Lynata said:

Okay, but you gotta explain to me why Deathwatch stats for marines isn't representative of what they are supposed to be. It seems to me that DH is underpowered rather than DW being overpowered.

Lynata said:

In that case the power level in Deathwatch is about right, no? With a Feat of Strength and a S of 50+, you can actually punch of heads.

Lynata said:

I do. Vincian my BA Librarian in The Russian's PbP game goes into combat without a helmet. Oh, he does use a helmet now but only to record auto senses data into data slate and cartograph for further reference.

As for shrugging off, neither you nor I know what Gav meant by shrugging off. Personally I don't consider a wound that does 1 Wound Point shrugging off. If I inflicted a wound less than that on you, you'd already be calling the police (rightly so). Losing a wound point is a non-negligible injury as in: if you got a number of those, it'll kill you). In fact, since critical damage is cumulative, even one wound point on top of previous can kill.

If the Marine we're talking about had been to 0 wound points already, he'd get a critical 5 Impact to the head (or another body location) (thanks to True Grit). That's no shrugging off even by your definition.

Look we don't even have to go that much into detail because then we'll quickly land at the quirks of a particular system. The point is this: marines aren't clearly overpowered in Deathwatch if we adopt Gav Thorpe's description of them. The question remains: is DW overpowered or rather DH weapons underpowered? I think it's the latter.

Lynata said:

It relates in so far as we have to ask ourselves if the DW power level of weapons doesn't more accurately reflect the level weapons should have and if DH didn't underpower them. As for equality, it depends on whether you apply binary logic or fuzzy logic. In the latter sense equal means being "equal enough".

Lynata said:

To me it means the exact opposite: they don't want to have their hands tied by outsiders.

Lynata said:

No, because I dispute that the the differences you have mentioned between studio material and GW's original world (original? seriously? as in: squats still exist? what is GW's original world anyway?) constitute a seperate interpretation. The differences are fairly negligible. Marines have the capabilities as described in 'GWs orginal world'. Actually Astartes weapon damages seems to be mapped well enough nowadays.

What is incorrect is DH weapon damages.

Lynata said:

Flamers should have Felling(1) instead. Fire is in my mind a good example for when to use that Weapon Quality.

Anyway we have yet to clarify whether DW weapons are overpowered or DH's underpowered.

Lynata said:

I'm not so sure about that anymore. So let's say that FFG actually did a good job of mapping 40K TT into 40K RP. How about the thought that they inherited a pioneering system that did an underpowered mapping of 40K weapons into its novel RPG system? And that the difficulties in integration stem from that? And they only know becoming aware of that, now that they have created an Astartes level RPG?

Lynata said:

And I take the middle of all this. All dots in a cluster, remember?

Lynata said:

A DH quote, nice, but since we're playing with Marines, we'll resort to DW rules. SO let me renew my call: where does it explicitly say that NPCs cannot do Righteous Fury in DW? You will look up the equivalent section in the DW core rulebook and find it's not present. Splitting hairs as RAI it likely does not apply but still.

Lynata said:

And they work in a manner so that a well-placed shot can kill a Space Marine, if you include RF. Marines are supposed to shrug off such wounds.

Lynata said:

But that's a piece of fluff that is so easily retconned or over-ridden, you won't believe it. You can call that a reinterpretation or FFG's house rule or whatever. Nobody except die-hard SoB fans will notice or even care. What gamers will notice is if the SoB Bolter suddenly does damage in the realm of what would be S3 weapons.

I'm saying this: if a marine Bolter does 1d10+9 and FFG gives the SoB bolter 1d10+7 or +8, they'll get away with it. Nobody but you and fellow fans will notice. If they give SoB Bolters 1d10+5 (where autoguns have 1d10+3), that's when even less acquainted fans will realize 'Man, that's more like a S3 Bolters they got.'

And nobody except a hardcore SoB fan will make much of 1 or 2 point difference.

I have to say though that if they gave the SoB a Bolter with the exact same stats as an Astartes, it wouldn't be a drama to me either. I just would consider it odd. And I consider it an oddness you can get away with in the TT but in an RPG... it's just so much more pronounced.

Lynata said:

So you're not sticking to the game world you have been used to from 20 years. I figured.

Lynata said:

FS armour has an average of 8 AV over all hit location rolls. DW has 0.6 x 8 + 0.4 x 10 = 8.8. Not even a single point increase on average. A jump? Seriously? You are exaggerating. And let's not discount that they may have used the 8 all around for the sake of simplicity.

Lynata said:

No blanks? Really? You're not serious.

