500!

Ha!

Alex

bogi_khaosa said:

No that's not the reason Lynata went on at length about Space marines and their disparities. You'd really have to read Lynata diatribes on the subject but the essence of it boils down to the weapons have a huge disparity (less so now i think, thank you FFG) and they should not and that Unnatural Stats greatly skew as well. I don't necessarily agree on all points (at least now) but I understand her misgivings.

@Blood Pact: Lynata is well-informed

"Oh... did we mention Grey Knights? The Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay community has had a lot of fun taking up the mantle of a Deathwatch Space Marine, and now they get the chance to take on the role of a Grey Knight. Daemon Hunter presents rules compatible with Dark Heresy for both PC and NPC Grey Knights. There are also additional rules and advice for including Grey Knights in a campaign using the Deathwatch Rulebook instead."

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp

@Lynata: I really didn't like one guy living in the warp. It's like: if one guy can do, so can others and then it should actually just a matter of time until you can conquer the warp. In theory. It just detracts in my eyes from the uninhabitable, inhospitable nature of the warp greatly. Dreadknights are not my style, most of the rest from what little I have seen or heard seems okay.

andrewm9 said:

I think though that Lynata brings forth some excellent arguments instead and is rather the target of diatribes than the source.

Alex

Blood Pact said:

YMMV, of course. It's not like it is a problem for DW, where, as I said, this actually serves the game's scope well. It does, however, make for poor crossovers, which is what the current discussion is about (I think).

Blood Pact said:

Blood Pact said:

Of course, this discrepancy that existed in the rules also forced FFG to move the Deathwatch RPG further away from the studio canon, where Kill Teams were frequently accompanied by Ordo Xenos Inquisitors. But as you said, with the current P&P rules, I guess they'd just slow the Marines down now. Then again, lots of people seemed to really like the Deathwatch becoming detached from the Ordo Xenos, so I guess it's just another case of serving the targeted playerbase.

bogi_khaosa said:

I suspect the real reason is that one particular person is really really upset that her Sister of Batlle is weaker than a Space Marine and will never ever be able to tag along on a Deathwatch adventure as a combat-capable equal (*sob*) -- which is exactly as it should be. Because, next to Marines (and Temple Assassins and suchlike), Sisters suck. Deal with it.

In some way, I can understand it. After all, it would affect the representation of their favorite faction, which is the very same reason for why I am occasionally taking the plunge here to point out that there was "something else" in the fluff.

Pretty sure most people argueing this way don't even know there was a Sister beating up a Hive Tyrant single-handedly. In close combat. And this is from GW's own material, not some licensee novel or comic which seems to form the basis of the ongoing one-sidedness.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not argueing just for Sisters, but for all normal humans. See the Gaunt's Ghost remark above. I for one think it is sad that the way the systems are currently set up make crossovers so hard to pull off. It makes a lot of interesting stories or constellations difficult to "imitate".

And @ "#500"

The issue is moot. I understand the desire to want to run the games parallel to each other, but DH and DW just won't mesh like all of you are discussing. You could bring a Space Marine into a DH Ascension Game ( a la' Kill Marine) or you could let DW player take on the role of a Throne Agent, but it doesn't matter. Space Marines are meant to be more physically powerful than any other human. Their weapons hurt more because they are better crafted. Their promethium DOES burn hotter because it's purer than others'. They are the Emperor's chosen.

This is not to discount the importance of the Inquisition. Space Marines are powerful, but subtlety is not what they do. The Inquisition is quiet, and what most Throne Agents can accomplish in an investigation, Space Marines would never be able to achieve. Also, in DH, it's kind of okay to voice your opinion. I would think that in DW, giving your Watch Captain a piece of your mind may get you beaten, if not shot for insubordination. I think being an agent of the Inquisition is much cooler than being a Space Marine. I like the espionage and detective work inherent to the theme. I like the idea of pulling yourself out of the mire of normal humanity and becoming something better. That's a lot of fun. However, there is something to be said for having the strength to dismember a Grox while barehanded. There's a scale of EPIC in DW's form and theme that's almost Biblical.

If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about Space Marines having Unnatural Characteristics. It really doesn't matter that much. Yes, they can take a lot of punishment, but Tyranids and Tau dish a lot more. I wouldn't want to place any DH character against a horde of Hormagaunts. None of them would last long.

