ak-73 said:

And to that I agree (and I agree with the wonky melta stats). And you do recall correctly, the base stats for the HB in DH are 2d10 pen 5, which will have trouble hurting a marine with a toughness of 40 or more. So add a couple of points of pen or damage and you should be 'within reason' (at least within my view of reason). The weapons become even more in line with each other if you tie them to your DW bolt damage houserules. I don't think it would muck up DH that much either, as in that game it's much easier to control player access to equipment and ammunition.

Letrii said:

Yes and it's called a heavy bolter. The other bolters do 1d10+5. DW bolters do 2d10+10 and 2d10+5 respectively. Then when you throw the differences between DH and DW toughness/armor/wounds people end up scratching their heads and ask the now infamous question "why are these boltguns better." Then people say that DW essentially 'nerfed' their characters and other Imperial groups already established in DH, and don't like them being 'movie marines' and then other people jump in to their defense and then we argue about the unnatural stat calculations, and you end up with 7 or so pages of thread.

Charmander said:

My group's assassin had a bolter as starting gear. Hasn't fired off a single shot yet at Rank 4, I believe. Too costly.

And the question actually is "why are these boltguns that much better?" The bolter gets a boost of 5 points, the HB of astonishing, breath-taking 10 points. If all 10 shots are hitting, that is a 100 damage points difference.

Alex

I read somewhere that Astartes bolters are sized for them and too big for a human hand. Could that explain difference in damage?

Letrii said:

Not really, they both fire the same caliber (0.75) and have a similar barrel size - and if you look at the pictures in the DW book the bolts are quite short, too, so it couldn't be explained by bullet length either (at least in terms of possible production options).

Damage comes from the ammunition, not the gun, so the size of the latter is not really an indicator. There is also a weapon in the IH that allows normal people to fire Astartes bolts. The one and only explanation (or excuse) would be that Astartes bolts are simply better and no-one else uses rounds of similar quality, be it because they do not want to (production cost) or because they are not allowed to - one player theorized there could simply be a law about maximum yield or whatever preventing even other Imperial organizations from employing such powerful bolts. Out of all possible explanations, this is the only one that cannot be ruled out and thus remains a viable theory.

Letrii said:

See above

You've got several pages that discuss this here, and you can check out the DW forums and search for bolter or boltgun and come up with several more pages on the same subject. The rules are as you describe, the issue is not everyone feels that makes a whole lot of sense.

Lynata said:

The information above seems to indicate that an Astartes Boltgun uses a round as powerful as those mentioned in some of the above weapons, generating too much recoil for any mere mortal to ever be able to handle.

So, to accomidate those without the superhuman advanced physique of a Space Marine, a greatly toned down round would need to be made for mortal use, as well as weapons for firing them... I suppose such a round would inflict less damage, as a result.

Blood Pact said:

Although it should be noted that "mere mortals" are quite able to, with the use of power armour, achieve a level of strength similar to a Space Marine.

By the way, the information I provided there was meant to apply to bolt weapons in general. Apart from that, keep in mind that bolt rounds have their own rocket motor - the speed of the bullet as it leaves the barrel would only matter for Penetration in close combat, not over distance (as the bolt's own propellant would quickly compensate the difference).

Blood Pact said:

Which is, of course, at odds with the very idea behind and the description of the Angelus carbine, which allows everyone to shoot Marine ammo. Unlike the Sacristan bolt pistol that penalizes anyone below SB4.

Lynata said:

But wouldn't realistically speaking a longer barrel mean greater exit speed? Plus a longer barrel would mean better aim.

Alex

ak-73 said:

To paraphrase what I have learned from Lynata : The only thing that determines how good a projectile is and what can fire it, is it's diameter.

ak-73 said:

Yes and no - we have to keep in mind that Astartes bolters, whilst being larger indeed, are not that much larger. But the exit speed would matter little, anyways, as the 2nd stage propellant would take over acceleration as soon as the round leaves the barrel - it is rocket-propelled ammunition, after all. Aside from all that, aim would of course not alter a weapon's damage potential.

Also, bolt pistols - that have an even shorter barrel - do exactly the same damage as boltguns in this RPG.

ItsUncertainWho said:

To paraphrase what I have learned from Lynata : The only thing that determines how good a projectile is and what can fire it, is it's diameter.

No, I just think (and said) that - given the shortness of Astartes bolt rounds - there is little reason to make the other rounds even shorter as they would be perfectly able to fit into magazines made for "mortal" bolters anyways. Aside from wanting to inflict less damage or use a slower velocity, of course.

