HappyDaze said:

Except for the riding and fighting with giant wolves in battle (wrangling), telling epic tales of battle around the fire (Performer) while creating bonds of fellowship and drinking what is equated to acidic jet fuel (Carouse). Nope, no reason at all for the Space Wolves to get skills that come directly from their background. Because if it doesn't make them more super-leet close combat fighters what the point?

ItsUncertainWho said:

Alleluya! Why make something already very powerful with a little bit of fluff even more powerful without any fluff.

I don't like your list from the fact they simply take the "good" out of TT and fluff and not the bad, IMO chapters should come with the bad and useless part that you don;t like because it is the background of the Chapter. SW with hatred (CSM) does not make sens they don't hate CSM in general more then any other chapter and to say means you don't know the fluff and the background too much IMO.

Hatred (Thousand Suns) now that sounds right, and yes they definitively need carousing since SW should spend it's free time drinking hale especially their own chapter's brew.

This game needs to create RP event compared to other games since the system is very strait forward.

My take anyway, if you want to make them more appealing to the voices here you need to let go of the perfect builds ideas.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Your sarcasm is not appreciated. If you want me to respond positively please try to be more polite.

While I don't intend to explain my every decision (since no explanation is going to satisfy some critics), I'll go ahead and open this one up a little.

Wrangling is a skill used by some Space Wolves. I don't disagree with this, however I don't feel that majority have need of this skill (there wasn't anything really suggesting it before the 5th edition codex), and those that do can pick it up as early as Rank 2 from the GSM advances and then advance it at Ranks 5 and 7. The fluff for the Thunderwolf Cavalry notes that these are "an elite within the Wolf Guard" and that says to me that this is not something that needs to be available from the beginning as Chapter Advances. The fluff for the Fenrisian Wolves also notes that they are not trained - they are instinctively drawn to the one that replaces their pack alpha, so again there is no need for Wrangling to explain this. Both of these would be better covered by a Deed (Lone Hunt would be a fine name).

Performer (Singer/Storyteller) seems a fine fit for a Space Wolves hobby, but I'm not sure that it's something that too many of them are actually Trained to use. While every Space Wolf might tell his heroic tales or sing bawdy songs at a fireside, most are amateurs (and are thus unable to make use of the game mechanics of the Performer Skill) rather than Trained professional-level Performers. Those that are Trained can take it from Rank 3 GSM and advance it at Ranks 4 and 5. I would also suggest a Deed (Skald sounds like a good name) that provided Performer (Storyteller) for Rune Priests.

Carouse is a Basic Skill. Anyone can use it, and Space Marines with all their organs and Unnatural Toughness are going to do fine with using it untrained. There are certainly Space Wolves with Carouse at the Trained level, but there's no reason that can't be picked up from Rank 1 GSM and advanced at Ranks 2 and 3. I did leave Talented (Carouse) in there for those Space Wolves that show the legendary tolerance of Leman Russ.

crisaron said:

I'm not necessarily trying to make these more appealing to the voices here, I'm trying to make what feels best to me. I'm sharing for the benefit of those that are interested, nothing more.

What have you contributed to this thread?

I think that it is appropriate for a chapter to get a skill on the general advance list, especially at a reduced rate if it is something they are known for.

HappyDaze said:

To be truthful and honest, I started off polite, I think, and you pretty much didn't return the favor at all. In fact, it rather felt like the first time someone actually tried to throw me out of a thread. Don't expect people to be polite if you're not willing to do the same.

I actually find this thread rather interesting, the idea that established chapters can get a refit, but it seems that you're trying to build a fort/tree house and putting a sign outside that says "No naysayers allowed". And unfortunately, this is a fourm, and I don't think that's gonna cut it. You can't ask for people's opinions and then say you don't want them.

Frostfire said:

I don't recall having any impolite interactions with you. I don't know why you've taken offense, but it wasn't intended.

I also didn't really ask for people's opinions. I'm not naive enough to believe that they won't offer them, but that's not really the point of this thread. The point is for people to put up their ideas, and I've seen little of that from most posters.

I'm considering adjusting the starting skills for all Space Marines to include Drive (Skimmer), Pilot (Personal), and Survival. This will require a bit of an adjustment to the Space Wolves option I noted above, and I might grant them Carouse for free since every Space Marine will get Survival as part of their regular training.

HappyDaze said:

OK, with this version I'll be adjusting the Space Marine Starting Skills (page 36) as follows: Add Drive (Skimmer), Pilot (Personal), and Survival to the list. Remove Tracking from the list.

Adjust the Neuroglottis as follows:

Neuroglottis: The Space Marine may detect any poisons or toxins by taste with a successful Challenging (+0) Awareness Test. He may also detect any poisons or toxins by smell with a successful Hard (-20) Awareness Test. The Space Marine may (at the GM's discretion) gain a +10 bonus to any Tracking Tests against an opponent he has tasted. However, it is important to note that none of these bonuses apply if the Space Marine is wearing a helmet for a sealed set of armour (e.g., Power Armour, Artificer Armour, or Terminator Armour).

Now each of the Chapters will gain a few bonus Skills and/or Talents. For Space Wolves, the bonus Skills will be Carouse and Tracking. They will also gain Heightened Senses (Smell) and Heightened Senses (Taste) as bonus Talents. They will not gain Counterattack as the errata indicates. I'll give the full write-up (including the Chapter Advances) in my net post.

Space Wolves

+5 Perception, +2 Wounds

Bonus Skills: Carouse, Tracking

Bonus Talents: Heightened Senses (Smell), Heightened Senses (Taste)

Chapter Advances

Carouse +10..........200

Carouse +20..........200

Performer (Any)..........200

Tracking +10..........200

Tracking +20..........200

Wrangling..........200

Berserk Charge..........600

Combat Sense..........500

Flesh Render..........500

Furious Assault..........600

Hardy..........400

Hatred (Chaos Space Marines)..........500

Resistance (Cold)..........200

Resistance (Heat)..........200

Talented (Carouse)..........500

Talented (Tracking)..........500

Wisdom of the Ancients..........1500