ItsUncertainWho said:

Well, they are a very specialized group, much like Deathwatch or the Grey Knights. They're not meant to be thrown into any battle - that is the purpose of the PDF and the Imperial Guard. If more elite forces are required you send in Stormtroopers or (as the final solution) call the Space Marines. Sisters Militant are only called into action when sacred relics or important Ministorum officials are threatened, some Cardinal calls for a Crusade or an Inquisitor requests their assistance for a single mission. If these things do not happen they keep going on with their daily schedule of playing bodyguards, protecting pilgrim routes or important shrines, testing people for genetic mutation and policing the Ecclesiarchy.

Their influence does not come from being omnipresent (iirc the Calixian Sector Ecclesiarchy's main headquarters are guarded by a single squad of Battle Sisters), but from being able to pop up anywhere they are needed, and from having the support of the entire Adeptus Ministorum - including Frateris Militias and the local clergy - and, by extension, of the Imperial Guard/Navy and the Adeptus Arbites. In fact, they often team up with the latter for the aforementioned purity control tests. When it comes to purely political influence, however, it is likely true that the Orders Famulous are able to pull a lot more strings than the Orders Militant.

It should be noted that the 30k does not include the Battle Sisters of any of the smaller Ordos Minoris, though the total number should not be massively dissimilar.

When it comes to active mission strength, the Deathwatch core rulebook contains a list of Sororitas units attached to the Achilus Crusade. If I recall correctly it was about 2.000 Battle Sisters compared to 1.600 Marines.

just in order to add to the "equipment of same quality" debate and because i like pseudo-science:

http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_9_Marine_1_Morphology.shtml

what you can take from the discussion in the link is: space marine morphology allows you to slap even thicker plates of power armour onto the marine. to retain the same degree of flexibility a sister's armour with the unaltered physiology of its wearer would inevitably be less thick at the same locations.

but one can't argue about the sister's having the best armour-plated high-heels/bootee. just how exactly are you going to fight in these? Apart from eye-piercing round-house kicks?

neverthless, i would like to make the point, that of course one might have a gripe with the rules-background transition, yet one must not forget how amendable and ambigious the fluff is and ever has been.

i for one can live with this dichotomy.

Lynata said:

30,000, if accurate, has to be GW magic math. GW Magic Math = random numbers that sound big but aren't, by any stretch of the imagination.

By those numbers, fully 15% of the combat capability of the sisters is occupied on one crusade. The sisters run the Black ships, defend important shrines, act as body guards, work part time for the =][=, go on other crusades, etc. 30 million I could see, 30,000 would be a local curiosity scattered about a subsector.

Ilias Bethomael said:

A Marine's suit does not only consist of armour plates. In fact, actual armour makes up the smallest part of it. As you can see here, most of the suit is actually made up of the many subsystems that render a Marine so versatile and allow him to perform at optimal capacity in almost any kind of environment. From waste recyclers that allow him to sustain himself for weeks to biomonitors and drug injectors to enhanced life support and blood cleansers. Not to mention the larger machinery required to move this behemoth of a suit and further enhance the wearer's strength. All these features are missing from the "bare bones" Sororitas variant, which naturally enables the suit to be smaller and lighter - whilst the actual armour plates are just as thick.

For myself, I have "explained away" the AP differences of both types of armour in DH/DW with the fact that all the subsystems and additional gadgets between the plating and the Marine inside the armour have a certain stopping power as well, as they essentially form an additional layer of "improvised protection".

Even in the article you have linked (and which I've read some years ago - I thought it was quite spot on concerning the body shape of Marine characters!) you can see that the armour is very thin at places. Just look at the bracers, for example.

Ilias Bethomael said:

You don't. Sisters never had high heels. Well, except in a few very early artworks. I think very much like you on this particular subject and am glad this kind of boot never made it to the actual miniatures / comics / novels!

The Callidus and some female Inquisitors still have heels, but I suppose those can be forgiven.

Ilias Bethomael said:

That's my point. The fluff has never been ambiguous about this aspect. It only gets turned around because a lot of people seem to like what DH/DW changed.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Can't agree on this assessment on several points. First of all, the Sisters do not so much "run" the Black ships, they are one of the two organizations providing guards, with Inquisitorial Stormtroopers likely being the more numerous body here. The fact that the most important religious building of the entire Calixis Sector is guarded by a single squad also adds to the theory that there can't be so many religious sites in the galaxy considered important enough to warrant Sororitas protection that it takes millions of Battle Sisters to guard them. Also, I do not think that there's a dozen Crusades going on every day all over the Imperium, but see it as more likely that the Sisters - just like the Marines - travel from one to another as one ends and the next one is announced, perhaps with a few Crusades running simultaneously, in which case resources are allocated as needed. And lastly, the Orders Minoris are far smaller in scope and more focused on a singular task than the six big ones, so I'd say that especially things like guarding a shrine are tasks that are mostly taken over by smaller, local groups of Sisters that usually lack heavier equipment.

In any case, I put my trust in the official sources. The numbers may seem low, but they are not unrealistic. They just mean that not every little colony world has its own contingent of Battle Sisters - which is quite fitting considering their level of training and equipment. Else we may just as well start wondering why there are no Imperial Guard, Arbites or even PDF Regiments in full power armour if the Imperium keeps churning it out in the millions.

