Stormast said:

Meh. Some are so overpowered I'd not use them at all, some are absolutely useless, and the majority are group abilities which turn your character into a buffwh*re making the Marines even more powerful.

That's entirely a matter of preferences, of course. Personally, I rather dislike the idea of playing a "mage" and, correspondingly, did not feel tempted to pick up any of these talents yet (currently testing a BoM Sister, in retrospect I should've went with the IH one).

ak-73 said:

I have no words... :I

Thanks for correcting me.

(sidenote: Improvised Weapons really do 1d10-2; 1d5-2 was pure hand-to-hand, iirc, with brass knuckles providing 1d5-1)

ak-73 said:

Agree about everything. Most of my ramblings are really just nitpicking and wishful thinking a la "what could have been", including a greater compatibility between the systems. I still love the basic mechanics and, at least for now, it remains my favorite system (slightly ahead of the Dragon Age P&P, whose idea of "Dragon Dice" stunts is pure genious). I can get pretty enthusiastic, though, which occasionally has negative side-effects such as becoming obsessed with some idea or being way too easy to tempt into lenghty debates (as demonstrated).

Lynata said:

Yay! That should me some bragging rights with the guys around here. Just kiddin' of course.

Lynata said:

Yeah but considering what damage some of the melee weapons do, it better should be 1d5-2.

Lynata said:

Dragon Age P&P, you say? Hmmmm... I'll keep that at the back of my head. As for enthusiasm, no problem here, I'm a fairly enthusiastic fellow myself occasionally. It's just easy to lose track of the right direction to channel one's enthusiasm into. That should be character or plot development and proper staging. Everything else can be hand-waved on-the-fly if necessary.

Alex

++++ "what could have been"++++

Yeah, Deathwatch could have been awesome. They could have taken Marines up to modern standards of awesome, on a scale with video games and summer blockbusters. They could have finally made something that makes Marines live up to the dreams I've had for them since Rodney Clark brought in a copy of Rogue Trader on the first day of secondary school. A love letter to all the Space Marine fans out there who have made Games Workshop the success it is.

Marines could have been awesome. Legendary even. Instead they are just a bit meh.

Heh... Lynata, AK...

If there's one thing we can all agree on. It's that we don't agree with Aluminium Wolf.

Now to go back to resting my cramped up from assembling 10 Wyches joints... so I can go and assemble my 17 Reaver Jetbike riders.

Blood Pact said:

See Teddy allying with Stalin for details.

I would like to say, purely because there is no PM function (lame, by the way), that while I still find the separation of SM weaponry from mortal weaponry to be acceptable and logical (note they use the Godwyn Pattern and the Godwyn-De'az rather then the Mars-Beta now, so that piece of fluff is irrelevant), I would also just like to say that Lynata has only been aggressive in resply to, and to a lesser extent then, attacks on her. She's never been crude and always backed points up, so regardless of opinion, I actually read through every page.

I see your point, and while I stand in a different camp, I actually agree with you that this is a small blow to the SoB and a shame in that respect, but that I find the changes to be more positive then negative (flat multipliers notwithstanding).

@ AK-73

Bragging rights duly accorded. (and I mean NO slight to Lynata in doing so, she's so on to it that to get that reply from her deserves kudos)

@ Blood Pact

What's a Reaver Jet Bike Rider? I don't TT but they sound Cool! Is that Dark Eldar or something? My GM just won some Dark Eldar on hover-board thingys like Green Goblin from Spiderman and they look cool too, if rather easy to one shot I'd guess.

@ Lynata

Cool, calm, and collected as always. Even though you are a tenacious arguer you always remain polite, please take a bow (or curtsey as it may be).

@ Aluminium Wolf

Dude, did I read that right or did you typo? You think DW Marines aren't tough enough? Tough enough for what if I may be so bold?

(I'm genuinely interested to hear why, not looking for reasons to rage, I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that whatever makes you happy in your game is all good because this is an RPG and in my mind you should mix and match to get the game you really want to play and it doesn't bother me that FFG are trying hard to make as much cash as possible by selling as many different books as possible).

Zakalwe said:

Oh and no disrespect whatever towards Lynata was implied here. It was just a stupid joke.

