Kain McDogal said:

The ammunition is built with the delay built in. The round strikes and after the delay period, it detonates. Against soft targets, ammunition with less/no delay would be used. There are several occurances in novels where comments are made by Astartes that againest unexpectedly soft targets the rounds overpenetrate and don't explode inside the target.

Deuterium, eh? Nobody at GW did any chemistry, I can see. They should have stuck to made up elements. Handwavium and Uberonium, all the way.

Actually, you need more velocity than to simply plonk the round out of the barrel. In the case of non-PA equipped troops it needs to go a sufficient distance to not burn the user when the rocket kicks in, and it needs to retain enough velocity not to drop trajectory prior to the rocket kicking in in order to preserve accuracy. And it needs to be travelling fast enough to penetrate and set the explosive warhead off at point blank range for CQB. In the case of Astartes weapons (who fight ANYWHERE) the round also needs to be able to perform these functions in far denser atmosphere's than ours, and even in a liquid medium. And-as you say- there is no stock to help further absorb recoil. Bolters kick like a mule, even using generous back-of-***-packet working out of the recoil impulse.

Also: Shotgun ammunition has one hell of a lot of recoil. Autoshotguns are an impractical weapon at the best of times, made barely practical by the naturally short range of engagement and dispersed ammunition (because nobody is strong enough to hold an automatic weapon on target at 100m, even with a stock). And of course, a 12 gauge frag round is relatively light and doesn't include a propulsion mechanism or armour-penetrating warhead. Even if a bolter somehow 'only' had the recoil of a 12 gauge, unenhanced troops could not fire them automatically or rapidly with any real chance of successfully engaging at the theoretical accurate range of the weapon. Doubly so without a stock.

Lynata said:

Because DW uses DH weapon stats for non-Astartes gear.

Inquisitor Quist in The Emperor Protects:

"Ceres-Pattern Bolt Pistol 30m S/2/– 1d10+5 X Pen 4 Clip 8 Rld Full Tearing"

Of course she also has a Force Halberd. But it shows you that FFG has been cementing for now the under-poweredness that has been introduced by DH.

I have to renew my statement: DH author's did a wonderful job but unfortunately their weapons do not properly reflect weapon strength in 40K. FFG has done a much better job with the errata'd DW weaponry. What FFG needs to do is to add an advice to the next erratas DH/RT/DW erratas how to bring all the weapons together. I'd say a +1 or +2 bonus to damage, depending on how ubiquitous you judge mighty shot to be . I fear your Sororita's are stuck with what they have been given by DH for now. Like I said, DH is to blame. Maybe a future 40K RP 2E will change all that.

Alex

++++in case someone really thinks Marine hands are four times the size of a normal human's++++

Well, again

Man, it just makes so much sense that those massive guns do more damage...

To be honest it would be pretty silly if they didn't.

Siranui said:

No, let us have that quote stand. We take it as precedence for what understanding of equality GW has.

The quote was:

"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines."

The Jane Average Battle Sister has the following stats (as published on the GW website):

WS 3
BS 4
S 3
T 3
W 1
I 3
A 1
Ld 8
Sv 3+

Now the statline of her 'equal' (run-of-the-mill Tactical marine, troop choice), John Average-Battle-Brother:
WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 4
W 1
I 4
A 1
Ld 8
Sv 3+

For the record: according to GW's idea of equality does not mean absolutely equal stats. Now if we figure in general equipment and point cost we find that Battle Sisters have less standard loadout and worse stats, no marines special abilities but faith powers instead and still cost less points than a space marine.

From that we can infer that GW's idea of equality does not mean sameness by a long shot. And neither does it mean exact equality but only rough equality, according to fuzzy logic, just as I have claimed.

Alex

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

RogalDorn said:

RogalDorn said:

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

And the assumption that people who regularly lug heavy bolters into battle on their own are suddenly have trouble dealing with much smaller projectiles just because they're usually fired from an "Astartes" bolt pistol still beggars belief. I shouldn't even need any quotes to point out how utterly illogical this looks like.

Siranui said:

ak-73 said:

At least the Vindicare Assassin seems strong enough to fire Astartes-grade bolt weapons, even without power armour...