Sister Armour is AP 7/8 correct? Astartes is 8/10 right? So we are talking a big difference of 1AP on average or so. We can assume all Astartes armour is already considered "best quality" for the AP bonus I would say. But maybe we dont say that about all Sister armour. Which puts Sister armour at what? 8/9 when best quality?

To me that would qualify as "same degree of protection".

In the TT (you know, the source game for everything. The stats and rules that the fluff comes from and works from and works around and vice versa) Astartes has a S, T, I and WS 1 point better then a sister. So if we decide that each level in TT is exponetial (twice as good as the point before it, half as good as the point after it) we can accept that space marines are twice as strong and tough as a sister explainng away the unnatural stats, the implants and the starting 30+2D10. Add in the fact that Deathwatch marines are "veterans" whicn in TT have 2 Attacks to the Sisters 1 Attack.

So even in TT the "DW" marines are strike faster, strike harder, strike more often and strike more accurately and are harder to hurt.

So "DW" as a "Veteran" Space marine hits on a 3+, goes first, goes twice. Sister goes second, hits on a 4+, wounds on a 5+. The 3+ save is in effect for both. The Deathwatch marines and Dark Heresy sisters follow this general rule.

But in TT they have the same BS and the same Bolter stats (24" range, S4, AP 5, Rapid Fire). This is where DW/DH breaks down.

I would accept the SM bolter being better, stronger, doing more damage and what not, but not to the degree the game has it at. Also, with the addition of bolter mastery, certain squad and solo modes and other talents, traits and cheese, the Astartes bolt gun becomes ridiculous.

Just following the standard rules from the core book of DH (where the games should all have started from when they were designed), the best quality to the bolter of a space marine would be +1 Damage and +10 BS.

I accept the argument that each space marine homeworld strives to stay independent from the rest of the Imperium and therefore manufactures all its own gear. But then I would assume each chapter would have different weapon stats. Not 1000 chapters making the same weapon.

But anyway, that is where I weigh in at on this debate. Armour, no issue, stats, no real issues, bolters WTF?

Peacekeeper_b said:

Sounds a bit flawed, though, when this comparison only works if you give one suit of armour a quality level that the other does not have. The description was for the standard equipment and thus only works if every Battle Sister already starts with a best quality suit. Furthermore, we'd have the odd discrepancy that the rules of this game stat one item with "common" quality, but on the other it's supposed to be "best".

But I already found an explanation I can live with, so I pretty much cooled down on this discrepancy. To be honest, it actually feels more realistic this way, given the differences in thickness, if we go by the majority of images.

As for the boltguns, I'm pretty much convinced that this is a problem caused by the different scaling between the two games' narrative style ("gritty" vs "legendary") and, as I mentioned before, the issue of flat stat multiplicators basically raising the bar. For now I'm only trying to point out why it makes no sense to claim that these differences are an accurate representation of the fluff. It doesn't even work if you only look at this game alone.

Lynata said:

The Imperium is terrified of its own power. The might it could bring to bear is continually hampered by fear of the consequences of its misuse. The Chapters of the Astartes, the division of Guard and Navy, the division of Church and State and the Decree Passive, the requirement for a majority vote of the Senatorium Imperialis before an Officio Assassin is deployed... each represents a situation where the events of the past have resulted in reactionary and overzealous measures to prevent similar ever occuring, while simultaneously hampering the ability of the Imperium to defend itself or exert the power it possesses.

You may not see why, but this barrier of law, dogma and tradition is established - Rites of Battle for Deathwatch specifically notes, in the section dealing with cross-overs between games, that even Inquisitors and Rogue Traders can't get access to Astartes wargear without the direct support and intervention of one of the Astartes - such equipment is only issued to Space Marines.

Lynata said:

Given how the Astartes and the Mechanicus chose to remain largely independent of the rest of the Imperium during that period, I don't see how he would have had access.

Access is key. The Astartes are notorious for guarding their secrecy, independence and traditions fiercely, as are the Mechanicus. The fact that they largely ignored him for so long is a significant part of why he remained in power for as long as he did.

Lynata said:

Bolt ammunition still needs to be propelled from the weapon at velocities capable of causing lethal injuries; too low an initial velocity and you render the prefire charge irrelevant and the weapon incapable of functioning effectively in close quarters.

The Angelus is perfectly capable of firing Astartes-grade ammunition... because it was designed to. It's an illegal design, yes, but it's one designed and built for a specific purpose - using Astartes bolt shells when other weapons usable by mortals cannot.

Lynata said:

The game moved to a new company about a month after the first rulebook was released. I think it's safe to say that many of the original writers no longer have anything to do with the game's production. I'd like to see you try and plan ahead in that situation.

Beyond that, the notion of the distinction between Astartes and mortal weaponry was decided upon by summer 2006 at the latest, and probably earlier - certainly, that's the soonest I encountered it as a playtester, and it was mentioned to the general public in a seminar at GenCon UK that same year. This was while the game was still being developed by Black Industries, who were a division of Games Workshop. The concept appeared in a total of two books - Purge the Unclean, due to the presence of Brother-Sergeant Agamorr, and The Inquisitor's Handbook, which elaborated a little more on the issue. Black Industries announced their closure four days after the successful release of the Dark Heresy rulebook; the last book developed by BI was Disciples of the Dark Gods, which was finished and published by FFG. The matter was not raised again in published material until last year , when Deathwatch was released - Space Marines hadn't appeared anywhere else in DH or RT, and thus the matter wasn't relevant. Even going only from release date to release date (ignoring time prior to release when the matter is in development), that's a little over three and a half years for the idea to develop.