You make it sound as if Marine bolts are three or four times longer. They're not.

Lynata said:

Good point. This game isn't about realism anyway, it's all a matter of what kind of game world do you want. Personally I don't have no problems with the girls kicking lower back ends. Give them SoB issue only special Vengeance rounds that misfire only on a 00.

Alex

Ah, I dunno - of course we also have to keep balancing in mind. From what I've seen, bolt weapons work pretty good the way they are, the problem is just that they differ between DH and DW because both are games of a completely different scope whose characters seem inherently incompatible with each other. The way Unnatural traits work as per the RAW make Space Marines invincible to things they shouldn't be invincible to as per the fluff, for example, which of course also affects the way their enemies work and what weapons the players have to be given to counter that. I still think it would be enough to "buff" or "debuff" weapon damage depending on what character moves from one game to the other.

Another option would be to come up with some more sensible differences between different types of bolt weapons and ammunition that do not rely on titles but rather a person's actual constitution. For example, here we are differencing between 1d10+5 and 1d10+6 ammunition with the latter being military issue - something I would expect Marine bolters to use as well (about the same average damage as the DH Marines' 2d10). All Marine bolt weapons would be Reliable, though, and can be used as a hammer in close combat without further modification. A further benefit might be that their magazines take more ammunition, given that they are slightly larger.

About bolter: Who cares? It's a great weapon for DH and DW respectively. No matter the stats, in both game it's a darn good weapon. I guess if you're power gamer you would have problem with it. I don't know anybody from my gaming group who is bothered by this. It's a pretty far off weapon for starting DH characters anyway. And if the need for it's buffing or nerfing in any game would be necessary, it's fairly easy to do. As they are now, I have no problem.

Back to he original OP. I enjoy both games equally. Depends on what my group of friends currently wants to play. If we want some cult infiltration or good old underhive loitering, we play DH. If we want some heroic horde fighting super-heroes, then we roll Space Marines. Each game has it's own advantages. Although it is true that it's far easier to be 'in character' playing DH, then it is playing DW. Mainly because you start as nobody, some random joe in really big and unforgiving universe, so it's easier to form a personality from 'scratch'. In DW you are playing at least a century or more 'well-seasoned' genetically enhanced super soldier. That can be, well, tough for some as it's pretty hard to just roleplay that kind of character right off the bat. My players are struggling at the moment with this a bit. But step by step it is coming to them. All have extensive knowledge of 40k universe so it's a bit easier for them to do so. And for those who say, even we were thinking that at the start, that DW has little roleplay value, that I can assure anybody, is not true. We are playing Emperor's Protect adventure - Price of Hubris, and at the very start on the Rogue Trader's ship things became really tense. One of the players interrupted me in the middle of the session and just wanted to point out the fact that the game really has no less roleplay value than DH or RT.

Ok, enough from me. Continue the bolter nonsense and circlej*rk it around

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

You can't seperate these games unfortunately. Because when you play the DW, traitor guards will have Mortal (=DH) Heavy Bolters that will for the most part do diddley-squat against the marines.

Alex

Isn't that how it's supposed to be when mortals attack Astartes?

Indeed.

Which is why we have the Horde rules, because frankly you would need a group of men to take down a Marine, by concentrating their fire. It doesn't matter if a single Lasgun can't do squat, since they're not really supposed to. It's when they pour on the fire of a squad's worth, or more, that it should start to have an effect.

Blood Pact said:

A single heavy bolter has more firepower than a squad of lasguns.

Alex

Blood Pact said:

Not quite. Horde rules exist because Unnatural traits made Space Marines invincible to weapons they are not meant to be invincible to.

Realistically, an individual lasgun does not magically start to do more damage just because it gets used in greater number. As per the fluff, every lasgun would have a miniscule chance to hurt a Marine (think a Guardsman having to roll a 10 to do just a single wound). That Space Marines don't die in droves when fighting against Guard is because the chance is so small. But it is there in the fluff and in the TT - it just does not exist in the RPG; here you need some wonky special rules to circumvent the broken game mechanic that is Unnatural stats.

Why not use some form of the Dual Shot mechanic in addition to the horde rules? For every two in a Horde, it's a dual shot....which would allow only one soak of their toughness? Or, if that makes them TOO weak, make it for every 3 or 4. That way you still get the feel of how 'ard a Space Marine is, but also give the needed effect for concentrated fire.

