Has anyone opted to use the rules for creating your own Chapter to instead rebuild one of the provided Chapters into something more like what they envision it to be?

I've looked at tweaking a few of them, some to a large degree (Imperial Fists) and some to a much lesser degree (Space Wolves). The Imperial Fists will require some work, but the Space Wolves got a fairly minor reworking:

+5 Perception, +2 Wounds replaces +5 Perception, +5 Fellowship. Rugged and adaptable with the obvious focus on Perception seems to fit the Space Wolves best IMO, and the extra Wounds seem more useful to the majority of Space Wolves than a Fel bonus (it also works well with their access to Hardy). Chapter Advances will be mostly the same as written except that the Wrangling selections should all cost 200 xp (I don't feel that any selections should be 100 xp).

I'm also not terribly keen on Counterattack as a freebie. There are a few other Talents I'm considering in its place (Double Team together with Survival as a trained Skill being chief among them, but it's a considerable bit of a downgrade in combat power).

So, what are others looking at doing with reworking the provided Chapters?

HappyDaze said:

What's wrong with +5 perception +5 Fellowship? I mean, just in terms of their stats? I really don't see the problem with it. +2 wounds are useful, but a Space Wolf I think is easier ot talk to than any other type of space marine.

Frostfire said:

It's not the point of this thread to argue whether anyone's interpretation is right or wrong. I just want to see ideas put forward. Whether or not you (non-specific use here) wish to use them in your game is entirely up to your group.

HappyDaze said:

Even so, the reasoning behind a change or proposed change are typically much more important than the changes themselves. Saying "I suggest this; if you don't like it, don't use it, but I won't talk about why" doesn't actually help anyone or promote meaningful discussion.

Yes. I was curious. I'm not too keen on counterattack myself, but I don't see a problem with the stats as they were.

I was less than enthused by Counterattack being given, as it seemed to have been dished out just because the SWs in TT get something with the same name that does something completely different and because it's such a high level skill. With the addition of Deeds, and one that also provides the talent, I have less of a problem with it.

I'm generally trying to leave stuff alone, rather than open the flood-gates. If I want to change one thing, then everyone else in the group will as well. That said, the IF rules need throwing out of the window as far as I'm concerned. Wolves are generally ok after their 'patch' in errata and RoB. Wrangling can stay at 100 as it's generally a 'hobby' skill and not much use 99% of the time.

Basically, with the exception of the IF, all my gripes with Chapters are fairly minor ones that aren't worth fixing, as it would then require me to tinker with other stuff. I'm sacrificing perfection in favour of a common rule set.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I think you're wrong. Seeing ideas put out can encourage others to try out things for themselves and see if it works for their own reasons. What you suggest often just devolves into fanboy rage arguments.

HappyDaze said:

Agreed. We had a retooling of Space Wolves thread a few months back. Did you see it? If not I would search for threads retool in the subject line.

Alex

I'll put my Imperial Fists rebuild up later tonight (after 12 hours of slow work for holiday pay!). One of the biggest changes will be throwing out Eye of Vengeance and replacing it with Call to Vengeance (1000 xp). I think this fits their Chapter a bit better than the 'totally shooty' bit.

You don't think 'Fearless' would be a better fit than both?

HappyDaze said:

Perhaps, but that's surely a matter for the individuals involved, rather than the subject matter.

Speaking as someone who has spent a long time interested in how games are designed and who has now made the transition from enthusiastic amateur to freelance writer, I can honestly say that I find the intent behind a rule to often be more insightful and more useful than the specifics of the rule. Also, in my experience, threads which post ideas with the expectation of others doing likewise don't turn out that way - they tend to end up with many views, few comments, and fewer comments which directly contribute.

I think the important thing to bear in mind is that fellowship is the dump stat.

AluminiumWolf said:

I would argue that if you think Fellowship is a dump stat, you're playing the game wrong. But that is just my opinion.

Imperial Fists

+5 Toughness, +5 Willpower

Change the Siege Master Solo Mode Ability to "Type: Passive" per the rules in RoB.

Chapter Advances

Forbidden Lore (Traitor Legions)..........400

Forbidden Lore (Traitor Legions) +10..........400

Forbidden Lore (Traitor Legions) +20..........400

Tactics (Defensive Doctrine)..........200

Tactics (Defensive Doctrine) +10..........200

Tactics (Defensive Doctrine) +20..........200

Trade (Remembrancer)..........200

Trade (Remembrancer) +10..........200

Trade (Remembrancer) +20..........200

Call to Vengeance..........500

Duty unto Death..........800

Hardy..........400

Hatred (Chaos Space Marines)..........500

Peer (Adeptus Astartes)..........500

Siegecraft..........500

Space Wolves

+5 Weapon Skill, +5 Perception

Survival is a Trained Advanced Skill for Space Wolves.