Not months, but years.

Lynata said:

Personally, I don't consider the latter source to be worth the paper it's printed on. Half of it - such as the reference you mention - was simply copy-and-pasted from other books, the other half seemed obsessively focussed upon the Inquisition-related characters of Dan Abnett to the exclusion of all else, to the point where minor characters from Eisenhorn and Ravenor had more attention devoted to them than the likes of important, notable and influential Inquisitors like Czevak and Kryptmann, who've been referenced in the background for decades.

Frankly, I don't regard it as a worthwhile source in the first place, as all it actually does is gather material from elsewhere.

Lynata said:

You can explain it that way if you want, but I honestly don't see those systems taking up so great a proportion of the available internal space - you make it sound as if it's a layer of tin-foil wrapped around a life support system.

Lynata said:

Including GW, demonstrated by their continued permission to make this distinction. Disagree with the idea if you want, but GW have approved it, which makes it official.

Lynata said:

No, you put your trust in official sources you like, and decry as incorrect any that disagree with your position... as demonstrated here. Everyone does it, and I'm certainly not above showing preference for some sources over others. But don't kid yourself into thinking that you're adhering slavishly and perfectly to the background...

Fenrisnorth said:

Actually, soft point ammo is used as hunting ammo; not military-grade ammo. As it cause massive trauma, it is designed to kill an animal with the massive shock the impact causes, making it for a quick kill, while FMJ round would simply go throught, have the deer or moose run off for miles and slowly, and painfully, bleed to death. And that's not a sporting way to hunt. Not to mention the chance of the FMJ bullet simply continuing it's course behond your target, and not knowing what's beyond what you're shooting is not a responsible way to handle a firearm.

Sure some animals still are alive with soft point ammo: but they generally do on average a mile or less before setting down and dying instead of pissing blood all over the forest.

Lyn: wrote that Astartes botlguns did 2d10+5: that was just some example, as I wrote that without checking my book first.

As for the rest of the thread: I still stick with the fact that it's a question fo scale, grimdark and 'realist' (DH) or Epic and over-the-top (DW),

Like if aliens or some super villain showed up at our door tomorrow: DH would be a bunch of Kick-Ass 2 bit regular joes trying to stop it (and get pummelded) while DW would be sending in the Justice League with Superman leading the way (getting a few scratches here and there, always looks good for the news)

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I am not talking about Astartes wargear, I am talking about Astartes-level wargear. There is a difference. Why exactly should the boltgun be different from the Rhino, the Landraider, the Thunderhawk?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

By the same means by which Acolytes in DH are able to get their hands on an Angelus carbine plus Astartes-level ammunition?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Which should have zero effect on the weapon's long range performance.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

So obviously it is not impossible for "mortals" to use Astartes-level guns with Astartes-level ammunition. Fine that we can at least agree on this.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Fine, I am still of the opinion that there is a difference between 20 and 2 years.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well, what can I say - other than the picture being fairly obvious?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Personally, I think they were unaware that the authors would expand the idea of civilian boltguns to military organizations. You still have a point with that statement, though. Let's see what future fluff brings us. As it stands, DH/DW was either the start of a big retcon or they simply made a mistake that won't show up anywhere else.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

So far I am not aware of anyone having cited an official source outside this RPG for a difference in damage between Astartes and non-Astartes military boltguns. Can you point it out for me?

I have provided quotes from the Munitorum Manual, have pointed out that the Mars-beta Pattern Boltgun has been issued to both the Marines as well as the Sororitas, and have mentioned books and comics where normal people used Marine bolt weapons. I have not seen anyone else quote anything outside this RPG (whose discrepancies are the actual topic). Only personal opinions. It is very well possible that I have missed something, but if so I'd appreciate if you could show it to me.

All I see right now is people dancing around the facts, jumping from thesis to thesis just to defend this ridiculous gap in weapon power. First it was all about strength and normal people supposedly not being able to carry an Astartes-grade boltgun, which was debunked by DH characters walking around with heavy bolters which have twice the weight. Then it was about people not having the strength to deal with the recoil , which was debunked by mentioning the Angelus, which fires the very same ammunition as a Marine bolter. And now we're talking about the idea that there's simply some kind of law stating nobody outside the Astartes may own a gun capable of Marine-level destruction? Some sort of "maximum bolt payload regulation"? Really?

That people did not argue with where we are now earlier alone makes it look very much as if this is all about grasping at straws. Instead of looking for and providing facts it is all about theorizing why it simply cannot be, based solely on personal interpretation and preference which then gets presented as "truth". Until it gets debunked again. At which point somebody comes up with yet another theory. I'm sort of grasping at straws as well, but at least my straws are official. Frankly, this is no way to lead a debate.

Not saying what it's used for, just that it's funny that in America it is ONLY legal to buy bullets FORBIDDEN in other countries because they hurt people too badly.

Lynata said:

A: What is this munitorum manual, I want one!

B: Where's the info on the Mars pattern? I see the MK II in the IH, and that's only mention as a Sister weapon. I thought Astartes used Godwyns.

TBH not knowing some of the fluff is more upsetting to me than how mush LEET DEEPS the Marines do...

Fenrisnorth said:

BOOM!