Zakalwe said:

No, you read that right.

Alex

Lynata said:

Well I don't mind being the buffwh*re as long as the big guys are thankful. And they should, because if they're acting like I'm nothing, I'd surely forget to "buff" them one of these days. When the Chaos Sorcerer is unleashing the sh*tstorm. "Oopsies! Sorry guys, went AFK!"

Seriously though, it all depends on what you want to play. You have to come to terms with the fact that a SoB cannot compete with a Marine in terms of rough toughness and blind violence. What she can do, however, is play it a bit more on the clever side, do some manoeuvers the big tough guys would have much more problems to do. So you have to find your own place in the group, as always. It's like a Devastator complaining that he doesn't kick arses strong enough in Melee. Not his role, not what he can do best.

And if you do want to compete, then you'll have to pay for it, and surely it will be hard to match the big epic guys at it (see with the GM to get Unnatural Toughness as Elite Advance? ).

ak-73 said:

ak-73 said:

I would recommend trying it.

BangBangTequila said:

Otherwise I could agree that this may be a point of confusion whether a retcon has taken place or not, though there's still nothing in the studio material hinting at a notable difference. As I said, people that lug around heavy bolters should have little problem using something smaller. It just seems ... odd, unfounded and unnecessary - YMMV.

Zakalwe said:

What's a Reaver Jet Bike Rider? I don't TT but they sound Cool! Is that Dark Eldar or something?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1050230

They were pretty cool in DoW as well.

Stormast said:

What I argued for was a similarity in equipment (as clearly defined in the faction's currently valid Codex - some people in this thread should give it a read), which would make for more vulnerable characters, but who can at least be just as useful in ranged combat and thus be a valuable addition to a team instead of just being a drag.

In terms of toughness and melee, I would "just" think that unarmed specialization talents and Unnatural traits make for too extreme disparities (this is a problem not only with Marine characters), but differences must, of course, remain. After all, only the Astartes have received genetical modifications, and these are the aspects that set them apart, whilst still allowing for the "crossovers" we have read about so many times in the fluff.

Of course, said similarity should extend beyond just the Sisters, and be adjusted depending on the game you play. It would be just as wrong to just "buff" SoB equipment in general, recreating the same weirdness in Dark Heresy. Any character moving from DH/RT to DW should have the stats of his gear adjusted upwards, whilst any character moving from DW to DH or RT should have the equipment adjusted downwards.
Naturally, it would have been better if FFG would have just stuck with the Astartes equipment implemented by the first developer of the RPG, Black Industries (meaning AP8 armour and 2d10 boltguns), but it's far too late for that now. And, as mentioned, the change may have well been intentional to create a more "epic" game set apart from the mechanics of the other two.

My two Thrones.

Stormast said:

And if you do want to compete, then you'll have to pay for it, and surely it will be hard to match the big epic guys at it (see with the GM to get Unnatural Toughness as Elite Advance? ).

Besides, as a player, I would not want my character to be as tough; I would greatly prefer actually being able to support the other characters instead of my attacks having no effect, as the enemy NPCs will undoubtedly be scaled for DW mechanics.

Yeah the thing is you'll probably end up with that: when you take a DW character to the DH line, you keep everything in line except for his weapons, and get the stats for them in DH, the same for DH characters playing with Marines.

It sounds fair, and balanced in some way.

And I'd expect that a SoB who goes to fight alongside Astartes has the right to get very good quality weapons ,if not that would be silly. For the PA, it could be that she gets an "upgrade" (whatever it is, after all, just consider it her faith strenghtening the armor, it sounds a bit orc-ish, but hey, who cares ).

I understand the thing about "buffing", but quite frankly when Sisters go hunting the big bad Chaos Marines, I can't see why their ammo wouldn't get Felling (1) (or less precisely: why they wouldn't get the chance to get Astartes-like ammo, therefore reaching the efficiency Astartes weapons have).

Lynata said:

I actually think the difference is due to the black carapce mainly that it acts as a second set of armor underneath. Its essentailly subdermal implant beneath that skin with connector ports.

