Lynata said:

That's good and fine as long as it doesn't get serious (like the debate about female space marines). Lobbying in here is irrelevant. Nobody at FFG will make a decision based on someone (including me) in here lobbying for or against something, at least not on something that fundamental. They either want the Space Marines to be much better than the SoBs or not. That is probably more guided by prospective sales than "artistic integrity" anyway.

Lynata said:

Okay, you have a point there. Chances are it was an intentional deviation though.

Lynata said:

Then I have an advice for you: these long elaborate debates won't help your cause. Your actual arguments will drown in all the talk. With the goals you have in mind, it's better to use rapier than claymore. Be aware of your core argument and bring forth at the right occasion.

Sometimes less is more, Sister Lynata.

Lynata said:

Right, that's why I talked of it as a possibility. In my estimation what might happen is that different authors will choose different interpretations depending on who is the protagonist of their novel. If you have an author who is a Deathwatch RPG player and fan, it probably will have an impact.

Alex

So, me and this chick are sitting on a sand beach during sunset. Warm sun is enveloping us while we stare at each others eyes. The waves are very faint, but at same time their sound is contributing to the general good mood. We both have one hand on the sand and one behind our back. I am a very strong muscular man with two hearts and bones as hard as steel. She is a silver haired maiden strong in faith with unrelenting devotion to her cause. Both of us love and at the same time despise each other. Behind my back there is a bolter with one bullet. Behind hers is also a bolter with a bullet. Although I could crush and suck the life out of her with my bare hands prior to blinding her with acid, but I don't want to. There is a point to prove. She also had the look of a seductive killer full of wrath beneath the surface. Her faith alone is enough to claim lives before firing a shot. She was also hesitant. Just prior to the moment of drawing a gun to blow each others brains out, we suddenly realized...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJv5qLsLYoo

At Last Forgot said:

Macho Women With Guns!

Alex

ak-73 said:

Oh boy ... I didn't miss much, I suppose.

ak-73 said:

Hmm, maybe it was a bad choice of words on my part. What I wanted to express is: Sisters as a faction don't have many friends but - likely due to several elements in their theme overlapping with the Marines - many enemies. I thus feel a certain need to jump into the breach when I feel they are treated unjustly. Simply because few others will.

In case of the two different "weapon classes" this goes doubly so because I see not only the Sisters but the Guard and Inquisition treated badly as well.

ak-73 said:

I'm not entirely sure how I should tackle this. I feel sort of "obliged" to explain certain misconceptions in the hopes that the aforementioned facts seem less weird to people who question them, in turn hoping that they may be easier to accept - for example why their power armour is so much smaller. In addition I'm always happy to share what little there is in terms of SoB fluff, simply because it is not very circulated due to the small number of publications. Naturally, as is the nature with every public forum, this leads to discussions moving back and forth with lots of sub-themes and even off-topic talk.

Cardinal: *lol* I don't know what to say, I'm both amazed as well as amused. Kudos to you for this very philosophical posting.

A million people is barely enough to be the military arm of France. The idea that there could be a mere 1 million people in the military arm of the hugely powerful pangalactic Eccelsiarchy is simply laughable, not to mention completely and utterly useless for any military purpose. There are, what, 5 Sisters Militant in the Calixis Sector?

NOTE: Space Marines are not a military arm. They are independent orders of knights who do hit-and-run missions. They do not hold territory or otherwise perform conventional military missions.

Lynata said:

The answer is obvious: to top Rogue Trader.

Lynata said:

I have had Marines with TB 6 because T was in the 30s.

Lynata said:

Okay, a general thing: there is no accurate representation and there is no "normals". What there is, is different interpretations. You choose your interpretation, others choose theirs. A company like FFG has to choose their own too.

Lynata said:

I've already pointed you a way: increase DH weapon damages a bit and decrease DW weapon damages a bit. You'll still have two levels of weaponry but the difference will be not too significant.