It's a fun read, not as good as the Primer, but still fun :-)

Edit: and the bullets not forbidden in other countries are fuzzy happy bullets chock full of rainbows and good will I suppose? ;-p

"A: What is this munitorum manual, I want one!"

Here you go: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Imperial-Munitorum-Manual-The.html

Of course, by now I was beaten by Graver.

I can only recommend it! If you happen to know what the Uplifting Primer is, this little book is very similar. Instead of dealing with Imperial Guard field tactics and regulations, however, it focuses on the inner workings of the Departmento Munitorum, its history, its organizational structure, how to requisition and maintain weapons. It also explains many weapon types (including the boltgun) and equipment.

"B: Where's the info on the Mars pattern? I see the MK II in the IH, and that's only mention as a Sister weapon. I thought Astartes used Godwyns."

The Mars pattern is a bit older, I think that was 2nd Edition fluff. There was a longer article in a White Dwarf issue, give me a few minutes to dig it up ...

The Astartes use a lot of different boltgun patterns, I think. Off the top of my head I also remember the Ultimo and the Nostra patterns. It very likely depends on the specific Chapter, though the Godwyn is currently considered standard (afaik). Just like the Godwyn-De'az is standard for the Sisters, but they still have other models such as the Scourge pattern.

"TBH not knowing some of the fluff is more upsetting to me than how mush LEET DEEPS the Marines do..."

Not knowing isn't much of a problem, as long as one is willing to learn! We all focus on those aspects of the fluff we find most interesting (in my case it was Marines some years ago, now it's Sisters and Imperial Guard) - so it's only natural that we're bound to miss something that was mentioned somewhere else.

PS: This forum's formatting is really bad and whoever programmed it should feel bad!

PPS: Found it:

"[...] The Mars-alpha is the boltgun pattern that has been in use for several thousand years, noted for its reliability, rugged construction and very low chance of jamming. Only recently has the Mechanicus perfected a suitable replacement, the Mars-gamma (the Mars-beta being a complete failure in terms of reliability, and flatly rejected by the Astartes Chapters to whom it was issued on a trial basis). The Mars-gamma is slowly being issued to the Sisterhood, though predictably the Mechanicus is dragging its heels. As the Sisterhood does not yet have the ability to manufacture Mars-gamma bolters, the Mars-alpha boltgun remains its standard squad weapon. [...]"

Alright, so the Marines did not end up using the Mars-beta because it was judged too unreliable - but that it was issued at all counts for something, imho. Also, the Mars-alpha was actually in use by the Astartes, but discontinued in M32. (source: Index Astartes: Death Guard)

The Angelus keeps getting brought up, but it seems as though the facts of the weapon are being missed.

It weighs 11kg, the heaviest of all the bolt weapons except the Heavy Bolter.

It has a clip of 3, that are fitted tip to tail in the stock of the weapon. and it's single fire only.

This is a BIG rifle. It would be slightly lighter than a Barrett M82 but with only 3 shots, in an awkward to load magazine.

The Angelus Bolt Carbine is going to be all about recoil compensation to retain the Accurate trait while firing the Blind Astartes rounds.

In comparison the mortal boltguns listed in the IHB are between 7-10kg with 24 rounds. The 10kg bolter has the reliable trait.

I don't think the recoil of the round is a problem due to how the weapon would have to be constructed. Whereas Astartes weapons need no dampening, as their armor takes care of that issue.

Equipment patterns can, and should be widely varied. Even if the item is the same pattern. For example, you might have a Corvette-C6 pattern ground conveyance. Well you have a fine conveyance, but do you have the C6, C6.R, Z06, Z06-R, or the ZR1 sub pattern? They are all fine machines, but vastly different in capabilities and yet they are all Corvette-C6 patterns.

As far as mortals with Astartes grade weapons, there is always the Exitus rifle that the Vindicare Temple uses. It's the best rifle the Imperium of man has access to and is only in the hands of the Vindicare temple.

As far as sources, the only viable source that matters is the RPG. The TT books are not applicable as what is needed for a TT game and an RPG are vastly different.The novels and articles are all so completely random in how things work and general power levels that from one author to another, sometimes even the same author, things change on a whim. The novels and fluff are great for referencing and as a general baseline, but they are inconsistent at best.

40K, as a whole, relies on the reader/consumer/fan to make up large chunks of information to fill in all the gaping logic holes. Otherwise the universe makes no sense at all.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I think what is missed more is that Sisters in power armour run around firing heavy bolters unbraced without any problem whatsoever. Anyone using a caliber 1.0 heavy bolter weighing 40kg on full auto should be able to fire an Astartes-level boltgun weighing half as much and using a smaller caliber with four-round bursts without problem, too. But that's just my take on common sense, even independent from the fluff I quoted.

ItsUncertainWho said:

In that case there's nothing more to discuss, of course. My whole point was that the RPG does, in this particular case, a poor job at depicting the fluff. If we simply dismiss everything else there is nothing to talk about, except maybe the possible reason behind making the DW bolters more powerful than they were in DH, or question the logic behind some of the rules that seem to be intent solely to troll non-Astartes who want to "play with the big boys", regardless of how realistic (or rather unrealistic) they seem.

And I apologize for the lengthy rant on the previous page. I rolled a Righteous Fury and snapped. I've come to the understanding that my individual perception of the setting just seems to be different from that of some other posters and there does not seem any path to understanding. We should probably simply agree to disagree.