Stormast said:

Or why they wouldn't have it by default, considering they started out as Vandire's elite and the guy practically ran the Imperium. Or why there would actually have to be any difference at all, considering that we were fine without it for several decades.

Though I have to admit that the latter may also be a result of what feels like an "inflation" of bolt weaponry to me. Going by GW, bolt weapons are incredibly rare. The most you have in the Imperial Guard are pistols for Commissars and heavy bolters for support teams etc, though boltguns remain a purchasable wargear option for special characters. Yet in the RPG, these weapons have become far more common. Here, we even have PDF(!) troopers being issued boltguns by default. Under these premises, I can totally understand a perceived need to make proper "oldschool" bolters retain their special touch of rarity. This perception is not limited to the Astartes, though. I admit I was a bit disappointed to see the Godwyn-De'az appearing in BoM being nothing else than a good quality core rulebook standard bolter. I also did notice the "subtle" changes that FFG made to the Vestments page compared to their Codex original.

RogalDorn said:

Well, not the way it's worded in the books. And even if this were the case, it would have to be noted with the character, not the suit - as whilst he may sometimes not wear his power armour, he cannot take off his Black Carapace. The bonus would have to apply regardless of what he wears.

Otherwise there would indeed be armour implants: Rogue Trader has them, with +2AP for arms/body/legs and +1AP to the head. I've never heard of anything in the fluff suggesting a Black Carapace would have a similar function, though, only that it serves as an interface with the armour. Of course, Marines have hardened ribs et cetera, but these things are probably meant to be represented by the toughness modifiers.

Lynata said:

Thing is, though, silence from the studio on a given matter doesn't inherently signify "nothing has changed, carry on as usual" - afterall, there isn't actually any official published material stating that the Squats are extinct/never existed in the first place/have been replaced by the Demiurg (whichever option or options are most relevant)... GW just stopped producing material about them, and gave a few apocryphal responses of "they were eaten by Tyranids" when pressed on thed matter at events, etc.

Similar can be said of the Star Child/Illuminati concept - in official material, GW is silent on the matter, and have been for quite some time. And those two concepts aren't alone...

Changes to the setting can occur without ever being mentioned in a Codex or Rulebook, and writers all over the place can be told not to touch on certain material because GW no longer regards it as valid (it's happened to me a few times), yet nothing is ever published to demonstrate that viewpoint... there's simply silence on the matter.

This confuses things, as can be imagined, as it's very difficult to tell the difference between someone not saying anything because nothing's changed and them not saying anything because they've been told not to talk about it.

Understandably, and undoubtedly complicating matters. However, if there is no word about a change, why do people assume it? There's countless players on these forums talking of "canon" where it does not exist, yet apparently I'm the one who is wrong for sticking to something that has actually been printed, and still is a current resource, right now freely available for download from the GW website.

My personal modus operandi is that something remains valid until contradicted or negated - else, we would not only have to look for some sort of "rule" arbitrating how many years GW material remains official until it gets rendered void, and we would miss out on a ton of background information simply because it has not been reprinted in favor of more numbercrunch, or because a Codex has not received an update in years.

If GW says the homeworld of the Squats was eaten by 'nids (which was apparently their first explanation), then that is an official expansion of the background. If GW edits them out of older books altogether (which seems to be the current stance), then that is officially a retcon. Both cases do not constitute silence, and simply assuming a change and then going on to propagate it as fact when GW has never indicated it does not seem to be a good basis for discussion.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

But from a fan's perspective then the default assumption must be that silence means nothing has changed. Everything else would be totally arbitrary.

Alex

+++++Tough enough for what if I may be so bold?+++++

Tough enough to do what the fluff says they can, so a hundred Marines can conquer a world, or less than a million carve out an imperium of a million worlds in a few centuries. Tough enough that no Marine fan looks at a character from another property and thinks 'Man, I wish Space Marines were that cool'. Tough enough to live up to their reputation as the 'finest warriors in the universe'. Tough enough to go down in gamer folklore as being legendarily hard, so in years to come greying rpgers will whisper 'Man, those Space Marines were tough'.

These are Space Marines. They are far and away Games Workshops most popular creation. A lot of people love them.

