With all of the weapons listed across the vairous books, does anyone know of any bolt pistols with the accurate quality?

I have no seen one, but yet agian, this IS 40k: a Galaxy of guns is what you have, and no one can claim they saw the whole of the galaxy.

If it's not in the books, then make a pattern yourself: I'm doing it now (SP weapons-mostly added a trait, extra damage, range, ammo capacity etc.) of course we're talking bolt weapon here, so the availability should refect it.

Bolt weapons are probably not too suited to become sniper rifles. This would be the equivalent as giving the Accurate trait to a missile launcher.

Just my two Thrones, of course.

No bolt pistols. However, accurate isn't that useful on pistols, it's just a +10 bonus on top of your aim action. Only basic weapons get the extra damage.

There is an accurate basic bolt weapon in Inquisitors Handbook.

Yea, seems to me there should be at least one.

The "Angelus Bolt Carbine" in IH (page 109) has the accurate quality.

Also, there is the "Solo Mark II" bolt gun (single shot only, has accurate and reliable quality) found in the Rogue Trader supplement book "Into the Storm" (page 112). I would see this as a good foundation for an argument to have a "single shot" bolt pistol made that has the accurate quality.

Pfuuh, totally forgot about the Angelus; good find. In that case the quality can just as easily be added to pistols, I guess. Not that it would have any effect as per the rules.

Accurate bolt weapons is not something I would have done (just doesn't strike me as fitting), but it's there. Ironically, I see accurate pistols as far more reasonable (though I would make it so that the bonus only applies when the pistol is held by both hands) and am kinda puzzled why this is not in the books.

Lynata said:

Yea, too true. You never read about the Space Marine taking the carefully aimed shot. It all about the cloud of bolter fire blanketing an area.

Lynata said:

The rocket propulsion of bolter shells is primarily for accuracy, particularly at long ranges - the constant propulsion means that the shell's velocity doesn't decline (and indeed may increase after firing; depends on how powerful the rocket is) until the rocket has expended its fuel, making it able to more reliably hit distant targets where a conventional bullet would have slowed down. The faster a projectile is moving, the less opportunity it has to deviate from its trajectory before it hits... hence, accuracy.

Quartermus said:

Brother Sergent Torias Telion (SM 5th Ed codex p88) has a Stalker Pattern Bolter, with targeter and loaded with silenced shells, which on the TT atleast give better range, fires 2 shots, like a bolter being rapid fired and has the rending and pinning qualities, making it very similar to a TT sniper rifle of the scouts he trains.

I think his reply was actually sarcastic.

That said, I still don't buy it. Taking aimed shots does not equal sniping. I can take "aimed shots" with an AA-12 as well - this will only increase the shot's accuracy, not magically turn the weapon into something it wasn't designed for. Bolt weapons are not gyrojets (which actually are more accurate than standard guns). They have a conventional firing method, a way too short barrel, and a massive recoil. Bolts have a rocket motor to increase their effective distance and penetration, not for sniping. Else every boltgun would have the Accurate trait, anyways.

One could, of course, develop guided bolt ammunition like the Executor rounds though.

Just my two Thrones.

I don't see a problem with an accurate bolt weapon. Since the "push" for the shell is suppliad by the shell itself, a long barrel is not needed for accuracy. Thus, I belive that making an accurate bolt pistol is much simpler then making an accurate SP pistol, relative to the "basic" weapons of either class of weapons.

The only problem I see arises from when the shell ignites it's proppelant. Chances are it will wooble a bit, unless the ignition is exremely precise (very likely), and any form of woobling in the moment of ignition will send the shell waaay of target.

Bolt weapons are not gyrojets

Then what do they use for the rocket motor ?

Lexicanum has this bit of text: As the round leaves the barrel, the bolt's tiny rocket is ignited, which carries the warhead forward and imparts a stabilizing spin.

The stabilising spin sounds a lot like a gyrojet.

They have a conventional firing method ,

Then the rocket motor kicks in. Besides, conventional firing methods don't prevent it being a sniper weapons, if it did then snipers wouldn't exist in reality.

a way too short barrel,

That won't be a problem on a bolt weapon designed for sniping.

and a massive recoil.

By the time you feel the recoil, wouldn't the bolt have left the barrel ?

Bolts have a rocket motor to increase their effective distance

How do you increase effective distance without increasing accuracy ?

Else every boltgun would have the Accurate trait, anyways.

No, because the short barrel you complained about earlier does reduce accuracy. But that won't be a problem on a sniper boltgun, because it has a longer barrel.

Bilateralrope said:

Gyrojets are rocket-only weapons. A boltgun is essentially a hybrid which is why they behave like a hand cannon when fired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet

Bilateralrope said:

Which may be why sniper rifles have meter-long barrels, bi-pods and don't work with every kind of ammunition. Or why there are no sniper pistols.

Bilateralrope said:

So you're proposing a boltgun with a bipod and a meter-long barrel? That's ... quite a novel idea for the setting. I'd think that we shouldn't introduce stuff that did not exist in the fluff, even if it would be realistic, but of course YMMV.
It is an interesting idea, though, I give you that.

