So, had my first actual gate burst go off last night, and while it was an interesting effect, it was pretty late and so it was more annoying than challenging (especially as we had plenty of room on the doom track and 5 seals when the burst happened, so there was no real way it was changing anything...and indeed we re-sealed that gate almost immediately and then got an Elder Sign to seal the last gate shortly thereafter).

I'm wondering...does anyone have any alternate rules they like to use for what happens when a gate burst card is drawn, either in addition to the burst, or just replacing the gate burst concept? Especially the latter...I'm looking for an alternate rule we can use for those cards if we're playing a game late and just want to get done and go home, but that still provides a negative impact when the card comes up on a sealed location. Something that still makes a gate burst a Bad Thing to Draw that adds some tension, but doesn't actually lengthen the game if I have to get to work in the morning.

I was thinking of just saying that instead of the seal breaking and a gate opening, you just add a doom token to the doom track despite the seal (as that would add tension and actually potentially shorten the game), but if anyone else has an interesting suggestion I'd like to hear it.

I also have this problem. Nothing's worse than a lengthy game that goes on even longer when a gate burst hits. Don't get me wrong, I usually like the uncertainty a gate burst provides, but sometimes this game has to end!

Some ideas off the top of my head:

1) Take off the seal and add a doom token. This strikes me as very brutal, but it would probably shorten the game.

2) Monster surge.

3) Raise the terror track.

4) Put a random monster (or two) on that location.

5) First player is cursed.

6) Choose an unstable location without a gate or seal and open a portal there. Add a doom token as normal. If none remain, the Ancient one awakens!

7) The first player must compose a limerick or haiku about the lovecraft mythos. The other players all vote on whether or not it is good. If more vote bad than good, he is devoured, otherwise his maximum sanity and stamina are reduced by one.

8) Some combination of the above.

The problem (or one of them, at least) is the steady incremental march towards victory that one sees when gates don't burst. It's frequently pretty obvious whether you're going to win by the time the game is half over, and the last couple seals are just a prolonged anticlimax. But yeah, bursts are a pretty annoying solution to that issue, and only a partial one at that.

Arguably the best thing about Innsmouth is the way it addresses this. It's similar to the doom track suggestion, but indirectly so. Basically, whenever a gate is prevented from opening by a seal, you advance the Deep Ones Rising track (which is a lot shorter than the doom track, but you can go to Innsmouth and spend a bunch of clues to reset it). So the closer you are to winning, the more you have a new problem to manage. Because one of your investigators is off spending time and clues on something else, it does make the game a little longer, but not in the frustrating "ha ha, now you have to do another one" manner of gate bursts.

I've also had this problem. One fix I considered (but haven't tried) is to put two Clue tokens on the bursting gate. Each Mythos Phase, remove one Clue token. That way, if someone gets to the bursting gate fast enough, they only need three Clue tokens to re-seal it. Thematically, it's like the gate bursts gradually over three turns instead of all at once. You could balance things out by not placing the Clue tokens that appear on the Mythos card.

When you asked what alternatives my first thought was Add a doom token (always fun!) and a monster surge happens, but the "bursting" location still acts as the focal point. IE, monsters still appear there, and if there's an un-even amount of monsters to go around, it must not have the least amount of monsters put on it.

But yeah, combing any 2/3 of the suggestions of Mustard would work, too!

this is one thing that has been a real bother since I play normally with only 2 people... playing with an expansion board and only 2 people there is so much ground to cover and it takes a lot of work to get gates sealed...even one gate burst can really kill a 2 player game not only increasing the difficulty but the time...i haven't done anything to try and alleviate this but I'm beginning to think I might have to just disregard them in games with less than 3 people or come up with something else to do instead... maybe have it so that it can't happen if there are 4 or 5 seals already on the board kinda thematically makes more sense (kinda like the more seals in the city the stronger they all grow to prevent the bursting) this still doesn't alleviate them fully but kinda gives you more of a shot of them not happening late game when they can be the most annoying

Hm...these are all good ideas. I prefer ones that keep the seal in place (as that doesn't add time to the game).

I think I'm probably going to go with one of the following if it's late:

1. No gate opens, but a doom token is still added to the doom track and a monster still appears at that location, or
2. A gate opens at the nearest unstable location without a seal, under normal gate-opening rules (add a doom token, monster appears, or if there's already a gate there, a monster surge happens but no doom token is added).

I kind of like #1 better, actually, just because it is purely a Bad Thing. It doesn't give you another possible location to seal...it just bumps up the doom track and pops a monster out.

subochre said:

Yeah...I like how it sounds like that works (thus the doom track idea). In my mind, to oppose the "march towards victory," you shouldn't take away the progress towards victory ...you should add progress towards defeat . There are a limited number of ways to remove tokens from the doom track, so getting a new one is always a bad thing.

Frankly, the way the GB mechanic works right now, I'm not sure if it'll often have a major impact on the game. If it hits you early, you haven't done enough seals for it to be frustrating. If it hits you late, you've got so many seals it probably isn't going to do anything but make you play for another half hour. If it hits you more than once, of course, it'll hurt, but from what I've seen so far (and I only have Lurker) that's pretty much designed to be unlikely.