Space Marines play on a larger battlefield than the other 40k factions. Their opponents are not Orks or Elves. They are instead up against Halo Spartans or Jedi Knights or the protagonist of the latest Summer Blockbuster movie.

It isn't how they stack up against Dark Heresy retards that matters. It is whether they can kick in Master Chief's teeth!

These are Space Marines. SPACE MARINES for heavens sake.

They should have done something special for the RPG.

Thanks for the input Aluminium Wolf, isn't it incredible how we can agree on so much in principle but it turns out to be completely different in application.

I think the space marines are awesome, and have since they were beakies, and you have raised an interesting starter for ten be comparing them to bad asses from other universes such as Halo. I personally never got the impression that the Halo marines were anywhere near as tough as space marines (though I never played Halo), but wouldn't be so sure about the Jedi (who in their universe are the finest warriors inthe galaxy, but don't get me wrong, i am NOT a Jedi lover. I put my faith in a trusty blaster rather than hokey religions any day).

I don't play the TT and haven't read the novels so my impression of space marines is still probably way too informed by first edition rogue trader, which I did have (might still be at mum and dad's actually) and it seems they haver become significantly more powerful since then.

But like I said, I'm an RPGer, and in an RPG you can have anything however it best suits the group. I might even read one of the novels one day.

Fact is there will be as many interpretations of what a space marine should be as there are fans, thanks for sharing yours.

Zakalwe said:

The power to destroy a planet is insignificant when compared to the powers of the Warp.

Zakalwe said:

In TT they still have the same stats as the WD updated 1E Marines (that means T4), no overwatch rules anymore though. GW has since then stated that the SM stats only reflect the needs of a tabletop game and that in their concept of the Astartes, they are much more powerful than reflected by those stats. Exact powerfuls vary by author and whether SM are main protagonists or not.

Alex

ak-73 said:

There's still common sense.

12 year old codices, and slap-dash White Dwarf articles should be seen as the unreliable sources they rightly are, even if they haven't been explicitely replaced.

Look at this thing that Lynata recently cited, about how Soriritas are supposedly responsible for hunting down renegade Space Marine Chapters... which is funny since they seemed to play absolutely no part in the Badab War, which involved something like 20 Astartes Chapters on the loyalist side. And also entirely made sense, cause Sisters really don't have anything going for them when it comes to facing Marines, even with the exact same equipment. Especially when there's only 30,000 of them (from a source I consider wholly useless).

Bloodpact, just as an aside that I truly mean as constructive criticism, though, as always, this is subject to taste: Try to be less accusatory and confrontational in your posting. Throughout the entirety of the fora on FFG, I have seen your posting as dismissive and arrogant. Whether or not you are right, and whether or not the person you are replying to is an utter imbecile, when you write a response that is aggressive and conflictive I care less about your points. You have on multiple occasions provided an insightful stance on the issue at hand, and it is a shame that many would dismiss them as "the ramblings of an angry jerk" simply because you cannot be bothered to be polite. This isn't an arguement, but a debate, and treating your opponents with respect means that topics can continue coming to a productive conclusion instead of degenerating into trolling and flame-wars.

Lynata: Vandire ran the Imperium, but the Astartes were the favourite sons of God, and that status was never lessened. They were more important then Vandire - or the Sororitas! - far before either came into existence, and they continued to be more important long afterwards. They bear the blood of the Emperor himself, and they can - Unarmoured and unarmed! - compete with almost anything seen by Man. The idea that Vandire could have procured equipment to equal the Astartes during his rule is not overly far-fetched, and I might even give you that (though, officially I do not, the physics don't back it up). The thought that he could assure they would always be supplied with equipment even after he died and became one of the most hated and/or reviled figures in Imperial history, however, is far more difficult to justify. Especially since the Mechanicus is famous for it's degree of separation from the Ecclesiarchy, and the entire weight of the Administratum was brought to bear against the Cult of the Emperor.