Benjimus Prime said:

See, that's just it, this is contradicting the studio canon. The whole "issue" (as I see it) would not exist if the RPG would stay closer to it.

Yet, as I said, I can perfectly understand why some players may prefer to play a more "legendary" game, and part of me is even inclined to agree. The problem of this community is that other careers may have just as much a "right" to join in as Marine characters could also play a grittier game using DH rules. Which may be what the GKs in Daemon Hunter end up to do. We'll see.

In essence, DH and DW are just like two novels written by different authors. And just like in the novels, the heroes simply seem to be more powerful in one than in the other. Nothing more, nothing less.

Lynata said:

You know what? I'd love to play Rogue-Trader-era Marines in a DH campaign. Beakies! Ex-criminals! Field police! That would rock.

Alex

In the mean time...

Aren't there Unnatural Characteristics in DH?

In my group, we played with an Inquisitor (he received the same amount of XP as we did so began already as an Ascended character) in power armor, and although he kinda felt squishy compared to us, it was part of the fun. It was our duty to protect him, and that implied taking hits we would have avoided otherwise (I once charged a Chaos Marine in order to not let him reach the Inquisitor, and ended up nearly dead just because I was rolling sh*t, great time ). But to tell the truth, the big difference was that he soaked 4 damage less than us, more or less. So he wasn't that far behind...

As for weapons, I'll stand by the actual optional rules. Astartes weapons hurt more because they are bigger, and that's more or less canon, at once. Where you need two Imperial Guardsmen to handle a Heavy Bolter, an Astartes can carry it alone. So you see that individual weapons must be downsized, so I don't mind them doing a bit less damage.

Stormast said:

Yep! I admit I dislike them regardless of the system or character. It just doesn't strike me as a very smart way to do things. Perhaps I'm "tainted" by similar mechanics seriously screwing the mechanics in other games, but I find "flat" modifiers (+X) way more predictable and thus less liable to result in weird situations. Though even those are tricky enough as soon as it comes to stacking bonuses

Stormast said:

In my group, we played with an Inquisitor (he received the same amount of XP as we did so began already as an Ascended character) in power armor, and although he kinda felt squishy compared to us, it was part of the fun. It was our duty to protect him, and that implied taking hits we would have avoided otherwise (I once charged a Chaos Marine in order to not let him reach the Inquisitor, and ended up nearly dead just because I was rolling sh*t, great time ). But to tell the truth, the big difference was that he soaked 4 damage less than us, more or less. So he wasn't that far behind...

See, that's exactly what I would want to see in crossover games! Just that said Inquisitor should also be useful by supporting the other characters with firepower of his own (that said, Ascension Inquisitors can be psychic, so that's at least one way to be valuable).

Stormast said:

Of course, this argument becomes moot as soon as you have bulky Guardsmen or people in power armour carry the same heavy bolter solo as well. Aside from DW boltguns being better than the DH heavy bolter either way, even with the optional rules. A weapon that is smaller, has less weight, and fires smaller caliber projectiles, being more devastating. And for some reason, someone who can wield the heavier gun suddenly has insurmountable issues carrying the smaller. Just doesn't add up. Hence me calling shenanigans.

Aside from there having been boltgun patterns that were issued to both the Sororitas as well as the Astartes. I'm sure that's something else many people don't know.

Astartes weapons are often bigger because they feature additional slabs of armour that make the gun tougher to survive the extreme combat situations the Marines deploy in. This doesn't change their muzzle size. Bigger doesn't always mean "more firepower" - similar to how Marine armour being bulkier isn't because it has so much plating but because it features a ton of additional internal systems.
It just seems that many people only think about the two most obvious aspects - firepower and protection - when looking at the equipment, not at other advantageous parts that make it larger. This is too simplistic. I mean, going by studio canon, Sororitas power armour confers the same degree of armoured protection as the Marine suits, yet look at how much smaller it is. So obviously the origin of the massive size has to be somewhere else. I submit that it's the same with Astartes weaponry ... where the additional armour plating of the guns (and the magazines!) is even mentioned in this very RPG.

Also, 2.1 meters (including power armour) isn't that much larger than Imperial standard.

@ Blood Pact and AK-73.

Admonishment acknowledged.