AluminiumWolf said:

But hey, as I tried finding that image again I also stumbled over this one . Now, that looks much closer to GW's idea. Sorry that it likely doesn't quite hit yours.

Anyways, I realize I won't get anywhere here, so this will be my last post in this thread. I think I have done all that I could, but beyond providing GW canon quotes as well as explanations for why they are reasonable, there's nothing else I could add. I'm sorry to have wasted everyone's time.

Lynata said:

Yes but the only thing you bring to back up your belief that Gw treats the BI stuff as not cannon is a Gav Thorpe quote about the black library and how they treat their novels. Which I challenged on the validty that he is no longer a valid authority your appealing to because he is no longer the head of the ip neither is mann. Therefore their noth the proper authority you can appeal to. I will also challenge your claim based on apples to oranges meaning that comparing their policy regarding the novels is an invalid comparision when comparing BL and BI. By the bye I never siad that the ffg stuffy overwrites cannon I clearly said that the BI stuff does count as cannon and only the BI stuff because they were owned and operated by GW. I also disagree that they would operate under the same umbrella of rules that BL operates under because their books do contain crunch as well as fluff witch is more similiar to the codex's then the novels.

Lynata said:

You mean the gyrojet-concept. These kind of guns do more damage at longer ranges because the self -propelled projectiles are constantly accelerating, but this would also mean a Bolter is nearly useless (except for his explosive charge) at short range. Therefore the first stage has to deliver enough energy to accelerate the round to sufficient speed and the second stage has to maintain that speed. We are talking about a projectile which is heavier than a shotgun slug and has to penetrate heavy armor with the range of a battle-rifle. So the recoil should be like a shotgun with slug ammunition. If you want more kinetic energy you need a bigger charge, a bigger gun and a bigger soldier who can whield it.

By the way where is the need to engineer giant super soldiers if you will equip them with puny weapons for mortals? Did Briareos from 'Appleseed' used a lightweight Seburo SMG or an heavy Assault Cannon?

I know this is out of fluff but a lot of original GW-concepts where complete nonsense up to point that they are unbearable in a RPG which tries to portray a living universe.

Lynata said:

Let me just say one or two things:

1. You haven't wasted anyone's time. Everyone who participated in this thread did so out of their own volition.

2. I am sympathetic with your position. Being a female in a male dominated hobby that is about teenage boys wish-fulfillment isn't always easy, I suppose. And some of the guys here could have been more understanding. No wonder so few girls get involved.

That said, I still think you're making too much of a fuss out of it.

Think about how this developed:

1. DH comes out and it tones down weapons for playability but includes the bolter leading to bolter inflation

2. RT comes out and it adopts these stats. DW hasn't been developed yet so it's requirements don't influence RT stats yet. All RT does is provide even higher quality gear because of the higher level campaign.

3. DW comes out. Marines have actually their Strength and Toughness correctly modelled. Even if you don't want to use (x2), you'd have to give them at least +3 if not +4. Now the underpowered DH weapons cease working which means you have to develop new stats, DW stats, which are actually better mappings of 40K TT weapons. This however makes compatibility with DH and RT more difficult. And it actually impacts DW because mortals in DW use DH level weapons, which are incorrectly mapped.

That in turn makes the SoBs suck in comparison to Astartes and you have my sympathy there .

Lynata, listen to this: a basic Guardsman is 5 point model, a basic Battle Sister a 12 point model, a basic Deathwatch is a 25 point Sternguard equivalent. Even if we reduce the profile back to A1 (DW Rank1 normally don't have Swift Attack), he's still about 20 points with his specialty ammo.

Let me renew my analysis please: Battle Sisters are RT-level PCs. If you want to field them in DH, they should be Novitias. If you want to field them in Deathwatch, they should be roundabout Palatines. And I wouldn't be surprised if we were to see rules for non-Astartes heroic PCs in the next 'season' of DW.

Alex

Anyone interested is invited to participate. That goes especially for Lynata:

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

Alex

Lynata said:

Do you realize that the fact that the book implies that you may have bolts of different calibre than 0.75 could means that you also have bolters with wider barrels right?