Additionally, you say the Sororitas have gear the equal of any of the Astartes chapters, but this is just not true. Where have you seen Sororitas equipped with forearm mounted Storm Bolters? How about Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers? Any sign of the Sororitas Dreadnoughts, or Land Raider Crusaders? No, because they don't get the same equipment, they get gear of similar value and functionality. Codices always play up the importance and power of the army listed. I seem to recall Shruiken weapons being called superior to any bolter, and yet in no stats are they actually superior (IIRC, subjective, I suppose, since 2 shots at 18" is better then 2 at 12", but worse then 1 at 24", and I unfortunately do not have Creatures Anathema on me at the moment to quote stats). If this claim of equality was supported by other official fluff (say, a Space Marine codex saying that the Astartes had equipment superior to any in the Imperium, with only the Sororitas able to match it) then I would agree this is a retcon in progress and objections are warranted. That said, I think that the only declaration of equality is that of the Sororitas Codex, and so the multiple sources stating otherwise (DH, DW, and supplements) take precedence over the single outdated source.

You have on multiple occasions said that while you bring officially sanctioned text from GW, your 'opponents' bring only theories and reasoning. My counterpoint is not that you're wrong - I agree, technically you're right - our theories and reasoning make sense of and justify the current and most recently published official material. They did not list the equipment you have cited (most noteably the Mars-beta) in the rule books, and this speaks of a retcon. The Power Armour mark that you listed as an example that SM Armour is not very thickly plated is not the currently listed mark in the DW core book (rather then Corvus, they use Aquila) - again a sign that the Sisters are not issued the same gear. You've said the only difference in weaponry is the amount of armour and sturdy construction, but that again makes it clear that the gear is not equal - one model is different. You've said that all bolts are .75 calibre, but let's face it, there are a hundred thousand worlds producing the weapons, and each does things differently. Additionally you've cited the Sacristan Bolt Pistol as an example that bolt weapons may be different, but it (a pistol) is more powerful then any non-Astartes bolt rifle. Both these points illustrate the unlikelyhood - damned near an impossibility! - of nobody producing weaponry in a league of it's own. The Astartes likely had their own weapon designs before and/or during the rise of the Sororitas, and even if they didn't they may very well have found or created their own afterwards. Their Boltguns are cited as "often hundreds of years old", which means they were made long after the age of Apostasy.

I can really sympathize about the blow to the Sororitas, but as unknownrelic said, this was done by the GW writers in a GW sanctioned series of rulebooks that all drive the wedge between the Astartes and everyone else deeper. Until this move is either declared invalid (unlikely) or changed (a subsequent official source is published stating otherwise) the only thing to do is embrace the change (or house rule it) and move on. The previous fluff doesn't apply because none of it mentions anything specific.

BangBangTequila said:

Thor's treaties, made before the creation of the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia VII, allowed Mechanicus supervision of all Ministorum forges and equipment maintenance facilities in the Convent Prioris in return for permanent loan of the machinery necessary to produce the power armour and bolters that Ecclesiarch Vandire had ordered built for his bodyguard. The Mechanicus agreed hastily, foreseeing a virtual stranglehold on the Ministorum's mechanical resources and intelligence.
They were mightily displeased when Thor later opened the Convent Sanctorum and transferred much of the Ecclesiarchy's technology facilities there, including the valuable Missionarus Galaxia technology purification centre, which oversees the investigation of equipment discovered by Explorator missions. Never on the best of terms, relations between the Mechanicus and the Ministorum were soured considerably by this development. Yet, the Mechanicus found it impossible to retract their commitments to provide weapons and armour, and on Thor's orders the Ecclesiarchy has since been relatively trustworthy in providing to the Mechanicus details of newly recovered technology.

As for the physics - which physics, exactly? At the end of the day, nobody here knows how much recoil a boltgun produces, or by what degree a suit of powered armour is able to lessen it. People just throw these arguments around as a means to discredit studio material which is yet to be invalidated (as it did happen with the squats, so it's not like GW would do nothing if it feels a need to change), simply because they want SoB equipment to be of a lesser quality. Wishful thinking doesn't make it any more true, though, regardless of how many times this is falsely proclaimed as fact.

What we do see is that there are obviously non-Marines able to use a heavy bolter solo, even (in rare cases) without power armour, and common sense dictates that such a weapon should be more difficult to control than a much smaller boltgun, not less. Yet this is conveniently ignored. This is tunnel vision, plain and simple.