I have broken my personal rules by engaging in nerd rage when I am only here to enhance my Dark Heresy game and give a little back to the community where I feel I can help. I try to ensure my input is always well thought out and adds value (even if only for humour value), and where appropriate I back it up with my (modest but real) knowledge of physics. But hey, I admit, I have committed the dreaded nerd rage, and obviously I haven't been helpful this time.

No more rage from me, but please just consider the following. It is probably much more helpful than my previous rant.

• What delivers more kinetic energy, a speeding bullet or a 110kg prop-forward making a spear-tackle? (or for the rest of the world think of a big athletic meat axe sprinting up and taking you down hard without breaking stride).
• If every action has an equal and opposite reaction (at the mechanical level) then surely even though the shooter experiences as much force as the target the shooter does not die because they do not receive the trauma that the traget does. (shooter actually recieves more energy than the target if you consider velocity drop off for air resistance)

These illustrate why I say it is not the kinetic energy doing the killing. The kinetic energy gives the projectile or fist what it needs to overcome inertia (fist on skull) or resistance (bullet penetrating target) and the resulting displacement of physical matter results in trauma. If it was the kinetic energy doing the killing then the rugby field would be littered with corpses before half time (which is why we call it Rugby and not Blood Bowl, heh).

Zakalwe said:

Quick point here:

A Pistol or a rifle has a Recoil spring and is Gas operated (a Majority of them). Thus as the propellent propels the round down the barrel, the spring absorbs the force and allows the bolt to slide back, thus ejecting the round from the chamber. After that the spring pops back, using its built up potential energy, pushing the bolt back. Also at this time (in an AK-47 and M-16) the gas travels down the barrel behind the bullet to a small hole and some of it goes back down the hole and tube to end up pushing the bolt back into place along with the Spring. As the bolt slides home, a small claw grabs the next bullet and pulls it into the chamber.

That is the reason your shoulder or hand is not damaged, along with the fact that much of the potential energy from the bullet is focused on a small surface area. The butt of a rifle or hand grip is a much larger surface area and much of the energy that would cause harm is actually used to reload the weapon.

Thank you for your time.

@ Ranek7212 you said:

"A Pistol or a rifle has a Recoil spring and is Gas operated (a Majority of them). Thus as the propellent propels the round down the barrel, the spring absorbs the force and allows the bolt to slide back, thus ejecting the round from the chamber. After that the spring pops back, using its built up potential energy, pushing the bolt back. Also at this time (in an AK-47 and M-16) the gas travels down the barrel behind the bullet to a small hole and some of it goes back down the hole and tube to end up pushing the bolt back into place along with the Spring. As the bolt slides home, a small claw grabs the next bullet and pulls it into the chamber."

Indeedy (skite time) I was the fastest at field stripping and reassembling a Styer-AUG while blindfolded in my recruit intake, so I know how the bits go together and what makes 'em tick. To enhance my example please consider a bolt action rifle.

And you said:

"That is the reason your shoulder or hand is not damaged, along with the fact that much of the potential energy from the bullet is focused on a small surface area. The butt of a rifle or hand grip is a much larger surface area and much of the energy that would cause harm is actually used to reload the weapon".

On which we agree completely. Referring to said bolt action rifle with no moving parts the shooter still gets as much kinetic energy, but because that energy is spread the weapon does not (overcome resistance and) penetrate the shoulder. Same ammount of kinetic energy, less trauma. Because the energy of the bullet is so focussed it overcomes rsistance and penetrates, displacing tissue and causing trauma.

Pretty good at stripping assault rifle thingys, but still can't work the quote thingy.

Not using the quote thingy is heresy

ZAP ZAP ZAP!

ak-73 said:

Like I said, I don't think there will be many differences. There'll be some additional stuff, but I still think that Grey Knights will pretty much be rolled up like a DW character, with Unnatural stats, and the same Bolters that DW uses too. The DH version will probably just be pared down from what is to be found for DW.

As for the guy who's living in the Warp. He's not really just anyone. He is one of the most powerful psykers in existence. And he's not really flourishing there, so much as surviving.

Blood Pact said:

And still. It's like - hey why not invite Tigurius and Mortarion for a tea party. I'd rather have kept the warp free from real worlders. But that's a matter of taste, I guess.