Lynata said:

Depends on what means by equal though. I would call Federer and Nadal pretty much equal. Still Federer has won a lot more Grand Slams, iirc. You are intentionally applying binary logic because that's what furthers your case. I am telling you that a legitimate interpretatiom is reading "equal" as "pretty much equal". Or as equal in the sense of "equal in gaming terms". Which amounts to the same thing.

You can deny that, we'll have dissent here.

Lynata said:

No problem, I just don't see any of it being as big a deal as you make out of it.

Lynata said:

**** right. Double **** right. It's my personal preference to disbelieve that children could wield a large callibre weapon made for 210cm hulking giants. Children lifting an 18kg weapon and pointing it meaningfully at anyone or anything?

Get outta here.

Lynata said:

The answer remains the same as before.

One word of advice though: if you settle on playing "GW's 40K", no matter how preposterous a piece of fluff might be, you'll make yourself into a laughing-stock. Just saying.

As for your calling my not adopting that particular piece of fluff personal preference, I have to tell you: the 40K lore isn't my bible. It's not something I cling to in contradiction to common sense.

Lynata said:

All that is necessary is for 40K RP SoB bolters is to have a S4 classification, which means being close enough in damage to the Astartes Bolter. The term equal is ambiguous enough, as it may mean perfect equality (binary logic) or equal enough for most purposes (fuzzy logic, equal not meaning the same).

Lynata said:

And I say only what I write is canon. Or no, just everything Siranui writes is canon. Everything else, including rulebooks and codices is fanfic.

Canon is a meaningless term. I am glad that I am not a literalist.

Lynata said:

Simulationist thinking applied to 40K RP. Can't find sense.

Lynata said:

I am sorry to have to say this but if you can't make a heroic game involving SoBs with rules that have been provided, you're either a weak GM or a weak player. A weak GM because you don't know how to tweak the rules and abilities and equipment to make it work or a weak player because you lack the imagination on what you'd have to ask your GM for to make the thing work.

Besides the more of an underdog you are , the greater the heroics. That's why I prefer low-poweredgames (among other things), which part of the reason why I have picked DH as my favourite game in the rankings to the left.

Lynata said:

Who is talking down though? DH didn't give weapons the proper damage. That's why SoBs have much weaker bolters than Astartes now in 40K RP. Give all weapons +2 damage and you have a good basis. If that's not good enough for you, house rule it differently.

Lynata said:

I don't see myself as someone who blindly accepts anything that the Bible says. Actually since I am buddhist that's not a good example but still.

"It stands somewhere in the studip material, it must be true."

Lynata said:

And you know what? That is odd. But the reason for that is to a large degree due to DH not giving the HB significantly more damage than the Bolter. 2d10 is S3 equivalent in TT terms. S5 is sth like 1d10+12 or 2d10+7.

Lynata said:

Yeah and a single Space Marine can take on a modern day infantry division with ease.

Lynata said:

You'll always offend some people though, that can't be avoided and has to be taken into account. I don't see anyone being unable of being heroic. I can see my DH Scum becoming entirely heroic.

You have to answer one question though, Lynata:

If among the billions and trillions of Imperial citizens you could only find a couple of thousands capable of being so heroic that they could roll with the Astartes, why would you still need the Space Marines? Just give those Sororitas, Guardsmen, Acolytes, Arch-Militants the proper equipment and let them fight against Hive Tyrants and Eldar Avatars instead.

The only conclusion that can be drawn out of the special status of the Astartes is that only special heroes, unbelievably rare individuals can keep up with them or else you just need dumb luck (hitting the Hive Tyrant at his sole vulnerable spot).

Lynata said:

No. I don't hold any over the other. I'll return to the cluster image: both are just dots in that cluster. GW is a fairly thick one though.

Alex

Zakalwe said:

Certainly. Other R.C.C.s you might be interested in include Reformed Demon (aka the 'Hellboy'), Gretchin Squiggoth Herder and Reborn Emperor.

Just as a minor point, it's been brought up frequently that Dark Heresy did some sort of disservice to the Bolter by depicting them as available to civilians.

So... has everyone forgotten Necromunda, then? While hardly commonplace, Bolt Pistols, Bolters and Heavy Bolters (to say nothing of plasma and melta weapons and power weapons) were all available to gangers in Necromunda, characters who pretty much all fall into the Scum archetype within Dark Heresy. Non-military access to bolt weapons is hardly new, nor is it an innovation by Black Industries when they wrote the Dark Heresy rulebook.

Yeah, I don't have any problem with there being a selection of bolt guns available, ranging from small pocket derringer bolt pistols through weapons designed for unenhanced humans via the famed weapons carried by the legendary Astartes* to the great Vulcan megabolters equiping the God Machines of the Titan legions.