Bilateralrope said:

No - the recoil happens both before and (mostly) after the bolt has left the weapon. There's some discussion about it on the internets, for example this: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/does-recoil-efect-accuracy-52967/index2.html
It's not much, but enough to make a difference.

Bilateralrope said:

A rocket motor necessarily increases a projectile's range - it doesn't mean that it always has to be more accurate, especially as we're talking about an unguided weapon system (see: Katyusha launcher vs conventional artillery). Basically, the accuracy depends just as much on the weapon firing the "missile" as it does on the missile itself, and I just think the massive recoil that is mentioned in the fluff again and again would be a problem here.

Of course you could come up with a pure gyrojet weapon using de-shelled bolts, or significantly lower a bolt round's primary igniter to trade accuracy for penetration, I suppose. It still feels somewhat "wrong" for me (as I think it'd take a bit more to turn a boltgun into a sniper rifle), but opinions are opinionated.

I never did understand the massive recoil references being made, especially in connection with Astartes weapons in the hands of "norms".

It seems to me a bolt gun would only need to have enough recoil to kick the bolt clear of the barrel. The primary strength of such a system would be that small bursts or salvoes could be accurately fired at a target with minimum recoil affecting subsequent rounds in the burst. The flare from the bolts might be quite distracting though.

Of course, the novels also have lasguns and especially long-las rifles kicking people in the shoulder hard enough to bruise flesh, and the game subjects them to the same recoil rules as SP weapons for burst and full auto fire. So yeah...

The Angelus is probably one of the deadlier "sniper" weapons in the game though.

Lynata said:

I wasn't being sarcastic. I think bolters in general are meant to pour on the gunfire and not resort to "dainty" single shots. However, I admit I haven't read all Space Marine material out there. So sure, there could be a sniper version of a bolter here and there in the books. Overall though, I accept the "sniper" version of the bolter they made in the Rogue Trader book "Into the Storm" since it came with the explanation of having a very simplified firing mechanism (single shot only) and a longer barrel.

*blink* Hadn't ment to start a discussion like this with my quest for a little boost to BS munchkining for my dual shot gunslinger (I do so hate missing those Emperor forsaken heratics), but it's cool! Thanks for all the advice on my quest for awesome pistols.

As for the other part of the conversation, There is a design for a sniper bolt rifle, it's just not a highly used weapon. Probably difficult to manufacture or some such. I always kinda felt as well that space marine scout sniper rifles were themselves bolt weapons, just using a special type of bolt round then the standard rifle/pistol.

Bladehate said:

You have to remember that even though a bolt round has self propultions after it leaves the gun to give it a flatter tregectory and more punch, you still have to throw that .75 caliber round out at ballistic speeds. No small or gental feat as anyone who .50 pistol round will atest too. Weapons desinged for Astartes use are probably of denser materials, making the round heavier and needing more force, would have grips not ment for a normal mans hands, and they probably wouldn't think as much about recoil compensation since an Astartes's strength and impact resilience is so much higher. That and the Astartes weapon's war spirits don't like non-Astartes using them.

I don't have an explanation for Las weapons, since the description implies that the rounds are almost pure photonic energy and hence, shouldn't have much mass, but that's the 40k world for ya'. 'Probly only a small number of Magos even truly know the principles behind the gun anyhow. Game mechanics are easier and more balanced to apply recoil universally anyhow.

Quartermus said:

Oh! Apologies, then, for misunderstanding you. And I admit, I am kind of used to the combination of boltguns and burst fire as well, though I do think that semi-auto shots are quite fitting too, especially when "double-tapping" the trigger in quick succession.

There have been lots of different interpretations on how boltguns fire and sound in various games, which is why people have so many different ideas about how they should work. For example, Chaos Gate had bolt weapons stuck on single shots, whilst Dawn of War used the "spray 'n pray" formula.

That said, I often thought that boltguns are rather close to the modern day AA-12 [

Quartermus said:

Thanks for explaining the differences of this gun, I do not have that supplement (yet). That at least makes more sense than the "Accurate" quality on the Angelus.

Moonshine Fox said:

Well, up until DH came out, the one and only difference between an Astartes and a non-Astartes bolter in the fluff was its size, weight and battlefield resilience. I'm almost surprised they did not retcon the caliber, too, just because absolutely everything the Marines use has to be bigger and better, including their latrinarium plungers.

Here's some fluff from my trusty old Munitorum Manual :

The boltgun is most commonly recognized as the standard weapon of the Adeptus Astartes and, though it is not unknown for certain high-ranking officers to bear such advanced and powerful weaponry, it is incredibly rare. Bolters are more effective weapons than the standard pattern lasgun and are able to punch through most forms of armour with little or no effort. They are, however, much more complex and are generally only ever carried by stocky individuals of great strength, given that they are incredibly heavy and generate enormous recoil when they fire what is essentially a miniature missile

[...] A bolter can fire a single-shot, a four-round burst or fully automatic fire, though without bionic augmentation it is not recommended that anyone other than one of the Space Marines fires on anything other than the single shot setting.