Admittedly, I've only played one game where a gate actually burst yet, so I'm not going to excise the normal rules for them entirely from my game yet. Just going to do something different if it's really late and we just want to get the game done.

Hm...thought of one more possible idea: a gate opens at the sealed location anyway, but without removing the seal and without adding to the doom track. A monster appears from the gate as normal.

That gives you a new gate to deal with, on the location specified, but without removing victory progress.

Probably a little weaker than the other solutions, though...maybe instead: A gate opens at the sealed location anyway, fully using normal gate-opening rules, but the seal remains in place.

With that version, you get a new doom token and a new gate at your supposedly-safe location, but you still have your seals to count towards victory.

It could be good, but you could even add something to make it worth closing. What about: keeping both the seal and the gate, but as soon as that location is shown again on a Mythos card (regardless of whether it's a gate burst or not), the seal is gone? So you can have an investigator hurry up for closing that gate and keep the seal in play (careless of clue to spend, since they're not required), or decide to take some risks and go straight away hunting for the last seal(s) and ignoring the risk

Just another couple of half baked ideas to add to the pile...

1. Allow the gate burst to happen as normal, but leave a marker on the gate to indicate it costs 2 fewer clue tokens to seal (which will be 3 in most cases). Thematically I'd explain this away by saying you already had experience of sealing a gate at that location and had to gather less information to re-seal. (you still need to explore the Other World as normal).

2. Put an explored marker on the gateburst - you will need the normal number of tokens to seal but don't need to spend time exploring the other world. Thematically I'm far less happy with this one, Other World is a big part of the game but would certainly shorten the number of turns required to deal with a gate burst.

Of course there is nothing stopping you ignoring gate bursts altogether - just decide at the start of each game whether you feel you have enough time/willpower to cope with a potential meatgrinder/marathon game.

Julia said:

I also like this alternative, too. I gives you a reason to want to close the gate, but if you're at 5 seals, you may just ignore it and try to win that way. But it's still dangerous if you let it sit!

1. You could flip the Doom token to the other side and ignore the Gate Burst. If the Gate bursts a second time, add the Doom to the AO track and open a Gate there.

2. Roll a die. If the number is equal to or less than the number of seals on the board, the Gate Burst occurs, otherwise it doesn't. This means Gate bursts only tend to strike at the end of the game, not at the beginning.

It could be good, but you could even add something to make it worth closing. What about: keeping both the seal and the gate, but as soon as that location is shown again on a Mythos card (regardless of whether it's a gate burst or not), the seal is gone? So you can have an investigator hurry up for closing that gate and keep the seal in play (careless of clue to spend, since they're not required), or decide to take some risks and go straight away hunting for the last seal(s) and ignoring the risk

In the hands of a skilled player, that could translate to a free gate trophy. Since you can close it, not spend any clues, and still leave the location sealed.

Jake yet again:

"1. You could flip the Doom token to the other side and ignore the Gate Burst. If the Gate bursts a second time, add the Doom to the AO track and open a Gate there."

That would mean that medium frequency gates would almost never burst. There's not too many gate burst cards for places like the Graveyard to begin with. If you need two gate burst cards at the Graveyard for a seal to burst there, it's pretty unlikely that it will ever happen.

I'm just going to add a doom token (or 2). It is both frustrating and makes the game shorter.

mageith said:

Yeah...in light of the concerns about gate trophies, I'm probably just going to have it add a doom token and spawn a monster despite the seal, if it's late. That should still be a dangerous and frustrating effect that makes a burst a Bad Thing, but that doesn't make the game take another hour to get through.

Thanks, everyone, for your (as usual) helpful input.

Sdrolion said:

Yeah...in light of the concerns about gate trophies, I'm probably just going to have it add a doom token and spawn a monster despite the seal, if it's late. That should still be a dangerous and frustrating effect that makes a burst a Bad Thing, but that doesn't make the game take another hour to get through.

Thanks, everyone, for your (as usual) helpful input.

Now that I think about it, you could keep Julia's proposed rules, but add that a gate on a seal always counts as endless. That would prevent people from exploiting the rule to get a trophy. With that twist, the rule as a understand it would be:

1) A gate burst causes a gate to open on a location with a seal. A monster appears at the location. However, the seal is not removed and a doom token is not added to the doom track.

2) If a monster surge occurs at the location (i.e., a gate tries to open on an existing gate at that location), then in addition to the monster surge, the seal is removed.

3) If the gate is closed, the seal remains at the location. However, if a gate and a seal are in the same location, the gate is considered endless. It may only be taken as a trophy if an investigator is somehow immune to "endless" effects.

avec said:

That's a great idea, Avec. Very well done!

yes, very nice. What about fixing them on a guardian with a nice picture ?

Thanks guys! Making Heralds and Guardians isn't really my thing, so if someone else is interested in making one, feel free.

I can help doing it. Would you considering helping me in return with the wording and choose a picture you like ? if yes, please mp me.