Alex

Lynata said:

Stormast said:

Aren't there Unnatural Characteristics in DH?

Yep! I admit I dislike them regardless of the system or character. It just doesn't strike me as a very smart way to do things. Perhaps I'm "tainted" by similar mechanics seriously screwing the mechanics in other games, but I find "flat" modifiers (+X) way more predictable and thus less liable to result in weird situations. Though even those are tricky enough as soon as it comes to stacking bonuses

Stormast said:

In my group, we played with an Inquisitor (he received the same amount of XP as we did so began already as an Ascended character) in power armor, and although he kinda felt squishy compared to us, it was part of the fun. It was our duty to protect him, and that implied taking hits we would have avoided otherwise (I once charged a Chaos Marine in order to not let him reach the Inquisitor, and ended up nearly dead just because I was rolling sh*t, great time ). But to tell the truth, the big difference was that he soaked 4 damage less than us, more or less. So he wasn't that far behind...

See, that's exactly what I would want to see in crossover games! Just that said Inquisitor should also be useful by supporting the other characters with firepower of his own (that said, Ascension Inquisitors can be psychic, so that's at least one way to be valuable).

Stormast said:

Astartes weapons hurt more because they are bigger, and that's more or less canon, at once. Where you need two Imperial Guardsmen to handle a Heavy Bolter, an Astartes can carry it alone.

Of course, this argument becomes moot as soon as you have bulky Guardsmen or people in power armour carry the same heavy bolter solo as well. Aside from DW boltguns being better than the DH heavy bolter either way, even with the optional rules. A weapon that is smaller, has less weight, and fires smaller caliber projectiles, being more devastating. And for some reason, someone who can wield the heavier gun suddenly has insurmountable issues carrying the smaller. Just doesn't add up. Hence me calling shenanigans.

Aside from there having been boltgun patterns that were issued to both the Sororitas as well as the Astartes. I'm sure that's something else many people don't know.

Astartes weapons are often bigger because they feature additional slabs of armour that make the gun tougher to survive the extreme combat situations the Marines deploy in. This doesn't change their muzzle size. Bigger doesn't always mean "more firepower" - similar to how Marine armour being bulkier isn't because it has so much plating but because it features a ton of additional internal systems.
It just seems that many people only think about the two most obvious aspects - firepower and protection - when looking at the equipment, not at other advantageous parts that make it larger. This is too simplistic. I mean, going by studio canon, Sororitas power armour confers the same degree of armoured protection as the Marine suits, yet look at how much smaller it is. So obviously the origin of the massive size has to be somewhere else. I submit that it's the same with Astartes weaponry ... where the additional armour plating of the guns (and the magazines!) is even mentioned in this very RPG.

Also, 2.1 meters (including power armour) isn't that much larger than Imperial standard.

Sapce marines are much taller than 6.6 feet tall. There more like 8 feet tall according to canon. Once again if people want to see arguments for both sides why a boltgun damage should be affected by size please go through this monster of a topic were arguments get brought up on both sides.

RogalDorn said:

Jes Goodwin disagrees, and his statement of 7 feet translates to exactly 2.1336 meters. Which is reflected in GW's Codices, which I perceive as the "true canon" as opposed to conflicting licensee interpretations. Yet, even the Deathwatch RPG book clearly says "slightly over 2.1 meters" (see page 28). I have no idea what sort of "canon" people pull numbers like 8, 10 or even 11 feet from, but I guess it must be one of those novels.

In the end, I suppose the entire weapon discussion can be summed up as:

• Do you want to play in the setting as defined by Games Workshop? or
• Do you want to play in the setting as interpreted by FFG? or even
• Do you want to play in the setting as interpreted by [insert novel / computer game of your choice]

So there really is nothing to argue. It comes down to this simple choice. Unsurprisingly, I gravitate towards the first option, as it is what I've grown up with for almost a decade before this RPG was released. I also think that this would be better for crossovers, yet as it would "hurt" the perception/preference of some players that Space Marines have to be leagues apart from anybody else in every possible regard I do understand that this creates a conflict of interests.

Here's an interesting thread from the DakkaDakka-forums discussing the different appearances of Marine heights in various GW and licensee sources, by the way: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/331843.page - note the small list about halfway on page #4.