Bonus Talents: Double Team, Heightened Senses (Smell)

Chapter Advances

Carouse..........200

Carouse +10..........200

Carouse +20..........200

Performer (Storyteller)..........200

Performer (Storyteller) +10..........200

Performer (Storyteller) +20..........200

Tracking +10..........200

Tracking +20..........200

Wrangling..........200

Wrangling +10..........200

Wrangling +20..........200

Flesh Render..........500

Hardy..........400

Hatred (Chaos Space Marines)..........500

Heightened Senses (Taste)..........500

Talented (Carouse)..........500

Talented (Tracking)..........500

Wisdom of the Ancients..........1500

AluminiumWolf said:

There is no dump stat. Firstly because stats are rolled in order, and secondly because a high Fel is essential not only for decent squad leadership, but for any of the invariable role-playing that's part and parcel of the game.

Anyone have anything on-topic to add? Please post some ideas.

Are the Fists really that obsessed with traitor marines? Additionally, they are masters of Siege in an active (attacking) manner, as well: Not purely defensively.

And...erm... I wouldn't pay 500xp for heightened senses (taste), and I can't see (m)any others doing so. I'd go with Strength and Perception for space wolves, too. Carouse is a bit of an odd skill in that it's impressively useless. I'd be tempted to throw the entire skill out of the window, put a big black marker through it in the book, and just give them Resistance (narcotics) for 200xp instead, and base the 'heavy drinking' skill off Toughness.

Siranui said:

There isn't one offensive siege tactic - Defensive Doctrine also lets you understand the weaker points of a defense when planning an attack.

Heightened Senses (Taste) along with Scrutiny is of some rare use when you want to play CSI Deathwatch. It all depends on how much the Space Wolves B-B is willing to put in his mouth.

I have to agree that Carouse is of VERY limited appeal. I'd never take it considering that it's a Basic Skill and Unnatural Toughness does just fine. Resistance (Poisons) is already in the game and might work since anything powerful enough to intoxicate a SM is pretty much a full on poison.

Wrangling is hardly anything to write home about. It deserves to be on the list, but given that it's accessable pretty early on for the same price for everyone else, I don't see the harm in making it 100xp for the Wolves.

HS (taste) is probably worth dropping the price of, given the niche usage.

All the Chapters already hate the traitors, that seems to be a given. So, instead of Hatred (Traitor Marines), how about going more specific to the chapters?

I would consider giving both Hatred & Enemy (Iron Hands) for IF, and Hatred & Enemy (Thousand Sons) for SW

It seems more appropriate to me to get specific since these are epic grudges for these two chapters.

Although that means that XP is then being spent on something that might come up once or twice in an average campaign. Generalisation makes it more appealing.

Siranui said:

Exactly. This is even why the very general Hatred (Heretics) is a better choice when available since it covers Chaos Space Marines, rebellious Planetary Governors, Tau sympathizers, Genestealer cult members (not purestrains or hybrids - those are xenos), and unsanctioned psykers/sorcerers.

True that generalizing makes them more appealing, but I still think there is room for specific hatred. A Space Wolf who sees any heretic will slice 'em up, but A space wolf that sees a Thousand son will them put those pieces in a blender.

I think that perhaps a compromise of Hatred(Chapter Enemies) might be best, and then lower the cost for it. This way it's not as specific as a specific Chaos chapter, and they don't have to overlap.

Just a thought.

Let's try this revision:

Space Wolves

+5 Perception, +2 Wounds

Space Wolves gain Survival as a Trained Advanced Skill.

Bonus Talents: Hardy, Heightened Senses (Smell)

Chapter Advances

Tracking +10..........200

Tracking +20..........200

Berserk Charge..........600

Combat Sense..........500

Flesh Render..........500

Furious Assault..........600

Hatred (Chaos Space Marines)..........500

Resistance (Cold)..........200

Resistance (Heat)..........200

Talented (Carouse)..........500

Talented (Tracking)..........500

Wisdom of the Ancients..........1500

Carouse, Performer, and Wrangling are all still available off of the General Space Marine advances. I don't really see a need for Space Wolves to get them earlier (or cheaper) than others.

Revised version of the Imperial Fists to come later.