N0-1_H3r3 said:

The Mars-pattern was issued to both the Astartes as well as the Sororitas. As for the other patterns, "miniaturized" likely means that the guns are somewhat more fragile and cannot take as much of a beating. A "mortal" bolter would likely break where the Astartes version merely gets a scratch. And that's about it for the differences.

Let's look at some of the facts. We know that they fire the same caliber - even in DH - so the only other possible difference might be the length of the bolt. This might mean a slightly(!) increased charge or something, but we have to keep in mind that (a) you can't make a bullet twice as long just like that and (b) the very mechanic of how a boltgun works minimizes the differences in recoil anyways, as both projectiles would still employ a rocket motor to propel the bolt forward, thus simply not requiring a heavier primer, thus not requiring more strength to use. The reason boltguns aren't as common is primarily because even the normal versions take a helluva strength to use, which most people lack. In DH, we now have the strange phenomenon that an Acolyte with SB2 can use his bolter just as well as the Acolyte with SB5 in heavy power armour.

It gets even funnier, though, when we look at the Heavy Bolters in DH, which apparently make less damage than Bolt Pistols used by the Marines, despite having an even larger caliber, and themselves being larger weapons too. And I doubt they had to scale it down to make it usable by ordinary people, seeing that these weapons are commonly only employed stationary or on vehicles.

So, it pretty much indeed boils down to that magical "ASTARTES" stamp. Or the weird "civilian" stamp, if you want to turn the issue around.

I do not like this system of two boltgun classes. It goes against 20 years of fluff and it makes no sense in terms of game mechanics nor politics. The one and only reason it exists is the scaling issue of DW. I maintain that it should be treated as such.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

GW approved "civilian" bolters. Back then, Inquisitors and Sororitas were not even planned and the game was revolving around a bunch of lowly Acolytes who came from the Underhive or the Imperial Guard. The problem is that this decision from back then is now carrying over even into Ascension, because we have never gotten a proper mechanic that takes the character's strength (ability to deal with recoil) or influence (ability to acquire such a weapon) into account.

To clarify: I have no problem with "mini-bolters" being carried by civilians having a lower damage, as indeed they may be using a smaller caliber than the .75 rounds. My problem is that this rule has been extended to include organizations which, in the fluff and in the tabletop, have access to the same level of equipment as the Astartes. When Space Marine Scouts can fire their boltguns unaugmented, why would strong people wearing power armour not be able to do the same? It has no basis in terms of stats or mechanics, it is a simple law that allows no deviation, regardless of how skilled or how strong you are. Even if you get to the very same SB as a Marine Scout, you still can't use his gun. Why? Because of, again, the magical ASTARTES stamp.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I'm pretty sure the Inquisition or the Ministorum are unimpressed by such regulations. In fact, I doubt they actually exist - the background for the Angelus pattern is the difference between civilian and normal bolt ammunition. It stands to reason that all Imperial Adepta have access to the latter. And just like there are Rhinos, Thunderhawks and Plasma Pistols used outside the Astartes, I don't see why the Boltgun would be the one exception, especially when all the fluff up until DH handled it the same way.

ItsUncertainWho said:

That might be an argument if the Ministorum would not have its own forges on Ophelia VII since Vandire's time, and Vandire was quite adamant at equipping his "Brides" with the best equipment available. Which is why the Sororitas have the gear they use now. Also, I'm pretty sure that the Inquisition would have ways to work around such an issue as well.

Lynata said:

I agree with the sentiment that Deathwatch and DH should be more compatible, but Deathwatch teams are led by Deathwatch Captains. The TT Kill team rules from 3rd ed was a Captain, an optional Librarian, 3-8 Marines with special ammo, and a Heavy Bolter marine with Deathwatch suspenders (Old personal joke there). The inquisition called them in on occasion, but they didn't lead the teams, they aren't part of the command structure of the Marines, and don't have the common core tactical and training experiences the marines do. They aren't WORSE than the Marines, just it would be like a Naval admiral leading a team of commandos into the bush in Vietnam.