Lynata said:

I have never been too fond of the SoB but enmity would be preposterous. Actually I have grown quite accustomed to them over the years.
Just stick to the core message or you will end up dispersing your energies instead of focussing them.

Lynata said:

I'd rather follow an effective plan than act out of impulse. One doesn't need to counter any unfair attack, only get one's key message out a couple of times, that's enough for everyone to form their own opinion. It's not who maintains their view most often or most loudly prevails.

Lynata said:

Well, if you enjoy it, right on, I say. But the longer a debate is, the greater the number of people who skip it entirely.

Alex

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Most Ecclesiarchal domains are actually guarded by Frateris Militia. They're not exactly supposed to fill this function as it touches upon the Decree Passive, but their lack of training and generally meager equipment as well as the inability of the Battle Sisters to be everywhere usually leads to this being overlooked (depending on the Ecclesiarchy's influence on the particular place and its importance).

The military role of the Sisters of Battle is not too unlike that of the Astartes. Like them, they are not generally supposed to hold territory (that's what the PDF is for), which is why you'll only find a single squad of Battle Sisters on Scintilla, guarding the sector's most important Cathedral. The largest concentration of Sisters Militant in the Calixis Sector seems to be the 50-strong Mission led by Palatine Rhiannon of the Order of the Ebon Chalice that has only recently arrived from elsewhere, and its mere presence is actually cause for much speculation amongst the nobility because it is expected that they're here for a reason.

Battle Sisters serve as bodyguards, shrine wardens and Ecclesiarchal enforcers, otherwise forming the core of a War of Faith when one is proclaimed and leading castigation missions against heretical governors and clerics or working together with the Arbites to purge mutant population or answer to an Inquisitor's call for backup. The Witch Hunters Codex lists a number of good reasons for them to fight virtually everybody, but there are certain requirements for them to move out. They're not "the Guard in power armour".

ak-73 said:

That sounds pretty balanced, actually. Better than normal people but not invincible. Until they buy stat advancements.

ak-73 said:

Ah, that was not directed at you, I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Just one thing regarding the line from the Witch Hunter's Codex, just because they have access to the same quality of gear that marines have, doesn't mean they have access to the same gear. Perhaps the armories simply include Powered Armor and Bolters and power weapons. If we start arguing that they have exactly the same equipment, I would expect the sisters to look like children trying to wear the marine's armor and trying to lift their bolters. If we look at modern cars, top end European racing vehicles are all in the same class, but some are still better than others. The same page also says the Sisters are armed with "The finest weapons and armor the Ecclesiarchy can provide." Not "the best weaponry and equipment the Imperium can provide" (SM codex, 5th ed. p.3) like the Marines get.

"The Equal of most space marine chapters" could easily mean the same type of weapons and armor, not the same quality. That having been said, I would be happy to have a Battle Sister covering my back. Even if her gun wasn't as big.

by the way, an average bolter shot from the space marine in DH (2d10 tearing) wont kill a starting battle sister, even if she's naked. that's just sad. (Avg 13 damage, -3 for TB. the average starting wounds for chars from the Schola Progenitum is 10. that means they will not even take critical damage. The +5 at least means that they have a decent chance of killing an unarmored human. There are numerous examples in the fluff of marines taking a shot from a lasgun that barely scratches the armor. The DW bolter doesn't need to be toned down IMO.

Lynata said:

In TT, they are indeed the Guard in power armour, +1 BS. They are, in fact, Guardsmen in power armour with better aim who have access to faith abilities if there happens to be a faithful person around, which seems to be about 1 out of 10 battle sisters.

PS. 50 people is not enough to effectively engage in any of these missions.

Fenrisnorth said:

Equal means equal. I can't believe people are still dancing around on this, trying to squeeze this precious Marine uberness out of a sentence that is perfectly clear in its meaning. Even your interpretation does not apply for DH/DW, though. How did DW put it? Even the most common thing that a fresh recruits get thrown on his first pass through the Chapter Armoury will always be better than anything everyone else will ever have. Because it says Astartes on the tin. Different stats weren't enough, they needed an entirely new quality table to emphasize this. And the Godwyn-De'az is still a good quality standard boltgun that doesn't even hold up to the Arbites' Locke-pattern and lacks auto-fire.