Regular guns range from James Bond's PPK through M4 Carbines through .50 cals to the 120mm smoothbore on an M1A2 tank and beyond. Not all guns are created equal.

*That hit like an Apaches 30mm:-

Warning, Graphic gun camera footage

Warning, Graphic gun camera footage

Warning, Graphic gun camera footage

AluminiumWolf said:

Hmmm, interesting. I might be interested in them, in the same way I'm interested in Heretics...

...interested in having them in my GUNSIGHTS that is, Purge the unclean, KILL 'EM ALL!!! ZAP ZAP ZAP!

(or should that be 'Whoosh-Kaboom, Whoosh-Kaboom , Whoosh-Kaboom' as my fully borged Iron Hands Space Marine lets 'em have it with his d6x10 bolter)

By the by, here we see a comparison between the Phl4CC1d pattern round common in bolt weapons used by non-augmented humans (left) and the mighty 3rr3C7 pattern 'Kraken' bolt used by the Deathwatch (on the right).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yeah the main problem with DH bolters that I see is that they would fall into the S3 category if we'd do a 40K TT to 40K RP mapping (pen is okay). That creates a huge disparity between mortal bolters and Astartes bolters.

That's a problem easy enough to fix for any GM who has a problem with it though. I just would make bolt weapons more difficult to get your hands on for an Acolyte then though. And probably even more expensive.

Alex

Bolters, yeah they should be a bit tougher in DH but:

My Assassin has an Orthlack MkIV Thollos with a fire selector and the mighty shot talent. Using manstoppers that's D10+6 Pen 3 ROF S/-/6. Six whole rounds of full auto goodness. Bad Heretic(s), dead Heretic(s).

Or an Armageddon Pattern Autogun with the same mods. Or a heavy stubber for the beefcakes.

You get six manstopper rounds for five thrones, compared to one bolt gun round for twenty thrones; what does he need a bolter for anyway? Six whole combat rounds of full auto doing the above listed damage for thirty thrones, beats one combat round for one hundred thrones (assuming ROF of 5 for the bolter - not too sure).

And it's cheap enough that surpressing fire is an option too.

This debate about bolters will never be resolved because there is no objective right answer, you know that aye. If DW was supposed to be completely compatible with DH it would have been a suppliment instead of a standalone game.

AluminiumWolf said:

You realize, of course, that the moment Lynata sees this she is going to dispute its canon status simply because it did not come from the most holy Games Workshop or from the minds of the anointed saints that make up the staff, right?

Lynata said:

Every single aspect? How so? Any DH character will trounce the hell out of a Marine when it comes to skills, any Ascension character has vastly more political sway thanks to those ton of talents for it. Psykers are far more flexible than Librarians. Astartes are supposed to be vastly superior than normal humans in the field of combat. The game represents that in an abstracted way. Part of that abstraction is better boltguns. You don't think that people take turns to move and fire on the field of battle, or in melee, and yet you accept that abstraction already, and that's far more an absurd abstraction than giving marines better firearms to represent their increased prowess. The alternative would perhaps be just to say 'Every weapon a marine picks up does +5 damage, because he's just better with it than everyone else'. It's just as valid. You need to accept that the 40k RPG line is not a realistic simulation system.

And yes: It is cinematic. That's really not even something that deserves debate. Even DH is cinematic, because I'll wager that shooting anyone here in the face with a pistol once won't leave them in any fit condition to take another one before needing to worry about medical attention. And I don't know about you, but I can't actually tell which bullets are about to hit me in time to dodge them, either!

As to what fluff we use for the RPG... Generally I'll be using the fluff that's there in front of me in the RPG, not only because it's the newest, or because it's the most relevant, or even because I'm not buying 20 years worth of an appallingly bad and disgustingly overpriced wargame that has less to do with tactics than Orthello, but because it was tailored towards making a better RPG. That's a better RPG in the way that it was intended: As a stand-alone product, rather than trying to mix and match systems.

Novel Marines aren't canon? Err...yeah, they are. Gav Thorpe doesn't work for GW any more. He can say whatever he likes. Unless you count his BL work... which according to you isn't canon.

Nothing happens on the corruption scale in a physical sense, because that would not be in keeping with the game. Roleplaying is clearly another matter, and there should clearly be roleplay effects to a high corruption. Calling the Insanity results 'lenient' is pushing it, I'd say. Not only do the marines suffer from the 'battle fatigue' insanities, but also the Primarch's Curse. I'd argue that the level 1 UM curse was possibly the most dangerous insanity out there. But it's horses for courses. Other 'human' characters might be indoctrinated, but probably not quite to the same level, by the same means, or for the same purpose, and of course excluding the effects that the geneseed clearly has on the psyche, perhaps as a stabilising influence, replacing the minds 'normal' turn to insanity by the assertion of the Curse.