The difference between astartes and non astartes bolts could be in the quality of their mass reactive cores, rather than the size of the shell. Bigger boom, not bigger bullet. I doubt an unaugmented mortal could get to a Scout's strength, they have all the upgrades save the Carapace they are going to get. However, I agree, they should have kept the A. boltgun doing the established 2d10 damage.

On the Mars pattern issue. I drove a Suburban with a 1500 pound chassis, for a year, while a guy down the block had a 2500 lb chassis. the only way to tell the two apart was the number stamped on the side, and the fact that mine looked like crap because I bought it very used, where as he had kept his nice. Same year, same model, just different chassis. His could out perform mine like a ... well, you know the expression. 2 Mars pattern bolters may well be different in performance.

2 Forges are not necessarily capable of the same things, either in actualy products, or in quality.

Also, if the Inquisition and the Ministorum start trying to bypass what the Astartes see as their province and essentially, property by ducking treaties, they are much less likely to come to their aid in the future, the Imperium exists as web of checks and balances so a Heresy can't happen again.

**** YOU CODEX WAR, MUCKING UP MY RPGs!

Fenrisnorth said:

Oh? I was going by what I read on Lexicanum on that, where the article suggests that Inquisitors are actually more common than Deathwatch Captains or Librarians - which I thought would make sense, given that the Deathwatch likely doesn't have as many Captains that they would send one to accompany every single mission.

It is possible that I have allowed myself to be led astray by their mission profile (small unit combat as opposed to large scale warfare) and the Inquisitorial crest in their emblem. If so, I apologize. My knowledge regarding the Ordo Malleus and Ordo Xenos and their respective Chambers Militant is, I admit, rather limited when it comes to details.

Okay, forum is not accepting code when editing, so no more quotes in this one.

"I doubt an unaugmented mortal could get to a Scout's strength, they have all the upgrades save the Carapace they are going to get."

Not unaugmented - I meant when donning power armour. It may be a little extreme, but quite possible for a veteran DH character to get an SB equal to a Deathwatch starting character. And we don't even take into account that Neophytes may have less strength than Deathwatch Veterans.

In fact, wasn't there a bit of recruitment fluff where they explain that the Astartes use bolter drills to check on who is worthy to be inducted into their order? How do they do that if it is absolutely impossible for a mortal to fire their bolters?! And they were recruiting children ! ¬_¬

"2 Mars pattern bolters may well be different in performance."

It was the Mars-Beta pattern in both cases. I don't think the pattern goes into any more sub-categories than that. And that's just for a case directly named in the fluff. As I quoted, the Munitorum Manual completely lacks any kind of reference towards a difference between two kinds of bolters - they just say that most humans aren't strong enough. Which sounds way more fitting than "all normal humans can fire all civilian bolters but never Marine ones".

"Also, if the Inquisition and the Ministorum start trying to bypass what the Astartes see as their province and essentially, property by ducking treaties, they are much less likely to come to their aid in the future, the Imperium exists as web of checks and balances so a Heresy can't happen again."

Which treaties, though? As of now, they exist solely as a theory to explain a ridiculous difference that only plopped up in DH. And why would the Imperium be able to produce anything they want, with the sole exception of Astartes bolters? Why would the Marines even care, given that they seem very fond of ignoring what goes on in the IoM? And why would Vandire have cared what the Marines think of him? Even if one Chapter Master might be bothered, the Marines as a whole are far too fragmented for this to produce a unified front against a breach of this theoretical treaty.

I believe it's more like. Chapter Master of the Argent Knights signs a pact with Forge World Gamma Cygnar for everlasting protection in exchange for the entirety of their production of Wolf's Fang Mk. XXVIII bolter munitions, than "ALL MAHREEEINES GET AAAWWWLLLLL DA AAAAMMMUUUU!!!!!!"

Those have been around for ages, since fluff appeared in White Dwarf.

And both Grey Knights and the Deathwatch do operate on a squad level basis, much like you heard, but the DW are usually veteran level marines lead by a captain, with optional psyker support. Which is one of the reasons I don't consider the Deathwatch a proper chapter. Now GW may naysay this when they put out the next =][= codex, but for now, the above is the case with the DW. They are actually from a WD artice from like 10 years ago, not from any codexes.