Lynata said:

go to google type in 2.1 meters you will not get 7 feet. You will with 2.1336 however you can't round down when converting meters to feet because of the disparity between them there is a difference of 4 inches. Which for height purposes is substantial. And in the poll you bright up they lowest figure you cna pick is 9 unarmored. And if I remember correctly it was in a comparison to how space marines are taller than orks when their hunched over but then an Ork stands up the nobs or regular orks don't remember which are taller than space marines

And if I recall the argument you tried to pick out things in the codex as being internally incosistent. People corrected you. Then you claimed that the caliber of the bullet is all that matters when it comes to weapon damage. People pointed out that 1. bolters are not bullets there mini-rpgs so length matters as much as diameter, second amount of propellant makes a huge difference see 50 cal in a desert eagle compared to 50 cal in a machine gun or sniper rifle. You bring up archaic fluff to back up your point. People point out that techincally the ffg is canon you disagree because you disagree and try to compare how star wars manages their cannon to how gw does. People bring up that GW has never aknowledged or maintained that lair of seperation. And then you go back to your argument about realism and in a giant circle the argument went. Which is why you probably shouldn't have brought it up again because it will just lead to another argument with noone willing to concede their point.

Lynata said:

Except they're not able to throw rocks which do more damage than a plasma gun, so stop treating me, and everyone else here, like we're complete idiots. I'm not even going to further dignify that comment by rebutting it with the actual stats. And larger steps and leaps? I'm sorry, but were you planning on throwing hordes of Nobs or Warbosses at your Kill-Teams (and have you finally gotten around to reading the book yet?), because they're the only ones who will have Unnatural Strength. And it would come as no surprise to any 40K player that Nobz and Warbosses are both very strong types of Ork. Armour and weapons are just fine for Space Marines too, their equipment is meant to be better and it should come as absolutely no surprise that it is, because they're the ******* elite of the Imperium of Man, and will be given the first pick because of it. It's one of the perks of being the Emperor's 'grandchildren'.

Lynata said:

In no particular order... The leader died from numerous poisoned quarrels being shot in to his head. One died from Gaunt's power sword (which would probably be a Relic). One was blown up by 6 tube-charges going off all at once (frag grenades?). One had the magazine of his own bolter emptied in to his head. And the last was shot point blank in the head by Rawne, with Larkin's Longlas (critical?).

The Longlas and Gaunt's kills are a bit iffy, but all in all I'd say they were well within the realm of possibility for Gaunt and his people.

Lynata said:

That you can't wrap your head around that is your problem, not mine and not the game's. That you couldn't possibly concieve that there would be different makes and models of bolters and plasma guns, and whatever... And that Space Marines would get the best of it is a problem with you Lynata. Because you cling to some of the most absolutely absurd beliefs on these boards. This very post is an excellent example, a quick-fix list from a White Dwarf is something you're taking as cold hard canon fact, and that FFG is 'changing' things by freeing them from the stupid idea that a bunch of Space Marines need an Inquisitor to babysit them. Three pages in a WD is suddenly the gospel is it? This along with the dogmatic adherence to everything printed in the 12+ year old Sisters Codex is really just getting silly.

Lasguns were never meant to be a serious threat to a Space Marine except en masse. The whole ultimate warriors of humanity thing just becomes a bunch of bull PR when you make it so that regular humans a serious threat to them. You always say you're not basing things off the tabletop stats, and that you know they're not a good basis, but time and time again you turn around and talk about regular people hurting space marines, and how all bolters and plasma guns and power armour are the same (just because they are on the TT)...

ak-73 said:

I think she does too... And then there's her posts about Space Marines, where she just goes right off the deep end.

You really should read the previous pages of this thread again, because you'll find the whole original conversation about why Space Marines had better bolters consisted of me and others trying to explain why they might deserve those better stats (composition, velocity, etc.). And her completely ignoring everything we said and making the same **** complaints over, and over... and over.

She's rude, outright false sometimes, makes absurd arguements other times, and displays some of the worst sorts of forum behavior you can ever find, and I grind my teeth whenever someone acts like she's one of the best people on these forums, blatantly ignoring the evidence to be found in threads like this one, just because she isn't agonizing to deal with when the subject isn't Space Marines and their weapons.

It's just plain ******* insulting for those of us who've had to deal with her grief.