Fenrisnorth said:

We already know that Sisters are perfectly capable to lift bolters twice the weight of a Marine's gun. Where exactly do you see the problem? Power Armour ftw.

Fenrisnorth said:

Any. Was twisting the quote intentional or "Marine reflex"?

Fenrisnorth said:

Normal for every roleplaying game, though. I can also give a naked Marine a headshot with a plasma pistol on point blank and it won't leave a scar.

Fenrisnorth said:

And there are numerous examples in the fluff of Marines getting killed by one. Don't get me wrong, of course lasguns aren't meant to be highly effective against Marines. But they're also not supposed to do nothing.

Fenrisnorth said:

Well, depending on whether you'd want to keep DW's combat exaggerated or rather make the different games fit together. Either way is perfectly possible - I'm merely pointing out that this power gap is non-canon.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Of course. Just like Marines are Guard in power armour with more strength and toughness who don't break as easily. If you want to analyze it that way. I thought we were discussing narratives, tactics, purpose and fluff now.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

More than enough for some of them (Purity Control, taking out minor apostates, accompanying an Inquisitor), and more if you factor in the possibility of Frateris Militia or even PDF, Enforcer and Imperial Guard backup. Enough for a Crusade? Of course not. But as I said, their presence is unusual (especially given that they're currently stationed at a place that does not warrant this level of protection) and regarded with suspicion. I did not make that up, it's in the books. I actually think it's meant as a plot hook.

I do not give a monkeys about battle sisters. I don't want to talk about bloody space nuns any more than I want to talk about bloody space elves.

I am more than happy to move Space Marines to their own universe so they can be as awesome as possible without offending anyone. The other races at the moment don't do anything but hold Marines back.

>1>

This page by Phillip Sibbering

http://philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_9_Marine_1_Morphology.shtml

is the single most awesome thing written about Space Marines in the last ten years. Maybe excepting Brothers of the Snake.

I love his hulked out Marines. They are the coolest thing since sliced bread, I want to see more of them.

So what does a thousand pounds of biomechanical killing machine do with all his super strength but carry bigger guns? It makes a lot of sense that a stronger marine carries a bigger gun. And big guns are cool.

None of this is intended as a slight to snotlings or whoever, it is just having fun with my favorite thing in the world - Space Marines.

>2>

I propose that once Marines have left for their own universe to be awesome, anyone who remains behind gets one stat - 6.

This stat is called, the stat, so it doesn't offend anyone. It is 6 for everything from primarchs to chaos gods, so no one feels left out.

AluminiumWolf said:

I actually agree with you there.

On that note, notice how thin the armour is? And that doesn't even account for all the subsystems previously mentioned. Suddenly Sororitas power armour doesn't seem that frail anymore, I hope.

AluminiumWolf said:

Marine boltgun: 20 kilograms, caliber 0.75. Sororitas heavy bolter: 40 kilograms, caliber 1.00. I still don't see the problem.

Once we have established that Marines can actually be a bit better than the most mooky of first level dark heresy one legged retarded ratcatchers, we can do really cool stuff, like have Marines who can fire rounds like these from their sidearms.

Dual wield, akimbo-style?

Lynata said:

Naturally.

Obviously I think the idea of a Space Marine as a force of nature, sweeping normal men aside like Sauron at the start of Peter Jacksons Fellowship of the Ring is pretty cool.

It is, admittedly, something of a challenge to find normal men willing to be swept aside, but still, that would be pretty badass.

Aluminum, why don't you go to this universe right away, and stay there. If you don't want to talk about anything but marines, see www.bolterandchainsword.com

The weights for things in this system is silly. Just the METAL mass for bolter should make it weigh as much as a small motorbike. I also notice you didn't respond to my pointing out the supply sources for the Battle Sisters vs Marines, though I apologize for mistyping the quote, surely it would be better to address issues than pick on one word that doesn't make much difference.