Grey Knights in the Grey Knight series rarely turn out in force, only to battle say.... Angron, Daemon-Primarch of the World Eaters during the First Battle for Armageddon.

And Acolytes in PA should totally be able to use a Astartes Boltgun. I thought you meant barehanded, which Scouts can do because of their implants. Regarding recruitment fluff, I've seen brainscans (Space Marine, 1988), Choosers of the dead, (Space wolves novels) Gladiatorial challanges (Blood Angels novels) and that's about it, I've never seen bolter drills, but then again I ain't seen everything.

Fenrisnorth said:

No, no, not barehanded - well, even if single shot would be doable if we go by the Munitorum Manual (and DH's Angelus, apparently, so it doesn't seem to be the bolt ammunition type that is the problem here).

In a way it's sad that DH doesn't go into detail regarding the recoil, with the sole exception being the Sacristan in the IH.

I've recently proposed a houserule to my current GM concerning autofire on all boltguns. The idea is that you need SB3+ to operate a normal boltgun (or SB4+ for the Godwyn-De'az) on single shot and semi-auto. All boltguns are capable of autofire, but you need an SB5+ (or SB6+ for the G-D) to use it effectively. If you are one degree below the threshold you get -10 BS, if you are two degrees below you get -20 and take 1d5 Impact damage into the arm, three degrees below means -40 and 1d10 and so on ...
You can, however, also brace a bolter, which results in your SB counting as if it'd be +2 for the purpose of calculating the effects of recoil. This allows even normal people (SB3) to fire their Locke-pattern boltgun on full-auto as long as they brace it on a sandsack or at a window and so on. You know, like in that one drawing in the IH.

Just an idea, of course, but in my opinion this gives a much more accurate depiction of the boltgun as we know it from the fluff.

Fenrisnorth said:

That was in the 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines. My first Wh40k book ever.

Lots of interesting fluff in there. Including a daily schedule for Marine Chapters, what the Astartes do all day long and stuff.

OH GOD I HATE THAT SCHEDULE!

That thing is what killed Space Marines for so many of my friends. They point to that, and BOOM, every space marine is a carbon copy of each other, and has no personal goals, motivations, or anything, just wake, pray, kill, eat, kill, eat, kill, pray, kill, sleep

That's why I joined the Legion of Russ, where we party half the time, kill half the time, and sleep half the time............... Yes it's three halves, what, you want to fight about it? WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOF!

I've butted heads with a lot of people over on the Deathwatch Forum about the massive difference in power level between Astartes and non-Astartes bolt weapons- check out:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=214&efcid=3&efidt=444372&efpag=0

-for details. None of the arguments for maintaining the status quo are convincing to me- it all just sounds like a combination of Power Gamers who want to keep any possible unfair advantage, and guys who want Sororitas to be drastically weaker than Astartes because "girls are icky!"

Adeptus-B said:

I thought it was because woman had a -4 to strength ?

Adeptus-B said:

I think it's more likely a case of "My Marines have to be better at everything than anyone else!" - though I know that there are always some people who fall into the categories you mentioned.

An interesting thread with a few new good points, by the way. And of course I have to agree: the arguments for the DW bolters are not convincing. In fact, they are rather easy to debunk.

First off, I don't see how one can so easily dismiss the TT as having any weight in the discussion when, in the very same post, it is stated that GW only writes the fluff for money. Apart from the fluff making every army look badass in their respective codices and novels, would this argument not invalidate the fluff as well? What are their arguments actually based on, then? And why are they ignoring the fluff that clearly states that there are no two classes of boltguns, but only one?

Even if we go by DH, though, we know from two sources that Astartes bolters do 2d10 damage. We know too that normal humans are quite able to fire Astartes rounds. Common sense should dictate that the idea behind the Angelus can easily be carried over to a proper gun. Unlike the Sacristan bolt pistol from IH, the Angelus doesn't even have a Strength requirement.