++++basic Deathwatch is a 25 point Sternguard equivalent.++++

Man, if an average Marine is even less impressive than a Deathwatch character they really don't deserve their reputation.

hi I am new to this discussion which I believe just has been consider closed, am I correct?

So I have one question to all the people who participated in this discussion...

What is the conclusion to this debate?

both parties seemed unwilling to accept the other's arguments, and this thread have grown into one big verbal conflict about who can convince the other party, yet no matter what evidence is presented both parties are totally reluctant to even consider the fact that maybe the other party has a valid point...

I am not saying who is right and who is wrong, because i most certainly can't.

And i have to admit that this thread has been very interesting to follow and read and I have learned many new details about Warhammer 40000 lore.

but people please why so hostil in your arguments?

I can understand that you are obviously very passionate in your defence, but that does not necessarily mean that you should insult your opponent does it?

all I want to say is that I believe it is possible to have an open discussion about any given topic without resorting to any form of hostility.

that is after all the very purpose of this entire forum is it not?

It is just so ******* tedious to have to wade through a knee deep layer of Marine haters every time I want to make up cool **** about Space Marines.

Only on the internet could the suggestion that Space Marines should be awesome be controversial.

--

It goes something like:- Does having bigger guns make Space Marines cooler. I think it does, and since the idea is to make Marines as cool as possible, in it goes.

If you think Marines having bigger guns makes Marines cooler and as a result we shouldn't do it, well, could you please get out of the way.

--

I mean, Space Elfs wouldn't benefit coolness wise from bigger guns because their thing is Speed and Precision. But Marines are all about Size and Strength and Brute Force, so having bigger guns makes a lot of sense thematically.

Lynata Said:

At least the Vindicare Assassin seems strong enough to fire Astartes-grade bolt weapons, even without power armour...

Actually, no, though to be fair the Vindicare has access to both Unnatural Strength and Toughness, and in all fluff is said to be subjected to all manner of genetic enhancements. What i actually said was about the Executor pistol used by the Eversor Assassins.They are (I believe) a creation of FFG for Ascension, and are described as insane, bloodlusting killing machines that must be kept in cryo during transit so they don't slaughter everything that moves aboard the ship. Furthermore, that upon closer inspection, the damage listed in the entry for the Eversor assassin (rather then the Armoury table) is only 1d10+5, and also come with Unnatural Strength and Toughness as well as so many combat drugs that they could keep an IG platoon fighting for a week without pause.

I do have one further bone to pick: you've yet to answer anyone's explanation that equality is not being exactly the same. Your entire argument boils down to that particular piece of fluff as the rest has been summarily picked apart (granted by a huge number of posters of varying degrees of validity, most notably ak-73 as a sterling example, tip of the cap, good sir), and there are a huge number of examples of equipment unavailable to the SoB as well as (I find it hard to believe there are not...but again, I do not have the books to page through) fluff paragraphs in the SM Codices following the 2E WH Codex stating their superiority of gear.

PS

SoB, Astartes Bolters or no, hunting down rogue Space Marine chapters is laughable. As per every piece of fluff ever written regarding them, the Astartes are the finest warriors the Imperium has ever seen. They would tear the SoB to tiny shreds and then send the pieces of them back to their Daemonic masters. I can only compare it to sending me and my hunting buddies after the Navy Seals. Despite our shiny, high grade weaponry (my buddy actually bought a Dragunov, what a beauty), they would laugh circles around us before slitting our throats. So while they were sent, they failed.

BangBangTequila said:

The Eversor Assassin was one of the earliest specific Temple Assassins GW ever created, back in the early 90s. It, alongside the Vindicare and Callidus, have existed for a long time, with the Culexus being comparatively more recent.

See, I was born in 1990, so they predate me. I've simply never heard of them before. Thanks for the clarification.

EVERSOR ASSASSIN: For when the High Lords really need to kill every last mother frakker in the room!

Even if they're all Space Marines Mwah ha ha haaa.....

Dark Heresy vs. Deathwatch is completely unbalanced when you compare it to fluff!

How can Space Marines be as good as TEMPLE ASSASSINS

Alex: Thanks for the stats.