For all the Marine-hate you don't have, you seem to talk them down a great deal. I seems like you do want to portray the Battle Sisters as being a more elite force than the Marines. All those organs and fancy systems you reference don't seem to do much in your mind. They are supposed to make the Marines stronger and tougher than humans. Now humans can get to +78 in a stat at the end of Ascension. Surely marines shouldn't have 80S and 80T that would be madness as they'd never fail a roll. To accurately portray the Space Marines as superhuman, meaning beyond human capacity. the easiest thing to turn to is the Unnatural Traits. But no, that's too good.

I'm sure if I combed all the space marine codices I could come up with a line that says the Marines are "better equipped than any other Imperial military force." or something to that effect. In fact, I just looked through the witch hunters book, and the munitorum manual, (Which it turns out I had) and I didn't see mention of the caliber of the bolter shells in either. Now, I'm not perfect, so I might have missed it, but that does leave the possibility of different sizes of bolt shells, just like lasguns powerpacks are likely not all the same size and shape.

Fenrisnorth said:

Nonsense! With the -354% modifier for picking up a tank to throw at someone they'd never pass!

150% in a stat just means you can take on -100% tasks with a 50/50 chance of success.

Fenrisnorth said:

And even if that would be the case a heavy bolter would still be larger and weigh more than a boltgun.

Fenrisnorth said:

Does that even matter when it already clearly states that their equipment is equal?

If you are truly interested, though, of course I shall elaborate. Originally it was Vandire who had ordered the Sisters - at that time known as Brides of the Emperor and acting as the High Lord's bodyguards and personal enforcers - to be equipped with the best the Imperium has to offer, which meant contracting the Adeptus Mechanicus. After the High Lord died and the Age of Apostasy had ended, Sebastian Thor made a deal with the AdMech to allow Mechanicus supervision of all Ministorum forges and maintenance facilities in the Convent Prioris in return for permanent loan of the machinery required for the production of the Sisters' power armour and bolters. The Ministorum/Sororitas still rely on the Mechanicus for the supply of more esoteric wargear, and given the somewhat strained relationships between both organizations this makes such shipments sporadic at best. As both the Ministorum as well as the AdMech are somewhat dependent on each other (the Ministorum for all the things it cannot produce itself, and the Mechanicus for all the technological discoveries made by the Missionarus Galaxia) it still works out somehow, though.

Let me take this opportunity to point out that there have also been boltgun patterns that have been issued to both the Sisters as well as the Marines, such as the Mars-beta.

Fenrisnorth said:

You are right by this, and I apologize. I simply happen to be slightly on the edge because a lot of people have tried in the past to pick my quotes apart and turn each single word around several times in the hopes of finding some loophole to preserve that precious Astartes gear superiority that seems to have been wrongly established in people's mind as some kind of unwritten law. I don't truly believe you did it intentionally, and I overreacted.

I do have to point out that you are still trying to do the same as the others, though, even with this one sentence that really leaves not an inch of room for interpretation. Equal means equal. Not close, not almost and not nearly. "Deal with it."

Fenrisnorth said:

How so? I have already explained what they do multiple times in this thread, how this allows them to keep on going where others would fail, and how this gives them an edge in combat, and how this could (and is - DW characters receive a whole bag of additional traits and talents just from them!) be portrayed in the game. What I do not understand is why everyone clings to armour protection and weapon damage as if this would be the only thing setting them apart? It is quite ironic that it is me that actually mentioned them first, as the Marine faction really seems to focus just on the gear and the gear alone.

Should I really make a long list where Marine characters are superior to "normals" in DW? Would that make people feel better and the notion of "equal gear" easier to stomach?