Furthermore we have the ridiculous fact that a power-armoured Battle Sister apparently has no problem whatsoever firing a Heavy Bolter without bracing it - but is apparently utterly incapable of using a boltgun whose bullet caliber is only 75% the size , whose rate of fire is 60% slower , and which only weighs half as much . Hello? >_>

Brad: Tell that to the Canoness.

Sisters get Bulging Biceps? Cool.

I think it's a question of scale; both weapon-wise and Game-wise. I think that, back in the good ol' days, during the Great Crusade, Marines were pretty much the ONLY people using bolters (Even commissars back then weren't the #BLAM# types of guys we know them in 40k), this coupled with the fact the Ad-Mec was (possibly) all "THE OMNISSIAH IS ALIVE! LET'S HONOUR HIM BY MAKING TOP QUALITY STUFF!" making for super high quality weapons.

Then Horus did his rebellous adolescent rage gimmic, cue grimdark. The Ad-mec was still making weapons but it was (possibly) more

"Oh yeah, you heard about how the Omnissiah got owned? I'm not feeling like working MORE than what I'm doing now."

"Yeah well, there's those traitors running around..and the fleshlings kinda need something bigger than lasguns."

"FIIIIINNNNNEEEEEE let's make toddler-sized botlguns then."

Enters the 'Civilian' bolter.

Of course you're saying "That's stupid"...maybe, but keeping in mind that Astartes boltguns are generally centuries, if not MILLENNIA old Chapter relics, chances are they might be some that were made during the Great Crusade (or the 2-3 following millennium after). Not all of them, but to make an Astartes weapon of LESSER quality of what they have have now would almost be an insult (and HERESY) to the Omnissiah, that and Astartes got all the nice vehicles and gear and devices: it would look bad to ride into battle wiht that badass power armour, jumping down from that Land Speeder, landing on that Land Raider and firing some crappy Chinese-made quality boltgun knock-off.

Call it Machine Spirit cynergy. Also the Marines got a rather good relations with the Ad-Mec, so they know the Astartes will respect the Machine Spirit. Guardsman Jok knee-deep in the mud, or that pompous noble from Hive Bigtop who only want "To show that Jeremiah fool who shall be crowned the flashyest of them all at the Winter ball' might have other priorities. The only reason the Ad-Mec would work hard on 'civilian' bolter is that it's a high-tech device: not because it's superbly well made.

Hmmm.....

Ok I forgot where I was going with that. Oh yeah, question of scales...Ok the other text served little but whatever.....Ammo: Astartes bolt rounds are made specifically FOR the Astartes, and are not for the general public; a bit like you can buy .308 rounds at the gun shop, but couldn't get some 7.62 FMJ NATO rounds at the same shop, it ain't for you. But both can be used with the same gun, since it's essentially the same round, but each type of rounds serves a specific purpose.

And there's the game-scale: in DH a deamon or a rogue Psyker are one of the biggest threats you might run into that 1d10+5 Pen 5 sure is a blessing...in DW, it's more like a thousand 'nids, or soldeirs with lasguns, or lotz o' boyz, or a platton of deamons backed by a regiment of Rogue Psykers, in the middle of a planetary bombardment. that 1d10+5 pen 5 ain't gonna cut it, even with full auto capabilities. 2d10+5 will.

Likewise, in DH, having someone in my cell packing that sort of firepower in a (relatively) small package would be too unbalanced; either everyone got a botlgun so I can up the opposition, or I got to have a big ass monster for the guardsman, and a few mooks with pistols for the adept/tech-priest/scum so that everyone' not bored during combat. Even starting with the lowest possible BS (22), someone still has close to 50% chance of hitting something full auto, and generally killing it right off the bat.

Frankly if I run DW and I somehow got someone who's hellbend on playing a SoB, only normal I upped her weapon to the same level as everyone, only natural, as the game-scales are totally different.

Lyn: I had some catchy comeback here, but it got lost in my rant..so I'll say that she can get that Commissar up 'cause with her P.A. bonus she's got a +6 str. OH SH-...and yes SoB got bulging biceps somewhere in their career rank..think rank 4-5

Funny, but off topic story about ammo:

In the states, you can only buy soft tipped bullets. This is because we don't want people buying Full metal jacketed ammunition which will cut through body armor more easily. HOWEVER! soft point ammo is considered a war crime because it expands in the body more and causes massive internal trauma. This means that all ammo sold in the united states is in violation of international standards!