Hordes are an abstraction. An excellent one that (having run firefights in DH with 40 outclassed combatants battling the PCs) speeds the game up enormously, allowing the GM to spend less time dully rolling dice and more time describing the action.

DW is a heroic game with heroic themes. DH's themes are very different. At 'normal' levels the party are supposed to be outgunned in a horror-survival situation and using their heads, while at higher levels the game's themes shift to political power playing and 'pulling strings'. Although they share the same system in a vague sense, they are not really compatible. Even the combat-wombats in DH should adhere to the games thematics, and those thematics are geared towards making players react with 'holy &^%!' and horror when three genestealers pop out at the party. It's horses for courses, and I personally don't really believe for a second that characters from games should mingle. One could just as easily complain that Astartes don't get to wield the frankly enormous political power and have access to those resources that DH/RT character's have. It's because they don't deserve it because it's not the theme of the game.

I genuinely don't think that there really should ever be crossover rules. Because Marines have no real place in a horror survival game (except as an NPC who gets horribly killed in order to show the players just how dangerous the monster is), and Inquisitors have no place in a warrior saga (Antonio Banderos was clearly NOT working with a character in the same league as the rest of the cast of 13th Warrior when it came to combat; a fine reflection of an 'ascended' political-based character being utterly out-gunned because he was out-of-genre). If DH characters were to 'cross over' into a DW game, then they need a DW-style character class, written from the ground up as appropriate to that game, rather than a weak port. I wouldn't expect a WFRP character to last long in D&D even if the characters were both warriors, having been on the same number of adventures, with the same background, because the strengths and weaknesses of characters is genre-dependant, not a yard-stick.

'weapon drill' is not firing a weapon, no more than driving a car is changing gear. I'm not sure if you're just being deliberately obtuse in willfully misunderstanding, but I'll give the benefit of doubt. Weapon drill are the actions and procedures performed with that weapon. How you load it, how you move it, how you unload it, how you hand it to someone else safely, how you clear a stoppage, and the *procedure* for firing it (charging the weapon, shouldering it, disengaging safety and selecting fire mode, pulling the trigger, re-engaging the safety, et al). A soldier is taught the drill and repeats it hundreds of times before even attempting to do so with live ammunition. It's easy enough to mangle a finger in an ejection port with a normal weapon. One can easily imagine it being a ludicrously dangerous operation in the case of small children being handed massively heavy Astartes weapons, complete with angry and tempremental machine spirits who don't like being handled by non-astartes. Broken feet from dropped weapons are probably one of the nicer accidents that could happen.

Equal to their brothers? But they're not, are they. The stat line is weaker. Which is right here? The canon or the TT stat block? And I suspect that the quote is probably from the SoB banner page. What did you expect it to say 'SoBs aren't as good as marines, but buy them anyway'? GW writes whatever fluff it feels like in order to sell lines and make whoever is buying the codex feel good about his own army. Has any WD battle report for a new-codex army ever actually lost a game?

ItsUncertainWho said:

Wow. Yes it is.

Thanks for that. It kinda makes a bit of a joke of the original selective quotation.

I guess all 40k soldiers are supposedly equal to any other organisation... because it'd be a bit of a poor game if 200points of one thing equated to 600points of another...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The bolter is an iconic weapon, and I'm sure people would have been up in arms had it been excluded. The idea that such sophisticated weaponry (and plasma guns! PLASMA! Why are there even plasma guns ON Necromunda, prior to its invasion?!) is in the hands of the poverty-stricken criminal classes is very much a designers conceit. If we were making a modern gang warfare game, it is doubtful that we would include such things as anti-tank missiles and heavy machineguns, yet a 40k game based on such a premise deserves the 40k version of such things because it is such a core part of the background and mythology.

Plus...Confrontation used a lot of Laser Burn elements of course...

Siranui said:

Depends were set hold it, you might immediately think of the kinds of gangs you get in areas of US cities, but you set it in parts of Africa, South America and Asia and RPG's and Heavy Machine guns are common place for anyone with any amount of cash.

In fact, on similar vein, just recently in the news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-13676259

I really don't see what the fuss is all about. You shouldn't bring a DH-character to a DW-firefight and a DW-character to a DH-investigation!