BangBangTequila said:

BangBangTequila said:

In fact, if Codices always play up the importance and power of the army listed, how come that even the Space Marine one misses a line of how all their gear is better than anything anyone else could procure? (and to make matters worse, even calls the Marines "mortals" )

BangBangTequila said:

BangBangTequila said:

Funny fact: If you'd take the P&P's stats for Sororitas gear and convert them into the TT, you'd end up with a bunch of female Guardsmen in carapace.

Where did you get the idea that the comparison was meant in relation to the Corvus armour, by the way? The Space Marines' standard armour at the time of Codex release was the Aquila-pattern, so obviously it was this what it was compared against.

BangBangTequila said:

In a way, FFG's own rules are internally inconsistent, given that Horde rules circumvent this invulnerability, magically changing a single weapon type's damage depending on how many people are using it. This is extremely arbitrary, though I can see the narrative allure of such abstractions.

BangBangTequila said:

There's FFG's canon, and then there is what Games Workshop writes in its core and army books. Lots of people like the former, and for the most part, I do too (lots of authors wrote a large number of beautiful descriptions or came up with brilliant ideas). Yet that does not mean that I would have to swallow such obvious contradictions when they have a very negative effect on my perception of the setting - a perception that is the result of meticulous research over the span of about a decade (yes, I'm a canon nut, regardless of franchise). And one that I believe will prevail once the upcoming Codex sees release.

Also, apparently the Deathwatch playtesters from the Bolter & Chainsword forum specifically got told that "it's only canon for the RPG", so ... play your games how you like it, but I would submit that it is misleading to claim these differences to be fact. Can't we come to some sort of agreement here?

I did not hold the SM Codex up as the one true canon at all, I simply asked for other sources that agreed with the Sororitas Codex. This is not tunnel vision, it's asking for any more recent canon to support the older (and now changed via DW) canon. It doesn't help that there are so many examples of superior equipment that the Sororitas do not have. The fact that only the Sororitas mention their equipment being the equal of SM chapters smacks of an individual codex inaccurately boasting it's own strength, something done in every one I've read. Equal is not exactly the same, 1 + 2 equals but is not 3, it's 1 + 2.

You are also conveniently ignoring that, power armour or not, a SM is several times stronger and more powerful then a normal human. Additionally they weigh as much as 5x as much, with bones of adamantium. A 500 kg frame of literally the same material as power armour with equal or greater strength then a power armoured person (disputable, but by DW mechanics fairly hard to deny - not saying Unnatural Characteristics are good) has dramatically more control over recoil then a PA wearing person weighing a total of 200 kg. So it makes sense he'd be able to fire the weapon, it would just bruise his shoulder like a fiend, which wouldn't hamper a monstrous super-human at all, one would imagine.

Please stop using the heavy bolter as an example. It's not a valid comparison because of the mechanics of firing and design. A hip-fired, braced heavy weapon is designed and used in a completely different way then a shoulder-braced personal battle rifle, and saying because they can use one they can use the other is incorrect.

You used the Corvus Pattern cross-section as an example of how thin the actual plating on SM armour is. This example is invalid as that is no longer Space Marine armour.

It is, however, now fact that the Astartes have better gear. As of the moment FFG published Dark Heresy, Astartes weaponry became a cut above the Sororitas. Just because we choose to justify it with non-canon speculation while you use a source that has now been over-ridden by Blood of Martyrs. It is not our 'wishful thinking' it is official canon, unlike BL materials. Maybe this will pass, but three separate (though interwoven) games all reinforce this gap. You have no canon that says the Sororitas have Godwyns, Mini-Aquila Armour, or any other piece of standard issue SM gear - therefore it is not equal.