Lynata said:

Rhinos have never been limited only to the Astartes; their comparative rarity now is an increasing issue, but the Rhino itself was in the early days of the Imperium one of the most common and easily-manufactured of vehicles; knowledge lost has limited its availability.

The Land Raider actually is limited to Astartes use, by the Emperor's decree (this was detailed in an Index Astartes article in White Dwarf, the month after the current Land Raider kit was released... I can't remember the issue number, as it was a few years ago) during the Horus Heresy - many Forge Worlds capable of manufacturing the vehicle fell to Horus' forces, leading to shortages and the decision to limit use of the Land Raider to the Astartes, a decision which has never since been overturned.

In both cases, previous widespread use was background-influenced-by-production: the Rhino was once described as the single most commonly-used vehicle in the Imperium, and the Land Raider was employed even by Eldar Harlequins... in both cases, because so few other vehicle models were available, and so few vehicles had been thought of, that making the only two available useful for everyone was the only fair thing to do. For me, that era is long dead, along with Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Clousseau, half-Eldar Astropaths serving the Ultramarines and the heap of other ideas that never made it alive out of Rogue Trader.

The Thunderhawk... I don't actually recall seeing a Thunderhawk in the hands of anyone but the Astartes, so I don't know where you're coming from here.

Lynata said:

Individuals obtaining black market weaponry is not the same as equipping an army, and that should be obvious. The difference in scale changes the situation considerably.

Lynata said:

Up until the heavier propellant charge needed for the Astartes shells screws up the barrel, sure.

Lynata said:

Again, in an extremely rare and valuable weapon specifically designed to employ those exceptionally rare shells, built to accomodate the difficulties, no, it's not impossible.

But 99.99999% of weapons built to employ Astartes ammunition are too large, heavy and bulky for humans to wield.

Frankly, you're demonstrating a startling amount of ignorance regarding the background that's actually in the RPGs; if you actually looked at The Inquisitor's Handbook, you'd see what I'm talking about.

Lynata said:

There is, but no change to the background takes twenty years to make. The time between the introduction of the Eldar and the introduction of Aspect Warriors and Craftworld forces was about two years, for example. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that, in any given situation, the change itself happens fairly quickly - the situation is one way at one time, the change is made, and it is another way after that.

Lynata said:

I make no assumption that background published in Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader (and its attendant supplements and magazine articles) is accurate, relevant or valid. It's almost as old as I am, was written at a time when most of what I regard as 40k (having started playing 40k in the 90s during the early years of 2nd edition) had not yet been developed, and where many of the setting's themes and its tone were still only in their most basic forms.

Lynata said:

Thing is, "bolter quality" is a tiny issue when it comes to the wargame. Utterly insignificant. When you consider that every unaugmented human in the wargame, and many augmented ones, plus common Orks, Eldar and Tau, are Strength 3, it seems to depict a really broad range of capabilities.

From the perspective of the wargame, all power armour gives a 3+ save, all humans are strength 3 and all Space Marines are strength 4. No room for variation except in extreme cases, and each value is as broad as it is abstract. The matter is irrelevant outside of the RPG, essentially - it may occur in Black Library novels, but each of those is the interpretation of a specific author, and consequently all bets are off at that point.

To the matter of "civilian" boltguns... yet again, focussing on that particular term, without any consideration of the actual background in DH and DW.

Lynata said:

My point exactly. You don't regard the RPG background as being worthwhile, and thus you ignore it.

Just because you don't like the source does not mean it isn't a source.

Beyond that, the novel Nemesis , where the Eversor Assassin's bolt pistol is remarked upon as being of lower power than the bolt weapons of the Astartes he's facing, and the novel Purging of Kadillus , where a Piscina PDF trooper is temporarily loaned one of the Dark Angels' bolt pistols due to the destruction of his rifle... the pistol could only be wielded in two hands, such was the gun's weight and recoil, but he managed to slay several Orks with the few shells it contained, even without being fully capable of using it.

Lynata said:

Again, you're "refuting" these ideas by being both ignorant and dismissive of the background in the RPGs.

Inquisitor's Handbook, page 109 - "Production of the Astartes bolts is carefully monitored, and once made, each case is stamped with the aquila and its maker's mark before being passed on to the Adepts of the Machine God. Despite the security and precautions inherent in this sacred duty, it is said that a few of these shells never see the aquila stamp. These so-called "blind shells" are both utterly illegal and highly desirable, but on their own, blind shells are useless without a weapon to fire them." - source presenting the illegality of Astartes bolter shells, and the fact that they can't be used in the bolters available to normal humans.

Inquisitor's Handbook, page 109 - "Consequently, the Fane of Fykos makes in secret a weapon known as the "Angelus". Bluntly elegant in shape and crafted from the finest materials, the Angelus' lacquered stock houses its magazine and unlocks to take three Astartes calibre bolt shells snugly nose to tail. Provided only to their richest and most trustworthy of clients, the exclusivity and terrible killing power of the Angelus is favoured by the wealthiest of bounty hunters and the most accompished of beast-slayers in the Calixis Sector. Carrying one of these powerful, but highly illegal weapons entails certain risks all of its own." - source detailing rarity and quality of the Angelus bolt carbine, as well as its limited magazine.