Maybe SoB are underpowered in comparison but in their setting they are the Gun-Bunnies, actually they are so good at shooting things compared to other DH-characters that we should think about nerfing THEM in favour of the others. Fortunately their lack of investigation-talent is a little balance to most PC but why should I choose to play a Guardsman, if I can also play a power-armoured, bolter-wielding Battle-Maiden? Ironically 'Blood of the Martyrs' was the DH-imbalancer Lyanata is accusing DW for.

Maybe there will be a RPG called 'The real Sisters of Battle who are nearly as cool as overpowered Macho-Marines' in the future but I doubt there will be any interest!

Okay, some of the remarks are a bit too harsh.

Com'on, Sisters of Battle aren't that much worse in combat compared to a marine. I can very well see a SoB "special character" (read: a PC) mingle with the Astartes and be an asset in combat.

Another attempt to bridge the disparity by me: I could see SoBs wielding Astartes gear probably - but with the use of suspensors. That might work. Without any such aid... it just doesn't strike me as plausible that 180 cm women could wield guns tailer-mode for 210 cm augmented super-human males. It will make everyone who isn't very familiar with the 40K fluff scratch their heads.

Beyond that I have to say... sorry Lynata but your talking big about how you prefer GW's universe and then talking about adopting DH's underpowered weapons and that contradicts each other. You are making concessions and pick your own interpretation just like everyone else. No need to be proud of your GW fluff faithfulness.

Alex

Kain McDogal said:

A good point. Not only are they the premier combat class, they also get those nifty faith powers. In their own game they are grossly overpowered compared to the Guardsman - the supposed dedicated combat class. I think that if I were GMing a DH game with a SoB player who tried to complain that Astartes were too powerful, I'd slap them with the rulebook!

With their frankly insane skills and starting gear, how would people here go about making SoBs less OP in DH?

Nasheen said:

Pretty much every description of bolt weapons - including the ones in both the Dark Heresy as well as the Deathwatch RPG.

ItsUncertainWho said:

And if you analyze it more deeply you will notice that genetic enhancements vs faith have been the only differences named, which obviously means their gear would be equivalent. Which is exactly what it also says in the Codex material.

RogalDorn said:

Gav Thorpe has been a major asset to Games Workshop IP and has worked on multiple Codices, so I'd say he has a pretty good insight on how things are dealt with. And George Mann is still the Head of GW Publishing, so ... yeah.

RogalDorn said:

Given the differences, adaptions and changes admitted in the foreword, I find it hard to believe that the end result is "exactly how Marines are supposed to be portrayed" according to the first designers. PR =/= truth.

But if you think the rules for the IP could have changed in the last three years, maybe you can back up that claim with a quote? So far I've seen nothing that would point to this direction.

RogalDorn said:

Uh, that's not quite how it works. An individual from GW freelancing a licensee publication isn't quite the same as people responsible for the fluff in GW sitting together to come up with a uniform approach. GW people surely have more insight into the setting (at least they should), yet they still have their own opinions and preferences, which means the result of their writing may be different when they are "left to themselves" instead of working together with the company's development team. Which is why even novels by GW people may contradict each other or the studio canon. Or RPG books, for that matter. I remember a lot of fans not being too happy with Gav's take on the Salamanders in "Know Thine Enemy" either, and that was when he was still with GW. Now you could argue if it was Gav being wrong, or the Space Marine fans being wrong about the Space Marines. Take your pick - I think either would strengthen my position, just in a different way.

BangBangTequila said:

They always did stuff like that. This is not mutually exclusive with other Imperial factions or characters sporting the same equipment, though. Again: If anyone can provide any studio canon citation about nobody else being able to sport the same kind of weaponry, please do so. Until you can at least establish a contradiction here, I will go with what has apparently remained unchanged, as far as GW is concerned.

BangBangTequila said:

Actually, that "since outdated" piece of fluff (outdated by what?) has been reprinted in the very same RPG books you are defending here.

And of course I'm being stubborn. People still refuse to back up their claims with true canon citations and remain limited to personal preferences. Why should I back down? Other than simply giving up out of resignation, that is. Which I admit having considered for a number of times by now. We're not really moving in any direction here.

ak-73 said:

Likely (-> usual RPG softness). But as I said - same result. There's a lot of ways to gauge/represent the mechanics for characters' efficiency - just like 2 and 2 or 1 and 3 both make 4. I'm going purly by comparisons here, judging one such representation (DH) against the other (DW). Or rather, I object the idea that a comparison between DH and DW should be made on a 1:1 basis, as many posters apparently do. The systems have different themes, different careers and different rules, so why should I assume that the weapons in both DH as well as DW are faithful interpretations?

ak-73 said:

Touché. For some reason I assumed DW would at least use the same rules there, but I was wrong. So much for system compatibility.
Better watch out for children armed with rocks then.

ak-73 said:

Huh? In its context I do - as much as the basic system allows, anyhow. I don't really have the time to develop and print my own version of the RPG, so I'll remain sufficiently content to continue buying FFG stuff that is of interest to me.

