose on powers directed at them is negligible at best. I can't see how that would be much of a problem for a primarus psyker... or even noticed by one.

Banjo Tango said:

As was noted her WP doesen't come into play. There are plenty of other powers where it DOES though, for example Telepathy powers. She would still have 40% chance of outright failing those though, no matter how low WP the enemy has. The rank 8 psyker in my party is indeed powerful, but he has not even considered this power, and quite frankly when I as GM used it against the party enough of them succeeded in their WP test that they were able to finish off the Psyker in question fairly easily.

I think there are plenty of more "broken" powers out there, but you should know already if you group Ascended.

Quote: Still, the whole "Your powers have no effect on me!" thing can be obnoxious to the player. One of the main villains for our campaign is a Slaugh, and she hates the fact that she's suddenly useless in its presence doesn't make her happy

When a group engages a Slaugh it doesn't automaticly mean the Pryker is useless. There are enough powers to buff yourself or help your team.

Umbranus said:

Telepathy isn't that useful in combat. Just look at the powers:

- Beastmaster: 8m range, you have to spend your reaction to give it orders and I don't see many powerful creatures near the enemies being a threat to them.

- Compel/Dominate: 8m range and you probably have a better gun on you than the guns on the targets you can reliably control. Especially at Ascension level.

- Inspire: 6m range. Stay close or it won't work. Hope you don't find someone who likes using AOE.

- Mind Scan/Projection: Just useless in combat.

- Psychic Shriek: This might be good for mass knockouts, especially with unnatural willpower. However, it is a straight WP test. so there will be a lot of foes resisting it. Also it doesn't distinguish between friend or foe, meaning you can knock out your allies.

- Terrify: Again, a straight WP test, so easily resisted by many big foes. With it might be good for getting rid of any mooks within 8 meters, but that's it.

I'm not familiar with powers in other books, they might have a combat telepathy power. So I'm thinking that when she gets into combat, she has to fight like a non-psyker most of the time anyway.

Not to say that Telepaths are useless, they can more than make up it outside of combat.

Bilateralrope said:

Actually, it says "All creatures within Range that you specify", which means you can distinguish friend from foe.

"Uhm... why did most of those cultists suddenly grab their ears and fall unconscious with a whimper? I didn't hear a thing."

"Cult Whistle. Only Cultists can hear it."

Unusualsuspect said:

My bad. Though you had better hope that this cult doesn't like using anti-fatigue drugs.

Bilateralrope said:

I never said something about telepathy being strong or weak in combat. So I don't really see why you're quoting me and after that tell me how weak telepathy is in combat

Most of what you wrote has nothing to do with the enemy being a slaugh.
And, like most psykers, you seem to ignore the fact that even minor powers can be rather effective in combat.
And a lot of them are, even if the enemy is immun to psypowers, because the affect you or your team, not the enemy.

Dull pain, healer, precognition, lucky, inspiring aura, staunch bleeding, wall walk, all have good potential regardless of enemy.
Fearful aura, cameleon, spasm, weapon jinx and white noise can help against some foes, too. (I'm not saing it helps vs slaugh)

.

NPCs affected by this and seeing obvious psychic power use might just start firing randomly and listen for hits.

Letrii said:

How can you hear a hit? Especially over the sound of a gun firing.. That's the most ridiculous notion I've read in a long time And no, the bullet does not generally travel slover than the speed of sound, and even if it did the shooter would have to be far away .

A more likely way would be to spray the general area and then watch for signs of blood spatter as well as the abscence of your friends getting killed. It would be kinda like Predator except there is no way to hear or see the outline of the predator.

What does bullet speed have to do with hearing it hit something? You would hear report of weapon followed by sound of it hitting something.

Letrii said:

First of all the sound of a bullet tearing through flesh is not very loud, thus the sound of a gun being fired drowns it out completely. And thus the speed of the bullet matter as the bullet will hit the target before the sound of the discharge of the weapon is over. This is even worse when autofire or rapid shooting is used, which is pretty much necessary to hit a target you don't really know where is. Now if you were shooting at a metal surface, a large bell etc. you might hear it despite the sound of the discharge, but a human body? No. Might as well try to hear yourself shooting a a paper target 10 meters away.

Unless you use hollywood or PC game sound effects in your game, in which case all bets are off.

In the end, the easiest way of knowing if you hit him is if the psyker slumps the ground unconscious or dead, which in case he stops sustaining the power.

I was operating on assumption that most would be wearing some sort of armor that would likely make at least some noise on being hit, and psyker is likely to make noise when he is shot. Not sure if this power would mask noise of the shout though.

Letrii said:

If the shot didn't, then the psychic power would. Remember, victims of See Me Not "cannot see, hear, smell or perceive [the psyker] in any way." This would naturally extend to possessions making sounds (else it could be argued that you heard their boot hitting the floor when they took a step or the cloth of their cloak rustling) as well as any and all vocal utterances no matter how loud ;-)

Graver said:

If a Psyker with See Me Not falls in the woods, does it make a sound?

Friend of the Dork said:

Ah, answer this and you shall have your answer: did the observer pass his or her WP test?

**** zen is easy when you have dice!

Graver said:

In the grimdark future of 41st millennia there Iis no Zen. There is only War.