Inquisitor's Handbook, page 173 (inside the "War Zones" chapter, which deals with the weapons employed by military organisations), sidebar 'Weapons of the Astartes' - "The mighty Adeptus Astartes are superhuman in every way, and so too are their weapons. Each is oversized, specifically designed for their great strength and enlarged physiques. This is especially true of bolter weapons such as boltguns and bolt pistols. Massive and reinforced like their users, even the ammunition clips are sheathed in protective wards and armour, with hand grips larger than any human hand can manage and a weight that would require most humans to use a support bracing. Indeed, a human trying to fire such a weapon would likely suffer recoil of such strength that it would rip their arm from its socket. Space Marine boltguns are simply something not seen outside of their sacred ranks. 'Mortal' bolters are a rank apart and are so designed that mere humans can wield them. Designed with smaller grips and lighter construction, these bolters do not have the same capacity for slaughter as the Astartes versions, yet can easily cut a man in two."

Hey, look... no reference to "civilian bolters", only the "mortal/Astartes" distinction I favour. Physical strength has been covered, as has the dangers of recoil, and the illegality of the ammunition.

Lynata said:

Technically, bracing doesn't have to require anything more than planting your feet and steadying yourself, as noted in all three rulebooks. Carrying and firing a Heavy Bolter without a bipod or tripod does not necessarily indicate use "unbraced". Oh, and a minor point covered in the DW book... Astartes weapons in the hands of mortals count their class as one step bigger due to size, bulk, recoil, etc - so that Astartes Bolter counts as a heavy weapon (with a particularly recalcitrant machine spirit) in the hands of anyone else. Doesn't matter if you can wield heavy weapons on the move... the Astartes Bolter is still too big to be easily-wielded by non-Astartes.

Friend of the Dork said:

Lynata said:

The only consistancy in DH/DW, which is a different game than WH40k tabletop, is that SM weapons are better. Even the Sgt. Bolt Pistol had the same damage is as "normal" Heavy Bolter. Yes 2d10 is better than 1d10+5, especially when Fury and Tearing come into play. The DW bolters are just insane though and not even balanced compared to other DW weapons like the Astartes Chainsword.

Friend of the Dork said:

Lynata said:

What article? Must have missed that in your post. Lexicanum might be unofficial, but still more accurate than your guess based on the "sounding" of a name. In any case Kraken rounds (DW version) does work very well against Tyranid Warriors, although not quite as wonderful as Hellfire rounds.

Could you please stop citing "recoil" as a reason why normal people can't use Astartes Bolt Weapons?

Seriously. Weight is a good reason. Availability is another good reason. Size if a very good reason.

Recoil is not. Bolt weapons are described to be essentially rocket-launchers, meaning that the bolts are not launched by single explosive propulsion (like modern guns and cannons) but a slowing burning fule-propulsion (like modern rockets and missiles). This means that any recoil they have is much, much less than comparable auto-gun would have. Moreover, the heavier a gun is, the less recoil affects it, because the recoil energy actually has more mass to move in the gun.

[/rant] you can go on now

Polaria said:

Two issues with that.

Firstly, such a mechanism would render Bolt weapons essentially useless at close range - their initial velocity would be too low to actually do anything. Given the preferred engagement range of the Astartes, this would be a crippling flaw. It's a known issue in gyrojet weapons, which operate on essentially that principle.

Secondly, Imperial Armour volume 2 specifically addresses this - Bolt weapons employ a conventional propellant charge to accelerate the shell to a high initial velocity and eject it from the weapon, with the rocket igniting a split second after the shell has left the barrel. This is both to resolve the above-mentioned issue, and to reduce the amount of pressure the inside of the weapon is subjected to during firing and thus reduce the potential for damaging wear-and-tear.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

"Final Liberation" (where it was used by the Imperial Navy to transport Guard HQ staff). According to Lexicanum it is also used by Inquisitors, and though I cannot recall any sources I deem it fitting and remember having seen that somewhere.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You're right. It should be way easier for Vandire - who kinda had the entire Imperium under his command - to get his hands on 10.000 specimens of a weapon locally produced in some illegal Calixian workshop. Given those tens of thousands of Imperial Manufactoriums capable of and willing to produce it.
N0-1_H3r3 said:

Sounds like an appropriate drawback for the lighter construction and actually fits to what is mentioned in the Munitorum Manual regarding regular maintenance.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

No, they are not. Not even in the scope of this RPGs own rules.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You seem to have completely missed what I am talking about. My point is that DH/DW is violating the existing fluff for bolt weapons. I am fully aware of what the books of this RPG say, which is the entire reason why I am ranting about it.
N0-1_H3r3 said:

Of course not. It doesn't fit in your argument. I for one am usually operating under the rule that anything official remains valid until actually contradicted by a newer source, though.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

If we were to copy DH stats into the TT, all non-Astartes boltguns would have the stats of a lasgun, though. Simply by having almost the exact same damage. Surely you see that? Doesn't that seem somewhat wrong to you?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Didn't you say that was approved by GW?
N0-1_H3r3 said:

I ignore nothing. You seem to have read only half my posts, though.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Sounds okay to me. For the first example we know that there are several different patterns - even in DH, a Ceres-pattern bolt pistol has less power than a Sacristan, and both are wielded by mere humans, the latter only requires more strength. For the second example I am not surprised that a PDF trooper without power armour has trouble wielding a gun that has a weight of about 20 kilograms. This, however, need not apply to owners of power armour and furthermore says nothing about the weapon's actual power (I have already noted why Astartes weapons would be heavier without a difference in actual damage). That he was actually capable of hitting someone with it is even more remarkable and only goes to show that the -30 modifier from DW that exists "just because" is rather ridiculous.