Braddoc said:

I can perfectly believe that, but the way DH is set up right now it makes every Imperial agent except Space Marines equal to street gangs. The term "civilian bolters" was particularly insulting. And I know I am overreacting in this debate, but given how the Sisters were treated during the past years I kinda feel like I'm standing with my back against the wall. I have already given up on the armour debate despite the Codex clearly saying it provides the same degree of armour protection, but I will defend my military-grade boltguns to the very last post.

A Godwyn-De'az can, as per the RAW, "only" do a maximum of 15 damage. This is not enough to punch through the Marines as they are presented in Deathwatch; their power armour and Unnatural Toughness will soak these wounds up until the very last point. Regardless of how high you roll, you cannot even scratch them. Is invincibility really supposed to be an accurate representation of the fluff? And why do Astartes rounds suddenly do 2d10+5 damage and not just 2d10 anymore?

The way I see it, every Imperial Adeptus has access to standard "Astartes" bolter rounds. It's just that the Marines have a lot of specialized rounds in addition to that. They don't generally do more damage just because of the "Astartes" stamp, but they are able to load whatever suits best for the mission they embark on, which gives them an edge in combat. Tactical advantage, not brute strength.

Braddoc said:

Undoubtedly. I believe I said it before that I think that Battle Sisters were introduced "prematurely". Regardless of the difference in scale, with Ascension player characters become Inquisitors themselves, and this is where DH should slowly progress over into the areas of DW, with the ideal situation that a DH Ascension Inquisitor could be a balanced member of a Deathwatch Kill Team.

Anyways, I don't mind the difference in scale, but I do get defensive when there are people claiming that one of my favorite factions basically has crap equipment just because they do not want any aspect of the Astartes-Awesomeness to be anywhere close to, what was the wording ... oh yes, "DH mooks" - regardless of what the fluff actually says.

Oh well. By the way, Brad, I've uploaded our new Boltgun Recoil Rules into the wiki. How about trying to fire a Heavy Bolter in full auto without bracing? Now you can ... if you dare.

technical difficulties...

oh hell, I'll fix it in the morning

Lynata said:

Well not really often, but it's not uncommon. In actual play an Inquisitor brings a lot to a Kill-Team, though pure combat power isn't really one of them. While they have a wide array of pychic powers and wargear that makes them deadly and durable, it's their even wider array of unorthodox skills and connections that really makes them stand out.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Actually, it talks about this in the Inquisitor's Handbook, under the entry for the Angelus. The fanes of Gunmetal manufacture them under an oath-bond, and each bolt is stamped with the aquila and maker's mark before being handed off to the Mechanicus. Despite the heavy security involved, every once in a while a shell goes missing. It's a crime to carry the weapon, so you can bet it's a crime to have an Astartes bolt.

Lynata said:

I just got to flip through Death Watch and because of these DH vs DW threads by various names, I had to pay a bit of extra attention to the armoury. One thing I noticed is this "Astartes Stamp" isn't limited to just the bolters. It's on freaking everything and most things with said stamp out preform those same things without the stamp. Hell, Astartes Flamers apparently burn even better then any other fire ever made -I would have thought that if anyone had perfected the art of burning sh!t, it'd be the Sororitas. It all points to the one thing that was mentioned earlier in this thread and elsewhere in others; this difference in weapon damage exists solely to support the difference in scale or genre no matter the odd in-game reasoning tossed in there by the books. In the end, I think it would be best to just ignore most all mentionings of Astartes vs Civilian weapons.

What we essentially have is two different genres trying to exist in the same universe/movie/story. The differences don't matter unless you try to mash them together. It's a lot like The Maltese Falcon vs Sin City. Superficially, they should exist in the same universe. They are both noir (well, noir and neo-noir) which deals with the gray area of human morality against a start backof black and white crawling with shadows of mistrust. Roughly the same universe, but that is where the similarity ends. They each work off of completely different universal laws. You can't ever hope to mash the two together and have it work without one of them being severely changed in the process. It's the same with Death Watch and Dark Heresy. Same universe on the surface, but completely different genres underneath and, as such, they need different universal laws to work.