Sdrolion said:

How about adding a doom token, raising the terror level by one, and causing a monster surge? Also making the elder sign be marked for potential future removal, or making it uncollectable as a trophy along with some of the other suggested rules? I mean, Gate Bursts were designed to be quite nasty. And if you're going to remove an (annoying) effect that makes the games drag out quite a bit longer sometimes, you should replace it with something more painful.

amikezor said:

Clearly I'm thinking more along the lines of Heralds, while you're on Guardians ;'D

Avi_dreader said:

We used the doom token + a monster appears at that location method in a game this weekend, and it was actually quite good (especially as we were fighting Ithaqua, who has a pretty short trackwe got within two of an awakening, and frankly probably only ended up with a seal victory because we got lucky and drew an Elder Sign right when we needed it. And we actually all had Find Gate!). I may add a little more to the alternate rule for our games, but I don't think it needs to be too bad.

Honestly, I question how nasty Gate Bursts were truly designed to be. In my experience so far, and analyzing the mechanics theoretically, they either have no appreciable effect besides making a game longer (if you have 5 seals and plenty of room on the doom track, now you have 4 seals and plenty of room on the doom track...not really a major impact), or just hammer in how utterly screwed you already were (if you have 3 seals and 2 spaces left on the doom track, now you have 2 seals and 2 spaces left on the doom track...you were already pretty screwed). I'm sure everyone has a story about how a gate burst started a chain of bad events leading to their loss, but I have to say that so far I would expect that the number of situations where a gate burst alone is what legitimately changed the flow of the game for a person would be rather slim. In my opinion, if a single gate burst brings you down, you probably weren't that far from losing anyway.

Considering that if you're decently prepared for gate sealing it isn't that hard to pop back in and seal the gate, and that you don't add a doom token under normal GB rules (so the burst hasn't actually put you closer to losing), it honestly doesn't seem to do much, to me, other than lengthen the game. So, I've replaced it with what I view as equivalent nastiness: you get a doom token despite having a seal (which puts you closer to losing rather than putting you farther from winning), and a monster appears on what you thought was a safe location (which did indeed put me in quite a pickle last game, that only quick action by one of my friends got me out of...a high priest appeared on me and I had only magic weapons and a low-fight character).

Certainly, if you wanted to make a Herald, making gate bursts nastier would be an interesting concept, but I'm not looking for a guardian effect or a herald effect. I'm not trying to make the game harder or easier...just remove an appreciable effect on its length. I'm trying for a roughly equivalent replacement rule that doesn't lengthen the game: that's why I have no desire (despite the fact that it actually is a very nice rule Julia et al have been working on) to use anything that involves the seal actually bursting. My goal was to find something totally different, but that I judged equally dangerous.

Adding a doom token and popping out a monster is, so far, in my opinion, equivalent, while solving my problem:

1. Normal rules take you one step farther from winning, this takes you one step closer to losing.
2. Normal rules pop out a monster, this pops out a monster
3. Normal rules lengthen the game, this keeps it the same length or shortens it
4. One GB has a reasonable bad effect but probably won't utterly change the course of the game on its own, and if you are unlucky enough to get multiple GBs, you're pretty screwed.

If I were going to modify this alternative rule, it'd probably be in the form of adding more than one doom token to make it push you even further towards an awakening.

If I wanted to make gate bursts more punishing (but not by a lot), I'd do one of two things:

1. The seal pops, the gate opens normally, a monster appears, and you add a doom token, or:
2. The seal pops. Nothing else happens, but now that's a normal unstable space again (this seems nicer, but it also prevents you from immediately charging in and resealing something...and eventually, it'll get hit again and you'll have a doom token).

And of course if you wanted a Herald effect, by all means, make one of those absolutely annihilate you. O_O Seal pops, add a doom token, open a gate, cause a monster surge, raise the terror level, all flying monsters move, each investigator discards an item, and any investigator in that location is immediately devoured.

Hm. Just thought of another interesting alternative.

Corrupted Seals : When a gate burst happens, flip over the Elder Sign on that location to the doom token side (or otherwise find a good way of marking this, like maybe just laying the Mythos card on that spot), and a monster appears at that location. It still counts as a seal. However, that location now permanently counts as an Open Gate as well, for most purposes:

• It counts towards the gate total needed for the AO to awaken
• If a Mythos card spawns a gate at that location, no gate opens but a monster surge occurs
• Clue tokens cannot spawn at that location.
• If a monster surge occurs, that location counts as an open gate for purposes of determining number of monsters spawned, and can spawn a monster
• If an investigator is on that location during Arkham Encounters, draw a gate from the stack. The investigator goes to that Otherworld, but the gate is placed back into the stack instead of being placed on the board. (This means there is a large chance that the investigator will end up being LiTaS.) (Maybe not this, since it is rather nasty...prevents the encounters at the location from ever being used.)
• Anything else I've forgotten that involves gates that are open--it is an open gate
• The location cannot be re-sealed...this effect is permanent.

This seems like it could be quite nasty. It has no immediate effect (though I suppose you could still use my "immediately add a doom token" rule as well), and still doesn't reduce your progress towards victory, but makes that a permanent dangerous area instead of giving you an irritating but ultimately solvable situation. Instead of affecting victory/defeat progress, it just makes the situation worse overall.