Fenrisnorth said:

70. If you rolled two 10's at character creation.

Fenrisnorth said:

Because the way that Unnatural Traits work right now creates a huge gap, and it shows by (a) making such characters invincible to things they should not be invincible to and (b) throwing the weapon and adversary tables off-balance with the other games. Otherwise we'd also not have such
Flat multipliers have never been a good idea in any game.

I have already expressed my scepticism towards TB concerning normal characters and mundane weapons as well, if that means anything to you. It's not like I'm looking solely at the Astartes on this one, it's just that they are the most exaggerated example (given that there is still a major difference between "damage seems too low" and "no chance of getting wounded at all").

Fenrisnorth said:

You can try. At least you'd be the first who actually attempts to counter official quotes with official quotes instead of repeating personal opinion. If you truly find something that says their boltguns do more damage than any other and it chronologically supersedes the statements I posted then I'll cease this argument and admit defeat. Given that - to my knowledge - Dark Heresy was the first book that claimed there actually is any difference at all I wouldn't be so sure of it, though.

Fenrisnorth said:

Even Dark Heresy admits that its bolter rounds are caliber 0.75 - see page 133 of the Core Rulebook. I'm pretty sure I can dig up other sources if that is not enough for you.

Not that it truly matters, for equal still means equal.

Feral worlder +5 Str, thought begets heresy, Heresy begets retribution divination +3 Str

Yes, they get a bunch of talents, but at least a third of the organs just "Contribute to Unnatural Strength / Toughness" What else would you have them do +10 stat just isn't that much.

Also, most of the stuff in a Marine's armor can be built into normal DH armor, just for a price. the only thing the Black Carapce does is help offset the "Hulking" trait.

I'll look up what the total throne gelt cost would be on thursday, it's getting late for research

The problem I have is not "WAAAAAAH, Sisters have to SUCK", but "By the Allfather, my Boltgun does nothing against that Hive tyrant!" I know it would unbalance DH to bring DW characters into it, combat-wise, unless the GM is very careful, and marines do fight things normal people aren't equipped to handle. Fighting Tyranids is not what Sisters are for. They are (from what I can see) for protecting against domestic threats.

Marines are for fighting the toughest of the tough, cutting the head from the beast. I've read what you have written about TB, and I disagree, I see where you are coming from, but it's not something I consider a viable solution. The whole Primative thing just doesn't have a big effect. I mean, almost nothing is really Primative, so you're talking about very little damage reduction. I had a few ideas, but I'm sure none of them are original. I really think Pen should affect TB, though maybe not entirely.

And equal doesn't mean identical, not unless you mean a math equation, which fluff is not.

AluminiumWolf said:

Over the years since 40kRP began, I've seen the same person put forward this idea and others like it six times under six different pseudonyms. Each time, on every official 40kRP forum, he's been banned for excessive trolling of any thread that even dares to consider that the Astartes might be anything less than improbably potent world-shattering gods. I know for a fact that you've also been warned repeatedly, and temporarily banned in one case, on RPG.net for trolling on 40kRP threads.

If you're not that same person, stop it... down this road leads nothing but horror, antagonism and endless frustration for everyone. If you are the same person... frankly, I don't have the time or effort to deal with you anymore.

@Lynata: Do you honestly believe that the "Astartes distinction" could be a mistake? Given that several freelancers working on 40kRP are former GW Design Studio staff, one of whom worked on Codex: Witchhunters... well, I don't think that in-depth knowledge of the setting is absent from the writers working on 40kRP books. And, quite frankly, as someone who is extremely proud to count myself amongst the writers of several 40kRP books (Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, another one for RT further ahead on the schedule, and the Black Crusade rulebook), I find it hard to believe that such a change as this would come about accidentally.