If you want to play the Big Damned Heroes of Action genre, you play Death Watch and upgrade those characters who aren't Astartes. Give them "Astartes" weapons since, after all, the sisters and half the Imperium used the same bolters as the marines and have a good actiony time. You want to play Down and Gritty, you play Dark Heresy and downgrade the Space Marines to match the feel and flavor of grim and gritty. Trying to homogenize those two vastly different genres into one won't ever really work and all you end up with is the silliness of MAHREEN FIRE BURN EVUN HOTORZ and such. It's best to simply say and accept that each game functions off of a different genre and in order to play it, each character must be redefined by that genres universal laws.

In DH, Space Marines should be a lot more grounded, in DW, they should be the Greek gods they are, but other Heroes of the Imperium should be brought up to match, simple as that.

Lynata said:

I think you have some points in the first part of the post, except SM being twice as tough as their armor - they are actually on average just as tough compared to their armor (TB 8, Armor 10) as Imperial Guard are to theirs (TB 3 or 4, Armor 4). As for the fluff GW has never been really consistent about the difference between normal bolters and SM versions. Back in the old days Bolters were Bolters, but in DH they wanted to set SMs far apart from mortals. As of now SM Bolters are overpowered compared to other SM weapons. while SM weapons are generally more damaging because they fight enemies with either tons of armor or both natural armor and unnatural toughness.

As far part two here is from the Lexicanum:

"Kraken Pattern Penetrator Rounds are powerful armour-piercing rounds. The deuterium core is replaced by a solid adamantine core and uses a heavier main charge.1 Upon impact, the outer casing peels away and the high velocity adamantium needle accelerates into the victim, where the larger detonator propels shards of super hardened metal further into the wound. These are effective against heavily-armoured infantry."

Unless you have a better scource I think you are mistaken, Kraken rounds need not have anything to do with Hive Fleet Kraken.

Blood Pact said:

That should be true for anything produced solely for any Imperial Adeptus, though. This piece of text only shows that it is well possible for a Manufactorum outside the Astartes to produce this level of quality supposedly limited to the Marines.

Blood Pact said:

Actually, according to the fluff the Mechanicus found it impossible to retreat from the deal they made with the Ministorum concerning the manufacture of their gear, even as Thor trolled them with relocating the Ecclesiarchy's Technology Purification Centre to Ophelia VII. Furthermore, the AdMech receives a lot of rediscovered technology from the Missionarius Galaxia. As with all things in the Imperium, the dependence goes both ways.

To recap: We know that "Astartes" quality can be reproduced in non-Astartes forges. We know as well that Astartes rounds can be fired by normal people. We furthermore know that Vandire had equipped the Sororitas with the best equipment available. We also know that the manufacture of this same equipment kept going even after Vandire's reign had ended. Conclusion?

Blood Pact said:

Even according to DH all these bolts work with the same materials, though. There might even be differences in quality (though I do not find that feasible, see above), but I very much doubt this would explain a 100% difference in efficiency. Also, the Angelus is perfectly able to be fired by a normal human even without power armour. It actually lacks the SB4 quality required to use a Sacristan Pattern, which is a variant of the Godwyn-De'az. I smell a lot of inconsistency here.

Blood Pact said:

Aye, I thought of something like that as well ... basically, inventing the cal .50 bolt, maybe? I don't particularly like it as it still supports the invention of two classes of bolt weapons that does not fit into the fluff up until DH, but it certainly would be better than the current situation.

Of course I also see the balancing issues that would be created in DH, too. In a way, I think the most elegant solution would be to introduce a minimum strength requirement for boltguns and make them somewhat more expensive/rare. Basically, making sure that they only become available to pretty advanced Acolytes somewhere between rank 5 and Ascension, and have them rely on more normal weapons up until that point. For a Battle Sister and her starting gear, this would mean a longer novitiate term, falling back to the idea of 4 Novice ranks from the IH.