That doesn't mean I cannot recommend houseruling certain oddities out of the RAW, though. At least in places where it can be done easily - such as weapon stats.

ak-73 said:

Happens already - yet that doesn't change anything about the missing genetic enhancements, the most important thing that sets the Astartes apart, letting them endure injuries that would fell lesser men and allowing them to pursue different tactics or pull off moves that are just not possible for others. Which is why they have a much higher survivability. That doesn't mean they are the only ones succeeding, else we would not have these extraordinary individuals you mentioned - yet these others would have to work with the appropriate tools to still somehow get the job done.

What I find unfitting is that, all of a sudden, the Space Marines are not just superhumans - as if that wasn't enough - now they are also the sole proprietor of high-quality wargear. I'm sorry, but to me, that's an interpretation that is just not compatible with all the things I've read in studio material over the years.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The innovation was marking anything non-Astartes as "civilian", though.

I also think that the gangs featured in Necromunda were rather special cases with extremely good connections and not your usual off-the-mill scum. You could also get power swords and plasma guns there, after all.

Daisuke said:

I don't even have to pull that card. I just need to kindly request that AW takes a glance at the magazine size/shape of both Astartes- and non-Astartes bolters and ask himself how the warp that is going to fit in there. But just to back this up (in case someone really thinks Marine hands are four times the size of a normal human's), both the official Space Marine Codices as well as your Deathwatch RPG rulebooks contain images of how these projectiles actually look like. No need to consult fanwank.

Siranui said:

Fine. Listen to the Head of GW Publishing then. It's really not like Gavin would be the only one who has commented on the subject - though I'd think that a novel author writing licensee novels for GW would know what they expect of him.

And if you really believe Novel Marines are canon, then enjoy your Multilasers. And backflipping Terminators.

But hey, if you think Novel Marines are canon, does that also go for Novel Sisters and Novel Guardsmen? Careful. Pandora's Box right there.

Siranui said:

But it's not - the boltgun damage and armour protection is exactly the same. Toughness and Strength are different, but that is covered by the missing genetics mentioned on the same page. And I'm not talking about the bodies, I'm talking about the equipment.

Siranui said:

I guess so - yet what matters is that it still is written and established, and it isn't contradicted by anything on the Marines page (or any other GW source for that matter). If you hold the latter in higher esteem, then you're simply picking and choosing as it suits your preferences. As long as there is no contradiction, there is no need to simply dismiss pieces of canon just because you don't like them. You may of course still do so, but the end result is that your interpretation of the universe will differ from GW's.

Siranui said:

SoB (vs Space Wolves) and Dark Eldar did, iirc. That has been quite a while ago, though... I've seen threads in other forums discussing this topic as well, and it seems that in the past ~10 years, the people at GW just play as many games as it takes for the new army to get a win, then they put that one's report into WD.
Not that this has anything to do with the discussion, but maybe someone finds this interesting.

Kain McDogal said:

For what it's worth, I have repeatedly pointed out the same, and that I am missing the Novice ranks from the Inquisitor's Handbook. I am not argueing as one-sided as some people may accuse me of.

SoB even being in DH instead of one of the later games is probably why they only get "civilian" guns, as the writers felt they had to balance it somehow. Not that they are the only careers getting slightly sub-par equipment. I also think Ascended Inquisitors would have deserved better, considering that they used to regularly accompany Space Marines and Grey Knights on combat missions.

Lynata said:

Lynata could you kindly point out a single one of those illustrations that gives any particular scale measurements, please? Or perhaps a description of the exact dimensions of any type of bolt shell. Or better still a description of the materials that go into the construction of the round, or the components that make up the propellants or the explosive charge. The reason you have not done so is because the only descriptions that exist are that the things are .75 caliber, rocket propelled, they explode, and they pierce through personal armour.

In other words: Please stop submitting your own interpretations and assumptions as facts and evidence. I know that this behavior is making it hard for me to take you seriously, not to mention making me irritated that I'm even giving your posts the time of day to read. I can't say for certain if this is true for anyone else.

Lynata said:

Oh...you mean the part where it says that the STANDARD bolt shell is a 0.75 calibre?

Because this gives me the impression that there are other non standard bolt shells from differents calibres.