Lynata said:

Speaking of insulting, this constant attitude that Space Marines were made better than they 'really' were, I feel like I'm being told, "It's alright that you had to make **** up so your game would be awesome enough for you..."

As if someone at GW decided Lynata was to be the authority on canon around here.

Zakalwe said:

What's easier to drive in to a wooden board? The point of a nail, or the head?

Of course how the kinetic energy is being transmitted makes a big difference, I never claimed it didn't either. But as I said before, a Space Marine's fist is not a human's fist. It probably feels more like someone is hitting you with a sledgehammer than a punch. And would do commessurate damage. That they're not primitive isn't a big deal, no matter what some people keep going on about like the sky is falling.

And now that I've said my piece, I'll bid you all adieu from this.. septic tank of a thread.

RogalDorn said:

RogalDorn said:

RogalDorn said:

And as a final proof: here is a photo of said lifesize official GW drawing, complete with scale.
(oh yeah, before anybody gets confused - note that for some reason the scale starts at 1, not 0)

RogalDorn said:

What is inconsistent is the books that Marine fans bring up as their "evidence". Even this very RPG has Astartes boltgun damage happily jumps from 2d10 to 2d10+5 and then to 1d10+9. I have yet to see anyone invalidate GW Codices, though.

I also never stated that caliber is "all that matters", I have repeatedly pointed out it's the same for everyone's gun - which means the exact same barrel size, even if the Astartes bolter would be 10 times bigger (which seems to be people's main idea for why they would absolutely need to do more damage). And whilst it is true that length matters as well, I have yet to see anyone back up the logical conclusion that the sides of Astartes magazines are somehow much longer than those of pure humans. Note that a Marine couldn't even grasp the magazine if it would be so much larger, especially given that the mag's additional armour plating further limits the space that could be used for longer projectiles.

Aside from that, we actually do have images of how Astartes bolt rounds look like (even in the Deathwatch RPG), and given how short these are I don't see what should keep ordinary humans from using them. And don't even mention recoil. We're talking two-stage hybrid-gyrojets here. And non-Astartes utilizing heavy bolters without a bipod/tripod.

RogalDorn said:

Oh, yes, there are also some Black Library books, but if we really want to go there I have some of my own collection to contradict them. There's a reason for why Gav Thorpe clearly stated GW doesn't take whatever BL comes up with as binding.

The problem is that people pick and choose what they want to roll with. I "picked and chose" GW, so in a way this goes for me as well. But if you go and pick something else than GW, please don't say it's canon. It's a flawed interpretation that breaks with the original rules for the setting. Enjoy your game the way you want - even with 3 meter tall Marines if you will - but please do not mislead others into thinking that this is how it's supposed to look like by the original creators.

RogalDorn said:

This is all we really argue about. I only wish people would stop proclaiming that this difference is "the real deal" beyond this game. Because every time this is stated it's a slap in the face for the Imperial Guard, the Sisters, the Inquisition and whoever else could otherwise get their hands on comparable equipment. Expand your horizons.

Can't we agree on that?

...

Blood Pact said:

"If the object hits a hard surface such as a wall, it takes 1d10+SB Damage plus one for every Degree of Success on the test. [...] If the object is being thrown at a specific target, it is treated as an improvised weapon and the throwing character makes a Ballistic Skill Test instead of a Strength Test."

1d10-2+SB = 1d10+8 (assuming an average Marine SB of 10) compared to 1d10+6 of a DH plasma pistol... +2 means it does more damage.

Blood Pact said:

To quote somebody else: "Despite what the fanboys claim, Marines don't always get the best, and even in cases where they do, it doesn't mean they're the only ones that get it."

Well, except in this RPG, obviously.

Blood Pact said:

Blood Pact said:

Blood Pact said:

As for the "PR bull": I'm inclined to say "Welcome to the world of marketing", but I feel obliged to point out, once again, that weapon stats are not everything. I'm not going to give you the long list of the other areas of where Marines are so much better at again, but apparently, thousands of tabletop players, over the course of several decades, had no problem at all with "just" being 33% tougher than other human armies, and having equipment superior to most of their units.

So where does this sudden inflation come from? This drive to shred the last vestiges of semi-compatibility to other characters, sacrificing a few important basics of the setting as well as the chance for doable crossovers in favor of absolute Movie Marine superiority, which in the end really means nothing as you end up all on your own on your little Olymp?