Blood Pact said:

Aren't they called Chapter in the DW book? I'm actually of the same opinion that they do not qualify for this term (I think of Deathwatch as more of an "assignment" than an organization), but if we go by DW's fluff overriding what was established before then this seems to mean a change in terminology as well. Of course, if you take away the Inquisitors as their commanders then they have to be self-governing - I suppose this is where the Chapter stuff comes from. Can't say that I think of this change as fitting, but naturally opinions on this will vary.

Blood Pact said:

Nowhere did I talk about it being accurate, but the difference in damage being 100% off is way beyond "inaccurate". It's a whole new dimension. As I said, Marines in DW are completely invulnerable against DH weapons, which obviously isn't true in any source of fluff, from the codices to the novels to the comics (speaking of, Inquisitor Grinn did carry and use an Astartes boltgun in "Daemonifuge"). I'm sorry, but I cannot agree on the idea that the only thing supposedly being dangerous for a standard Tactical Marine is supposed to be a Hive Tyrant.

Blood Pact said:

As I have quoted from the Munitorum Manual, all those different patterns have always existed in the fluff - but they still did not have such a ridiculous difference. Indeed, they all worked by the same specifications (cal .75 mass-reactive, adamantium-tipped, etc), just like all lasguns seem to work on the popular 19 megathule range. The Inquisitor's Handbook actually talks about this a bit in the "Munitorum Standard" article.

As for the Angelus: Its rate of fire is inferior. Its damage is exactly the same as what the NPC Deathwatch Veteran Sergeant in "Purge the Unclean" had. Also, wouldn't you agree that a weapon's damage stems more from its ammunition than the gun itself - especially as we're talking about a self-propelled miniature missile here?

Blood Pact said:

Exactly. It fits to what the fluff has told us for decades.

Blood Pact said:

I don't much mind things like that when they have always been part of the setting. What bothers me is when things are unnecessarily changed to look worse than they were. Basically, yeah, I'm grumpy because they've taken my toys away.

Blood Pact said:

And I never doubted that. The fluff has told us that there are some few areas in which other organizations are able to equal them, though, and this is what I'm talking about. Else we end up next week wondering why the Inquisition's Rhino only drives half as fast as the Space Marine one or something like that.

Friend of the Dork said:

Well, depending on how the Marine rolls and progresses through his ranks. Unnatural Toughness means it's a lot easier for a DW character to increase his resilience, even up to TB14. Though you're right in pointing out that I was wrongly referring to an Armour Protection of 8 when they have a minimum of 10 on the chest.

Friend of the Dork said:

The way I see it, that seems to be a problem of DH, not GW. "The old days" are not as young as 2008, and I do suspect that GW/BL products released after DH/RT/DW will continue to make bolters look equal, because this RPG line is the one and only thing that claims there's a difference. When it doesn't even make sense in the scope of its own mechanics (Angelus bolt carbine, Sergeant Agamarr).

Friend of the Dork said:

No better source than the Chapter Approved article I quoted, no. Though we have to keep in mind that Lexicanum is, in the end, just a user-maintained wiki and not a source by itself. The true source would be Imperial Armour Vol. 7, but as I don't have it I am unable to check the exact wording. In the end, I'm just saying that "Kraken" sounds pretty close to the name of a certain 'nid Hive Fleet, and armour piercing ammunition works nicely against Tyranid Warriors. Doesn't prove anything, of course, I just thought the name has to mean something.

I hate to throw fuel on the fire (pun definitely intended) but Astartes fire does burn hotter. in the 5th ed codex, it says they yoink the best refined, promethium they can get, and I believe, cut it with additional chemicals to increase combustion temperature.

And I don't think Marines HAVE large scale forges, they just contract out to the best forges for their gear. I am almost certain I remember fluff about whole forge (worlds) producing nothing but ammo for the marine chapters in the black crusade.

Also, Vandire may have gotten the best gear (he could get his hands on). Doesn't mean he got THE BEST. Like if Cisco Systems bought the finest Supercomputers money could buy. The military may have better ones they got through DARPA that Cisco Systems didn't have access to.