Diameter tells us nothing about the actual power of a gun. Take the 40x46mm low-velocity and the 40x53mm high-velocity grenades for example. Both have relative low-pressure cartridges (of course, they are for grenade launchers) but the first is for man-portable weapon systems and the second for crew served and mounted weapons. The recoil of a 40x53mm would be barley tolerable for a single infantry-man and the cartridge is simply to long for most launchers. Take into consideration, that in DH all Basic Bolters (I ignore the 2 Storm Bolters because in my W40K universe only Termies should use SB's, really, really old-school fluff) are semi-automatic and Astartes Bolters (under the old rules) are full-automatic. This automatic mechanism needs more space and stronger materials. I've also asked myself how a bolter round knows that it hits the armor and has to be primed to explode inside the target. It needs this information otherwise it would penatrate some cover and would just explode before reaching the target. So the Machine Spirit of each round needs to be fed with some information about the target (rangefinder, heat signature, just a picture or something more complicated). This data input is more difficult if more rounds in short succession leave the barrel, so this mechanism needs to be more high-tech on a full-automatic Bolter and in the W40K Universe this means bigger at least if a 8-foot super soldier has to also use it as a club.

Of course the idea of different sizes for Astartes Weapons is not in-fluff, but it's reasonable and it was introduced to the W40K RPG line from day 1 even under GW/BL own direction.

Daisuke said:

Take a ruler to the official images we have. You know that the "height" is exactly 1.90500 centimeters. Based on that, you should have no problem extrapolating the length, with a minimal margin of error.

Daisuke said:

Actually, we do have more detailed descriptions - I think the 4E Marine 'dex gives one, though I also recall having seen them elsewhere. Might even be in the DW book. Or see the link at the end of this post. I remember the standard bolt shell to be "diamantine tipped", with a "depleted deuterium" core.

No idea what the materials used in construction have to do with the topic at hand, though...?

Daisuke said:

As far as I can see, I'm still the only one submitting any GW canon citations around here to back up my claims. But thanks.

Nasheen said:

How would you fire a projectile of a different caliber from the same weapon? If it's larger it won't fit, if it's smaller you may as well throw the gun at the enemy. Standard bolt shells for both "civilian" as well as Astartes bolters having a diameter of 0.75 inches is the same as both weapons' barrels having a diameter of 0.75 inches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber

Kain McDogal said:

Heavy bolters are normally crew-served, yet the Astartes are not the only ones who can wield them alone. And if someone can wield a heavy bolter, he should have no problem operating a much smaller gun. Blame it on the power armour , if you will, but that's just how it looks like.

I would also like to remember the posters in this thread that we are talking about a two-stage mechanism that involves rocket-propelled projectiles. The first stage only has to deliver sufficient kinetic energy to punch the warhead out of the barrel, and I would say that this is not something that absolutely has to create recoil like a tank cannon, especially as we already have real life examples for personal weapons firing similarly sized projectiles. And that's without sci-fi power armour and 41st millennium recoil suppression technology. Ever noticed how bolters have no stock?

Kain McDogal said:

You're picking and choosing quite a lot there.

RT also has full-auto boltguns, by the way. Still.

Kain McDogal said:

It has previously been described as a "millisecond fuse" in the fluff. Yes, it does include the possibility of a premature (or belated) detonation, but I would say it's the best you can get. Including some kind of targeting data affecting the detonation sequence sounds very high-tech, but also somewhat impractical, as the target will likely be on the move and the slightest deviation from the precogitated path (i.e. the impact area moving by even a single cm, which already happens by simple breathing or a turn of the head) will result in much less efficiency than you would achieve with the fuse.

If you're curious, here is an old description about what you can usually find in a bolt weapon. Also includes some more ammo description.

As I said, I pride myself on researching such details. And you can find a lot of golden nuggets in the old fluff, not all of which has been superseded by newer books.

Kain McDogal said:

From everything we've heard so far out of the mouths of BL authors and GW people (including the Head of Publishing) they don't care much what BL writes, though. What matters is what makes it into in the Codices and army books.

I'd actually not even be sure if Deathwatch really is its own Chapter now (as far as GW is concerned), just because the RPG has taken the liberty to disconnect it from the Ordo Xenos, of which it has always been a part until now.