What annoys me more about the situation is that you continue to present the issue you're railing against as if it's some kind of preposterous delusion on the part of everyone who disagrees with you, as opposed to being published in several books that have all been approved by GW, by people who really do know what they're talking about. Yes, equal means equal. Except that the material claiming that "fact" has since been contradicted. If you don't like it... tough. The fact that you don't consider 40kRP material to be valid on this matter (and, indeed, frequently act as if it doesn't exist except as some nebulous concept that offends your sensibilities) demonstrates your argument to be essentially petulant whining about having your toys taken away.

she does deserve a quote on that point, which I am trying to find, once I can really think straight.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Except your inclusion of Deathwatch's fluff as a reason why Lynata's prior fluff isn't canon is something of a circular argument from the get-go. Her argument is that, when it comes to SOLELY the capabilities of bolters and armor, all past fluff (Including that found in the Tabletop codices, the Black Library publications, Imperial Armour, this Munitorium manual, and even Dark Heresy itself) seems to support her position that, well, Deathwatch's assertion that Astartes bolters are so much more overwhelmingly potent goes against established fluff.

Does one throw away a mountain of older, faded, but still mostly serviceable fluff for a single shiny, new, top-o-the-line fluff-piece? Was the decision to make the Astartes grade bolters better a fluff decision or a balance/stylistic decision? That's really the issue in this thread, and I frankly think Lynata has done a wonderful (and likely annoyingly repetitive) job of establishing what the older fluff indicates: that there's no significant difference between the bolters of Astartes and the bolters of Sisters except in the durability of its construction, that a Sister's Heavy Bolter can and should outperform an Astartes regular boltgun, and that there are mechanical issues like Unnatural Toughness, enemy difficulty scaling, and the general 'epic/legendary' feel that require for the purposes of balance an upward adjustment of astartes gear to make sense within-system.

Sister Lynata has consistently and frankly stated that, were the fluff to continue down the path it has taken in Deathwatch, she would cease to argue... But that, in the contradictory universe of 40k, a single fluff refutation does not a trend make. Just as consistently, you've repeated how the new fluff is the end-all be-all, that the writers knew EXACTLY what they were doing in contradicting older fluff (and I'm sure Lynata appreciates your implicit agreement that the old fluff DID state that Astates and Sister gear was equal ), and that she should just shut up and take it because, well, of COURSE this fluff trend is going to continue and of course it won't be contradicted in the future.

TLDR: Lynata is not arguing about what the most recent "trend" of fluff is concerning bolter equality, as that would be silly - of course the latest fluff is that they're inequal. Lynata is arguing that the most recent "trend" of fluff is contradictory to the general and long-established trend the fluff has taken since the Sister were introduced, and is far more likely to be a result of a percieved need to balance the wonky mechanics Astartes need to use to fit into the Dark Heresy system framework than an explicit retcon of decades of fluff that happens to be nestled in the Deathwatch RPG.

Am I overstepping my bounds, Lynata? I don't want to put too many words in your mouth...

Unusualsuspect said:

Just wanna chime in that this is my impression also, and even though I agree I haven't felt the need to continue to argue the point. There IS a fluff excuse in DH/DW, but it is essentially retconned for balance reasons and the new fluff is supposed to justify that and almost makes it... but not quite as neither recoil nor weight should be an issue for tripod-mounted or vehicle weapons.

And i also don't have the Unshakeable Faith Talent when it comes to the game designers and their infinite wisdom in doing this and declaring past scources Heretical

Unusualsuspect said:

The term equal doesn't always mean exactly the same.

Sisters have bolters and power armor. Astartes have bolters and power armor. Therefore they are equal. That in no way means that their equipment is of the same quality or that these two vastly different fighting forces are the same.

In WWII the U.S. and Germany both had tanks. They were equal. German tanks were much higher quality. The Tiger tank generally didn't have it's ammo blow when it was struck like the Sherman did.

We can also bring up the “Separate but Equal” segregationist educational doctrine of the U.S. in the early 20th century. This is a shining example of how equal can mean two very different things and how, once you get past the verbiage, equal can mean in name only.

I had really, really thought we had gotten past the fact that caliber is purely a measurement of diameter and nothing more.

As to Astartes resupply, I always held and liked the idea that there are cashes of Astartes ammo and weapons hidden throughout the Imperium, accessible only to Astartes, under everyone's noses, just in case.