But yeah, now we have Arbites and Sororitas use "civilian" bolters... ¬_¬

Moonshine Fox said:

They did explain it by saying it's the sudden expansion of superheated air pushing back the barrel. Doesn't sound very solid, but it's a good enough excuse for me. This effect is also what creates the "cracking" sound, though this depends on the power setting of the weapon:

From my Uplifting Primer :

The lasgun has a distinct sound which can be useful to know on the battlefield. On the low power setting it has a whining sound, and on full power a sharp cracking report.

Moonshine Fox said:

I don't disagree with you, but it could just as easily be argued that the initial charge to clear the bolt from the barrel is a good deal smaller then a standard SP round. I don't have a physics degree or anything, but common sense seems to back that up. I guess it depends on how much of a boost the bolt itself needs to achieve its optimal velocity.

In my game I just explain it away it by saying that although the bolt has a booster rocket on it, the more speed the rocket can pick up from the initial charge, the better. That seems to have satisfied my common sense and my players...

Bladehate said:

Which is quite true, as otherwise a boltgun would seriously lack penetration in close combat - a pure gyrojet round achieves its maximum penetration at 20 meters, and Astartes in particular probably wouldn't be happy about their bolts bouncing off Guardsmen Flak just because they like to get in close. So, if you want the bolt round to have maximum efficiency, you're going to require a primer equaling an SP weapon that utilizes caliber .75 rounds.

As per the internets, a cal .70 round produces an approximate recoil of about 220 Joule in force, which is ten times the recoil of an average Winchester hunting rifle. Now imagine if you go even higher for .75, which is a caliber somewhat close to ship-mounted Oerlikon cannons (20mm as opposed to the ~19 of a boltgun).

That said, there actually is a sniper rifle utilizing a 20mm anti-armour round. It should be noted, though, that - in addition to the usual long barrel - it also requires an extensive recoil reduction system to make the rifle at least somewhat accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT-20_%28rifle%29

Maybe you can construct a "sniper boltgun" based on this example, though it will likely end up looking notably different from standard patterns. I'd also rule that the weapon needs to be Braced to utilize the Accurate quality.

A sniper boltgun already exists. It is the Stalker pattern boltgun. Its present in Deathwatch of course buts it makes an appearance in the Space Marine codex on Scout Sergeant Telion who bears it as his primary weapon.

One thing to consider when talking accuracy, is what is being shot and what is it being shot at. You could call a 120 mortar round accurate, but it is aiming at a TRP of 10m. The bolter is a huge pistol. It would dwarf a .50cal. And Astartes and Sororitas are generally using these bad boys against some Pretty large targets, Daemons @ Xenos, but if you are saying that vs a human size target that it is accurate compared to a lasgun, probably not.

Bladehate said:

I've always had a problem with this concept, as well. I feel that the recoil should be minimal, like a normal handgun. The bolt only needs to clear the barrel by maybe a couple of inches? This is one of those subjects where I just shrug my shoulders & go on with my life.

Stalker Pattern Boltgun:

I do agree that the stalker probably should have a longer barrel. On the other hand, when has GW ever been a stickler for realism?

I really like the look of the regular scout sniper rifles, I would probably use one of these for a stalker pattern instead:

Accurate Bolt Gun is established in the fluff, TT,some variants already in game so that shouldn't be much of a problem.

As previously mentioned, Accurate Bolt PISTOL doesn't have any examples, negates the concept of an elongated barrel because it's short by definition,wouldn't even benefit from the best portion of Accurate since Accurate extra damage only applies to Basic weapons as per page 8 of the Errata.

IMO, "Accurate" and "Pistol" are two words that shouldn't be used together. I realize that this is a game so we will probably see some unrealistic stuff, but a "sniper pistol" is just playing against type for me and kinda ruins the whole archetype. I'm sure there's even an example of an Accurate pistol in game already, but don't push your luck too far.

On an unrelated note, just to weigh in on the off-topic discussions of the rest of the post, Lasguns make absolutely zero scientific sense, so I don't try to relate them to normal lasers in any way. So as far as recoil, longer barrel meaning increased accuracy (lolwut? It flies perfectly straight, how is it not ALWAYS accurate?) I just have to close my mind and will myself into suspension of disbelief. Which is hard, since I'm an engineer.

Also on the note of Bolt weapon recoil, since the bolt needs to clear the barrel at ballistic speeds to begin with, it will have a shoulder-obliterating recoil in many cases. Theoretically, a bolt pistol's barrel could be pressed to a man's head and still hit with about the same force as it would from 10 to 20 meters, which speaks of a very powerful initial charge.

Recoil impacts accuracy heavily. Unless the weapon is appreciably non-rigid, you will "feel" the recoil at the same instant the bullet "feels" the push forward. This allows for plenty of time for aim to be skewed by motions of the barrel before the bullet exits and it's path is fixed.

EDIT: This board definitely eats certain words at random. Had to replace like 8 instances of "and" in my post.

At Last Forgot said:

Typically, the only pistols with the Accurate quality are duelling pistols - extremely high-quality, precision-manufactured devices for high society in ritualised conditions, often only carrying a single shot, rather than tools of warfare"sniper pistols".