Then again, you have made it abundantly clear that you simply, shall we say, "dislike" the SoB (yes, I have seen these comments), so I suppose it is small wonder that you are supporting a way of getting rid of a "rival" which has, on some sectors, been an equal for way too many years for your taste.

Blood Pact said:

I have no interest of going into a flame war with you, so I'll hold back on returning any of the insults I got to hear from you over the course of our debates.

Lynata said:

Your orginal post said 2.1 which is a substantial difference in inches. I'm 6'3' I have a friend whose 6'6' there is a very noticable difference in height between us.

RogalDorn said:

Ah, yes, I had edited it - I guess you must have quoted me just after I had inserted the exact number, but without noticing the change. But still, 3cm more or less should not make much of a difference.

Either way, no harm intended. You do have a right demanding more accuracy, after all it is me who is argueing the point. Can we agree on 2.13m, or 213cm? I think this is the form in which such measurements are commonly given.

Lynata said:

I'm fine with 7 feet out of power armour and like 7'2' in. As they mention Ogryns being taller.

Well, it says with armour (and looks like on the drawing) - but still, individual Marines can be taller (or smaller) than this, so even if you'd want to stick by what is written in the Codices, and in this case also the Deathwatch rulebook, it does not mean that your character has to stick to it. This possibility is actually specifically mentioned in DW.

In fact, one could even theorize that the average within the Deathwatch could be a bit higher, given that they take the best of the best - and height could be seen as an indication of a larger, thus stronger / more resilient build, in turn making one more likely for selection...

It likely also depends on the individual Chapter's geneseed quality, progenitor and recruitment worlds! I would not be surprised at all to have one Chapter sporting particularly large Marines whilst another has ones which are smaller. Depending on the Chapter's preferred tactics, that could be beneficial. Smaller people do have an advantage in urban combat situations, for example. Not that I believe there are "dwarf" Marines out there, but even 10-20 cm can make a difference, though they'd still tower over the vast majority of normal humans.

3 cm really isn't a big deal though :/

As for the Sororitas, I think you can always give them a DW bolter if you consider they get the chance to be awarded it (and if you send them DW style enemies ), but I think they're fine as is. I didn't get the chance to play with one (Inquisitor, not SoB, much more likely anyway ^^), but the Inquisitor was quite awesome in his way (he had his own lil' Thunder Hammer, and totally kicked ass in Melee), despite not being a psyker. Plus he rocked our world with Skill Masteries, which we rank 1-2 Marines were far from getting. So in the end, it evens out.

A SoB would be proacher from the Marines in term of combat capability (seeing the Talents etc), but she'd still have some very nice skills (plus Faith Powers, these sound absolutely frickin' awesome to me, I want to play a Bolter Bi...I mean a Sororita in our next DH game!). So I dunno. I'll say when I get the chance to see it in action

But then again, making Marines work with other characters has an RP dimension. Marines are sent where the sh*it is the heaviest. They are super-armored heavy mobile infantry, capable of advancing under hell's fire, where the other characters in DH are a bit more subtle. So they have to learn how to play the team's way (the Marines trying to attract the fire so the DH characters can really get their shticks out, etc, etc).

Lynata said:

Lynata, Lynata, Lynata. You may be well-versed in 40K lore in general but you are a rookie when it comes to the amazing abilities of the Astartes in DW. If that Space Marine wants to see the other guys really dead, if he's really mad, he'll use the Solo Mode ability Feat of Strength. That will give him 1d10+13.

And if he is an Astartes hero, a DW Marine of Rank 7+, he will do 1d10+18. (But shouldn't improvised weapons rather do 1d5-2? Would fit the damage system better.) Let's assume he has Strength 50+; he will do in Power Armour 1d10+15 or 1d10+20. And if the PA gives a strength bonus...

Which solidly underscores your assertions about the problems of the multiplier systems. But it's easy to fix. Use a +4 instead of one multipler level except where you think it goes over the top. If you think all of DW is over-the-top, use +2 or +3 per level instead. Personally, I don't bother trying to create the perfect system. It's too much work because if you balance out a system in one aspect, it will open up problems in other areas due to system complexity.

A system just needs to be roughly accurate so that GM fiat isn't a too frequent occurence.

Alex