Lynata said:

I don't have to prove that the licensing policy has changed. You brought up Gav Thorpe he is no longer working at said company. You have to prove that his knoweldge as to how GW works is still valid if not erronous. Second being in charge of publishing is not the same as controlling the IP. Especially as the rpg rules don't fall under the same rules as a novel but must logically fall closer to a codex. But all of this is irrelevant according to you anyway. AS you said anything written and published by GW is cannon and all cannon that has been retconned is invalid. Dark Heresy was orgianally written, designed and created by Games Workshop. It is specifically stated both by Alan Merrett in the forewards of DW and if you read the credits in Dark Heresy it was created by Black Industries a property of Games Workshop,with writers from Games Workshop,with oversight, control, and being published orginally by Games Workshop . It meets all the criterie you set forth in this very thread as being cannon. Unless you want to state that all cannon that is no longer published by gw is not cannon. Which in that case all those lovely quotes you drag up are not cannonical either. Any thing you disagree with in Dark Heresy is now unfortunately cannon by your own strict interpretation of cannon. So that does mean that sisters are armed with "civilian" bolters and Astartes are walking murder machines.

If you disagree please explain how something both published and written by GW is not cannon please go ahead. But remember it must be phrased in a way that allows for the codexs to be cannon or there is no cannon at all.

RogalDorn said:

No, it was written, designed and created by Black Industries. I know, I still have the first print.

RogalDorn said:

Uh, no. The publisher was Black Industries. There can't be two, just one is a subsidiary of the other. As far as the oversight (or lack thereof) and writer contribution is concerned, same goes for Black Library, and still the novels are not canon as far as GW seems to be concerned, and still you have tons of contradictions in there. Again: Multilasers.

RogalDorn said:

The WH Codex is still a valid and current resource, currently being downloadable on GW's official website.

In essence, your post is like GW = BL = BI, whereas I have argued that it's more like GW =/= BL/BI,/FFG/etc, including citations from both BL writers as well as the Head of Publishing to back up that claim. And given that the latter actually commented on the subject, he obviously has something to do with it. Likely because these are publications , and the fluff they delivered was put into question.

I hope this would suffice. Feel free to throw some quotes back at me, though.

Lynata said:

However, you selectively quoted, and that really undermines your citations in my mind; as it was a deliberately deceptive edit. Can we start either using the full text or adding sources? I've taken your citations as read until now, but I don't feel that I can really continue to do so if they're going to be trimmed to fit.

Gav Thorpe might be a major asset to GW, but he is not in charge of the 40k universe. What he has to say is and is not GW's canonical policy has little actual bearing. Mid-level non-executive employees do not make statements of company policy. Not unless they're reading it off a press release.

And yeah: I do believe that IG troops should (if not drafted in haste or desperation) be damned good. Certainly as good as any modern professional infantryman, and probably better in the cases where a mere 20,000 or so is skimmed off the top of a millions-strong PDF every 20 years. The fluff that portrays IG as incapable of loading their own las-rifles is quite laughable, bearing in mind that they've likely just spent at least a month in transit. What were they doing during that time? The fluff seems to always downplay IG and play up other factions. They get a fair crack in the novels at least. Yes: There are mistakes and there is stupid things, but even 'studio canon' conflicts mightily sometimes. Then what do you do? Do you accept the newest, or the one that fits your views?

The boltgun damage is the same in a high granulatity wargame. But we've done that before, so let's not go back there and move on: You certainly weren't talking about equipment when you [mis-]quoted; the inferrance of the quote was that SoBs were Astatres equal, and you strengthened that inferrence by your editing. I'm only picking the obvious flaw in the quote that was put in front of me.

Except the bits where we're repeatedly told that the Astartes are the finest troops in the Imperium, of course. Um... like right here, even (first thing I even looked at. Google-fu!): "The Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are Humanity's ultimate warriors, dedicated to the defence of the Emperor and the Imperium of Man. They are barely human at all, but superhuman, having been made superior, in all respects, to a normal man by a harsh regime of genetic modification, psycho-conditioning and rigorous training." Ultimate warriors, eh. Not 'oh, and the SoBs are pretty ultimate as well'. But of course, given the location of the quote it's not likely to say otherwise. However, I don't think anyone at GW would answer anything other than 'Astartes' if asked who the Imperium's ultimate warriors were supposed to be, canonically.

Interesting but not overly surprising. 40k is a poor wargame to my mind; mainly because of it's massively commercial nature and release schedule which actively drives poweer creep.

Lynata said:

Lynata said:

So your fundamental argument why its not cannon is that since bi is not technically GW (though for legal purposes it is, personnal purposes it is, and for being checked for cannon it logically is). Going by that logic there can be no cannon for Mechwarrior or Shadowrun because the company that publishes it does not own the property, just the license. Except that thats even more less likely to be cannon because there not owned by the parent company that owns the license. Its fundamentally irrational. It cannot be logically comparable to a novel because it contains crunch and rules of the setting. If you want to argue codex is cannon only go ahead but the latest space marine codex is newer then the sob codex and therefore that fluff overwrites its fluff.