Thanks for mentioning these books, though. At least that is finally something official to talk about.

By the way, didn't Eisenhorn receive an Astartes bolt pistol as well, as a gift?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And why is that so? Apart from the rules as written - apologies, but I am just having trouble to see how a weapon that is smaller and lighter than a heavy bolter is supposed to be harder to carry. I know one shouldn't apply common sense to everything in an RPG, but suspension of disbelief can only go so far, seeing as the laws of physics should apply even in 40k. Also, have we not already established that normal people are perfectly able to wield guns shooting Astartes-rounds? I thought we were discussing Imperial Law now.

Friend of the Dork said:

"Chapter Approved - Deathwatch Kill Team"

Friend of the Dork said:

I dunno. I could create a Lexicanum account right now and edit the article - would that really make it more accurate? But still you're right, it is only a guess, and even though the Kill Team rules strongly hint at it there is (as far as I know) nothing official that specifically mentions Kraken rounds are meant to be used against 'nids. I just thought I'd point out the likely origin of the name.

Polaria said:

Well, technically, bolt weapons are hybrids - they do fire their rounds like a normal gun (hence the shells and ejection port) and the rocket motor activates a split-second after the bolt leaving the barrel. This negates the close quarter penetration deficiency that full gyrojet weapons would suffer from.

Still, you are very correct in pointing out that heavier guns compensate better for the recoil their ammunition generates.

I deem it a flaw that DH/DW make a difference between normal people and Marines based solely on a character's title, creating a gap that cannot ever be bridged regardless of how strong you actually get. *shrugs*

Lynata said:

ask for the elite advance "astartes training & conditioning" pre-requisites: being selected at early age, being male

or become a primaris-psyker and dominate an astartes (or a whole squad)

Lynata said:

Oh, so old Epic background, dating back to the time when Imperial Guard armies had Land Raiders (since retconned) and everyone in the Imperium (and beyond) used everything available to everyone else... back when Orks had bolters and Eldar Guardians used Lasguns, when the Imperial Guard employed Beastmen...

Old background frequently causes issues when people attempt to jam it wholesale into the setting as it exists today. The obsession with everything being canon unless otherwise noted exacerbates those issues.

Lynata said:

Fykos Forge in Gunmetal City on Scintilla isn't "some illegal Calixian workshop" - it's one of the major manufacturing concerns within the city, and thus a major producer of weapons sector-wide, renowned for producing extremely high-power and high-quality firearms favoured by those who are bored, bloodthirsty and extremely wealthy.

Oh, and it didn't exist during the Age of Apostasy, as the Calixis Sector hadn't been founded.

All that aside, something existing and something existing in large enough quantities to equip and army are two completely different things. Angelus bolt carbines utilise ammunition which has to be stolen off the production lines in small quantities before the Mechanicus (one of the few organisations that Vandire couldn't so easily strong-arm) take them away.

If there are only a limited number of something, then no matter how much authority you have or how many laws you ignore, it is physically impossible to own more than actually exist.

Lynata said:

"Regular maintenance" understates it by a large margin, IMO. Replacing the barrel and firing mechanism regularly is closer, as far as I'm concerned.

Lynata said:

Really? Because your comments haven't demonstrated anything like you being "fully aware" of what the RPG books say; indeed, the situation seems far more to be that you've glanced over them a couple of times and are ranting against your perception of what they say. For example, the three passages I quoted from the Inquisitor's Handbook do not mention once the notion of "civilian" bolters, but rather use the term "mortal". Your continued attempts to use the Angelus bolt carbine as "proof" that you're right has frequently demonstrated that you don't actually know what it is...

This is no less an example of selective and preferential choice of the background than I'm doing; the only real difference is that you're hung up on the notion that the background can be "violated".

Lynata said:

Except for the newer sources (the RPG books) that contradict your preferred view of the 40k universe.

Lynata said:

Direct translation of numerical values between RPGs and Wargames is futile, if not impossible. I do not consider any attempts to do so to be valid arguments, as I have stated on plenty of occasions in many discussions.

Lynata said:

Having looked through the pertinent source material and not found the reference, I'm not entirely sure that the "civilian bolter" terminology actually is in the books - at which point, it's just a fabrication wielded in arguments by people who don't like it.

Lynata said:

He did, but by any stretch of the imagination, the pistol is a joke - the magazine was apparently contained entirely within the handgrip... which wouldn't be feasible with any Bolt Pistol, given the size of the shells.

Lynata said:

It isn't harder to carry; it's as difficult to carry, weight differences notwithstanding. It's nothing to do with the Astartes Bolter being lighter than a Heavy Bolter, but to do with it being significantly heavier than other Basic weapons (thus classing it as a Heavy weapon). The additional penalty applied to non-Astartes users is a combination of other factors - such as Astartes-scaled controls, armour interface systems (Imperial Armour 4 covers this - data ports in the grip interface with the armour to transfer data to autosenses and ID the wielder), and differing design tolerances (while not an example relevant to the Bolter, an Astartes "Ragefire pattern" plasma gun has less need for heat shielding due to the thermal resistance of a Space Marine and his armour... which would hinder attempts by a human wielder to operate it due to physical discomfort)... in short, a variety of things that can be collectively categorised as "recalcitrant Machine Spirits".