Generally, I like some of the ideas that have been posted about simply "fixing" Unnatural Toughness ... here's three options I recall:

• make all characters' TB only count as Primitive, but Unnatural Toughness protects against all weapons
• make Unnatural Toughness a fixed +2/+3(?) bonus to TB
• any attack that penetrates the armour causes at least 1 wound

The Horde rules still have potential - if they'd just get reworked in a way as to combine and then distribute the attack and damage rolls of entire groups of opponents instead of being primarily meant as a way to balance UT. Basically just allowing GMs to ease up on the dice-rolling. This way they could get implemented into DH and RT as well.

Lynata said:

And here's where you're wrong. Because Lasguns really aren't supposed to be a significant threat to a Space Marine. The Horde mechanic isn't to compensate for the 'broken' unnatural toughness, because it's not broken.

It accurately represents that while a single Lasgun has a miniscule chance of hurting a marine, a dozen Lasguns will, together thanks to their weight of fire, be able to put at least a small dent in someone. Horde doesn't make a single Lasgun more power, it represents that the members of the horse are firing in a big volley.

Blood Pact said:

And in case you skipped a few of my posts: I've never said that. The problem is that lasguns aren't any threat to a player character in DW. And neither would the Eldar Splinter Rifles from PtU.

Unless you employ the Horde rules to fix this, all those Eldar and Guardsmen will simply fire away without even a remote chance to make a single wound. Now, with Horde rules, waves of about 20 Eldar and more will at least have a chance to wound a whopping two Marines per round of combat (1-6 wounds if the Eldar are lucky).

Curiously, Horde rules also mean that for some reason all those Eldar which are usually known for their agility will no longer be able to dodge or evade attacks and thus should perish rather quickly, given that they aren't very resilient and Horde rules also mean one-shot-kills. Actually it's even better than that: With Horde rules Eldar are easier to hit (+20, if you use a group of 20-29) and you kill two Eldar with a single bolt round, thanks to it being explosive. Boom!

As I pointed out, in most Deathwatch games this will not be perceived to be an actual issue (unless you have a problem with Eldar employing wave tactics), as it works fine within the confined scope of that one game and makes for very epic combat situations - but you can hardly argue the fact that it is not an accurate depiction of a lasgun's/splinter rifle's actual effectiveness or a Marine's vulnerability.

If Unnatural Toughness would not be broken, mechanics such as Horde or Felling would not exist. Workarounds get made to work around something. And the gap between natural and unnatural stats is simply too big.

Lynata said:

To be fair, that isn't really an accurate representation of how hordes work - for something as elite as a Dark Eldar, I'd guess you'd be looking at 4-5 magnitude per Eldar. Tau Fire Warriors might end up being 2-3 magnitude per shas'la, Imperial Guard perhaps 1-2 mag per grunt, and Heretic Cultist hordes could be multiple heretics per single magnitude. It is up to the GM to find the right balance to properly represent the hardiness of what amounts to enemy teams working in concert.

To be even more fair, one shouldn't have to resort to f***ed up rules like Hordes to represent elite threats like Dark Eldar, who should be able to represent a significant threat even as a single individual, at least to anything less than a Primarch. *sigh*

Blood Pact said:

Well, I wouldn't call it accurately represents but otherwise I think you're right. The point of the horde mechanics is to dumb down and so the effect of a hail of fire has been abstracted into additional damage. It's not a simulationist mechanic but works well enough.

Alex

Not sure if I'm correct about this, but I kind of thought that the horde rules were meant to be used when space marine players are up against large numbers of not particularly potent adversaries. Like a bunch of crazed, but very human, squishy - and vulnerable to large calibre firearms - cultists. Or maybe a mob of genestealer hybrids. Basically they are rules for crowd control. I wouldn't rate Eldar as the kind of adversaries that the horde rule is for, being that they are intelligent, well equipped enemies that are hardly going to try and overwhelm their enemies with weight of numbers. As for lasguns being no threat to Space Marines; well that's not entirely true. One could always roll a 10 for damage, and then another, and another. Theyr're are just a very minor threat. Then again though, power armour is sort of meant to make you (nearly) immune to minor threats like that.

Problem I have with lasguns (and other low strength weapons) is that they are ineffectual at killing anything (even unarmoured squishy humans) without multiple hits or lucky shots (rolling those 10s again) with the rules as written. But there you go.