Wow... like... no way are they equal! Pretty much the same as IG, but better at shooting and slightly braver! I assumed from all the hyperbole that they were pretty much the same, bar S and T.

My conclusion from this isn't so much that SoBs are hard done-by in DW (which they were never designed to operate in), but that the Guardsman is even more shafted than I previously assumed!

As to hunting down rogue Astartes... that comes from fluff in the original RT40k rulebook. I'm not sure if it's repeated afterwards elsewhere or indeed where. Although my impression was that the people you send after rogue chapters are other chapters... specifically the Space Wolves, given that they were three for three before the Heresy even started!

Lynata said:

Real world gyrojet weapons are not successful or viable outside of special circumstances. It clearly *is* a problem, given that the round cited in your source has a low velocity under 9m, and a maximum range of 50m. In order to get a better range, you need a larger rocket launched at higher velocity. The 'nam era gyrogets reinforce my point. Even better: If you can fire the bolt at conventional firearm-like velocity, you can rifle the barrel and impart spin stability that way, and simply use a single rocket port, which tallies with the illustrations seen on 40k.

Not really: A round detonating on contact or prior to breaching armour is going to do less damage than one that explodes inside someone.

*much* smaller projectiles?

It's not illogical for the reasons that I've mentioned. Non-astartes are not expected to fire their weapons in a liquid medium, or under 50 atmospheres of pressure, so the ejection velocity could be lower, reducing recoil. Additionally, because they are support weapons, IG HBs do not need as much short range velocity to ensure penetration, because they are not being used at very short ranges. I see Astartes ammunition as making few compramises to user friendliness as regards effectiveness.

It's not circular logic taking into consideration that Astartes armour supposedly acts to heavily baffle the recoil.

That's not particularly 'low recoil' on the AA-12, by the way. You aren't going to be hitting much with that firing it one-handed. Being able to physically fire a firearm with one hand does not equate to being able to practically use it. After all: People don't even fire pistols in one hand if they're doing it properly. Remember also the huge difference in mass between 7 pieces of buckshot and a self-propelled armour piercing round with an explosive warhead.

Siranui said:

Well, that is why Lynata is fighting so hard. The Battle Sisters do have an above average statline but nothing spectacular. What they do have is their faith powers and their MEQ gear. DH does give them GEQ gear and naturally she doesn't like that.

Which is why I have introduced in this thread PA and Bolters who are a point below Astartes quality. Enough to be more or less 'equal' imho. If you want to a Battle Sister to go on duty with the Deathwatch, you need to pick an Elite SoB like a Palatine which has significantly improved stats.

In my vision, the Palatine sister would still be squishy in comparison to the Astartes but I'd give her faith powers that would make her be as tough or as damaging as an Astartes, possibly even more, at the expense of a fate point. Through the use of her faith powers.

Alex

Why didn't I just grab my 40k books before. Space marines according to the fluff are over 7 feet tall not 7 feet tall but taller then 7 feet pg168 in the warhammer 40k book they released they one that has stats for all the armies. They also say that there are equiiped with the best armor and weapons the imperium has to offer. In that same book pg 255 the sisters of battle are claimed has being equipped with "advanced armour and weapons" not the best just advanced. We can infer from this that there is q clear distinction in quality between there weapons and armour.

AluminiumWolf said:

I don't know, I find bright/dark lances and eldar titans to be pretty **** cool. Also, I think the space marine strength, in a very real way, is speed and precision -- attack where the enemy is weakest, and before they can respond. So I would say that the hugest guns and armor available are probably going to be the coolest.

As to SoB vs Astartes... the SoB power armor is light, so it doesn't make them more likely to be hit. Their storm bolters, on the other hand, are superior to (with the new stats) astartes bolters, despite that I don't particularly see why. The sisters of battle seem to have the best equipment available for non-astartes that isn't the insanely rare stuff, like force screens. Sisters of Battle aren't for fighting astartes, but if they were, you will find that giving them Vengeance rounds for their storm bolters is all you need.

In that context I wonder what the upcoming SoB White Dwarf codex will bring.

www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php

Alex