One last thing to keep in mind before I let this debate die (or at least my involvement) as an agreement to disagree: I'm not a Space Marine fan. They're cool, but I play Orks, Eldar, and Necrons. I don't think they're the greatest warriors in the Universe, just the Imperium. I do, however, think they are supposed to be a cut above everyone else, and you don't put your best player in the third line. They've always had the best of the best of the best. Training, ships, vehicles, weapons, armour, everything. There are more sources saying this then there are saying the Sororitas have the best, and despite your insistence that it is nothing more then 'musings' I have a background in physics and (to an extent) ballistics, and it does not add up that they could use weapons of the same raw power. Disagree if you like, but the rules have been made, the canon superceded multiple times.

Again, I compliment you on your keeping this a debate despite attempts to drive into dismissable, rude flaming. Courtesy costs nothing, something seemingly forgotten these days. Additionally, I respect canon-buffs like yourself, you do nothing but enrich the community.

BangBangTequila said:

So, whilst DH, DW, IH and BoM did change how things run in the RPG's own little universe, it has no effect beyond that. I am advocating a position where those who prefer GW's universe can stick to it, and where the RPG's stats are recognized as but one interpretation of many. Just like, you could say, the new optional stats for DW are another interpretation. The three RPG lines use (in addition to a different theme/scope) very different mechanics each, thus it should be clear that there are a compatibility issues anyways.

BangBangTequila said:

BangBangTequila said:

Studio material is silent about this, whereas the "extended" canon (BL/BI/FFG books, comics, etc) has, again, multiple interpretations:

• Boltguns have almost no recoil at all
• Boltguns have remarkable recoil, so better use single shots only, unless you are a Space Marine or are augmented with bionics/PA/etc
• and then, as of this RPG, two classes of cal .75 boltguns, one where recoil is not an issue, and one you better not touch at all

Also, the 2E Space Marine Codex states (in a short fluff blurb on one of the last pages) that the Ultramarines let children fire their bolters to see who is worthy of being recruited and who is not. Those who are not injured get taken into the Chapter. So ... yeah, again, Games Workshop does not think there has to be a difference. Only some individual licensee authors do, depending on their personal preference, and clearly contradicting what studio material states.

BangBangTequila said:

If someone happens to be able to fire a heavy weapon out of his hip, this means he has to have remarkable constitution (though it would still negatively affect his aim). And though this is mere theory, I am pretty sure that a heavy bolter's discharge would exert more kinetic force than a small bolt pistol (which uses the same ammunition as a boltgun). Else you'd quite simply have more Guardsmen fire them from their hips instead of lugging them around with two people and a tripod.

BangBangTequila said:

BangBangTequila said:

BangBangTequila said:

I always thought their supernatural strength and toughness and their experience - which (aside from their tactics) are the things that really set them apart on the TT as well - would be enough. Of course, tastes differ.

BangBangTequila said:

Case in point: Rhinos, Land Raiders, Terminator armour, ... and yes, bolt weapons.

BangBangTequila said:

Let me finish with another quote:

"If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books."
- Gav Thorpe

Suggested Stats

Godwyn-De’az Pattern Bolter Basic 90m S/2/4 1d10+7 X 4 30 Full Reliable, Tearing 11 kg 10,000 Very Rare

A real killer in any DH game, a bit weak in any DW game, can manage with mighty shot and specialty ammo. Best fitting for RT probably. Accordingly:

Godwyn-De’az Storm Bolter Basic 90m S/2/4 1d10+7 X 4 60 2 Full Reliable, Tearing, Storm 20 kg 23,000 Very Rare

Same as above only doubly so.

Heavy Bolter (Custom Pattern) Heavy 120m –/–/6 2d10+4 X 5 60 2 Full Reliable, Tearing 50kg 18,000 Very Rare

All these require special training to use without penalty due to unusual size/recoil/whatever. The SoBs of course do not recieve this penalty because they have been trained in the use of these weapons. Training is available to special imperial personnel as Inquisitors too.

Alex

AluminiumWolf said:

Space Marines do fight Orks and Eldar- all the time. And, as everyone who is familiar with SM history knows, they occasionally loose. While they are the elite of the Imperium, Space Marines don't exist solely to fight Boss Monsters. And even in the video games (how they can be considered by some people to be more canon than the tabletop game- the core of the 40K universe, around which all else is suplemental- I'll never understand...) Space Marines can't kill Boss Monsters with a single pull of the trigger, which was commonplace with the original weapon stats.