Lynata said:

Oh, I see... as soon as you've dismissed an official source, it's no longer relevant to the discussion? Because that's how it seems from where I'm sitting.

So, there's no difference between different weapons? If a human can wield one, specially-designed weapon built to fire Astartes shells, then he can wield any weapon that fires Astartes shells?

I don't have an issue with the fact that you disagree with some published material. I have an issue with the fact that you've decided that disagreeing isn't enough - the material you dislike also has to be condemned as a greivous injustice against the background.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Actually, Final Liberation is from 1997 and thus shortly before 3rd Edition, not really as old and outdated as you make it look to be.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You don't honestly assume that Fykos Forge is openly producing this weapon in a large scale on assembly lines, openly advertising it to the public, do you? That would be a rather stupid thing to do, given its degree of legality (or lack thereof). Someone (or a small group) within Fykos setting aside materials to construct these weapons doesn't equal the entire Manufactorium being dedicated to it.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Of course. Astartes rounds, however, did exist. And given the development of technology in the Imperium, it stands to reason that "back then" there should have been even more weapons capable of using them. How did DW word it? "In the Imperium, older is better."

That is, if Astartes rounds actually ARE different from normal bolt rounds. I'm still not really jumping on that wagon, but for the sake of argument I'm willing to assume this, as even then it'd make no sense why they should not be available to the Imperium. Given that the Imperium produces them (or rather is at least amongst the list of producers).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And Vandire would not have to steal them. Having supreme rule over the entire Imperium would logically mean that he'd be able to issue a decree to have them mass-produced on a thousand worlds if he wanted. You make it sound as if the one High Lord that rivaled the God-Emperor in authority would be subjected to the same limits as some lowly player character Acolyte.

Well, I'm going by what the Munitorum Manual states.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Given that I'm argueing for the RPG to break with the established fluff that should be logical, no?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

It's in the Dark Heresy core rulebook. If you cannot find it yourself I can scan the respective box for you once I get home.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

A diameter of 1,9 cm isn't that big, actually.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Too bad that Marine Scouts don't wear power armour. I guess that means they have to suck it up as well? Just like the recruits subjected to bolter drills to judge their worthiness of being inducted into the Chapter?

As for the controls it should honestly not be that hard to reduce the scale of grip and trigger by, say, 10%.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Again: I am not dismissing the RPG, I am challenging it. You are the one who ignores (as of yet) un-overruled 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition fluff, who ignores the Munitorum Manual, who ignores countless novels, comics and computer games, who ignores even the Tabletop on which the entire setting is built.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

As long as the weapon is designed for him, why should he? The DH rules (sadly) don't make any difference in requirements between a stub pistol and a Locke-pattern boltgun as well, regardless of whether you're a lowly Scribe with SB2 or a power-armoured hulk with SB7.

That said, in our group we've houseruled this and gave different bolt weapons a "recoil grade", with the Ceres and Locke being on a 3 and the Sacristan and Godwyn-De'az on a 4. The latter is also where I would place the Angelus, even if - as per the RAW - it ironically requires less Strength to be used than a Sacristan bolt pistol, which is a variant of the Godwyn-De'az.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

No, I wouldn't go that far. I am just argueing for the position that it isn't an accurate depiction of the setting. That DH/RT and DW simply work on two different scales of narration (or "level of epicness" if you will), and that characters from each would need to be changed appropriately would they carry over from one game into the other.

Lynata said:

Well, if the Mechanicus says no to someone then they have no choice but to steal it and hope they don't get found out. The Mechanicus is allied with the Imperium, not a part of it. If an independent manufactorum starts producing something that the AdMech said not to, that's when the AdMech gets to roll in with the big toys and take over. Even Vandire would have known not to mess with the AdMech.

ItsUncertainWho said:

There's some weight to that, but given that there is a non-AdMech manufactorium in the Calixis Sector officially churning out Astartes-grade bolter rounds it seems that they are not on the list of forbidden items to produce per se. Also, the Mechanicus had pretty much withdrawn from the Imperium as a whole during Vandire's reign. They did not roll in until the Fabricator General allied with Thor and the Marine Chapters he managed to rally to his cause. Vandire was pretty much free to do as he wished before this one turning point - and he exploited this in seemingly every possible way, in his madness completely unimpressed by what his orders resulted in. He actually ordered the Guard and the Navy to launch a pre-emptive strike against the Marines and the Mechanicus as they told him to step down, which goes to show how far he was willing to go. He would, though this is just my opinion based on his actions, not have stopped at bolt rounds.

Which I still don't believe to be different from Munitorum standard, anyways, but that's another matter.

As a sidenote, Thor majorly trolled the AdMech a lot as he moved the Ecclesiarchy's Technology Purification Centre from Terra to Ophelia VII and thus out of reach for the AdMech whilst simultaneously claiming the Mechanicus' manufactoriums that were producing the power armour and boltguns for the Brides. So there are instances where you can say "no" to them. It's a give and take in the Imperium, and even the AdMech isn't able to take everything it wants just like that. There's a constant trade of (re)discovered technology for high-tech products between the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus, which keeps both sides more or less happy with the deal they have, but, aside from their disagreement on religion, Thor's actions are one of the major reasons for why they don't like each other (and why plasma weapons are comparatively rare within the ranks of the Sisterhood).