Lynata said:

Which doesn't actually prove anything. A significant portion of Astartes munitions are produced in their own armouries, and many Chapters endeavour to be as self-sufficient as possible, but it's a given that they, like everyone in the Imperium, have to outsource at least some of the work to manufactorums on Hive Worlds and the like.

Physically possible and legal are in no way connected concepts.

Lynata said:

You're ignoring any parts of the argument that might hinder your position. For example, "best equipment available" is a subjective term, as it refers to the equipment that was actually available. It means that equipment that wasn't available wouldn't have been a viable option for him.

You've already noted that 'miniaturised' version of Bolt Weapons - which "mortal" Bolters essentially are - would be more fragile. That applies well here. When you scale something down, every proportion gets scaled down - this means that components like the barrel assembly would have to be proportionately thinner and more fragile - but also that the tolerances for precision machinery are reduced proportionately as well. A more powerful Astartes round - higher grades of explosive, more powerful rocket motors, etc - could well be too potent to be used reliably by a smaller bolter, without risk of serious misfire.

Now, a point of distinction here. I use the term "mortal" instead of "civilian" as I consider the latter to be the wrong word for the distinction. Indeed, IIRC, the term "civilian bolter" is only actually used once (I may be wrong here, I'm going from memory without access to my books). I strongly believe that there should be a distinction of quality and effectiveness between the wargear of the Astartes and that of the 'mortal' servants of the Emperor. I've held this belief for years now, long before The Inquisitor's Handbook came along and backed up my convictions. The exact values are up for grabs, as far as I'm concerned, but that's a whole other matter. However, while I am pro-"Astartes wargear is better", that does not mean that I don't feel that everyone else is lumped with identical stuff - I'm still entirely for the Adepta Sororitas having better gear than every other mortal organistion in the Imperium (with the possible exception of the Mechanicus, but that's a whole other kettle of fish).

Lynata said:

Smell whatever you want; games evolve in setting and design as time passes. The ideas that shape a game's later years weren't even thought of during the earlier ones. It's why we have Aspect Warriors for the Eldar, why the Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar exist (fun fact: the earliest specific reference I've found to the Dark Eldar came three years before their first appearance in the game, in Codex: Ultramarines), why the Horus Heresy is part of the setting (created to explain why there were two sets of Imperial Titan sprues in the first version of Epic), and so forth... 40k wouldn't be anything like it is now unless the setting were in a constant state of development and evolution.

And, from the perspective of someone now involved in that development, I'm glad for it...

Lynata said:

Actually, they're not; the Imperial Armour books make it clear that there are a variety of different megathule ratings applicable to different patterns of Lasgun (for example, Hellguns apparently sit at the 28 megathule point, while the Lucius-pattern Lasguns used by Krieg forces are slower-firing but more potent 21 megathule weapons).

Lynata,

Your argument, correct me if I'm miss interpreting here, is that one-on-one a SoB and a SM should be absolutely equal and in a fight it should be 50/50 who will win. This, if this is what you are arguing, is absurd at best.

From a different perspective think of how these "equal" groups operate. For every 10 marines deployed the SoB would probably deploy at least 100 sisters, while the guard would deploy in the realm of 5,000 men. This, to me, seems a reasonable deployment to take a fortress for these three groups. Then look at how they are outfitted.

Astartes = Bolters, Power armor
Sisters = Mortal Bolters, Light Power Armor
Guard = Lasguns, Flak

Hmmm, who's better equipped? Astartes, but from the Guardsmans perspective Astartes and SoB have the same equipment. They may not be exactly the same but they are "same enough" compared to a Guardsman's kit.

Take into account the fact that in the galaxy there are roughly 1 million space marines total. More than likely there are at least a million SoB per subsector, if not more. This is what makes sisters dangerous. They can bring a comparable, not equal, set of skills and equipment to a location in much greater numbers than Astartes, with much greater effect than IG.

Just because SoB are not exact equals in every way to Astrtes doesn't lower their standing as an elite fighting unit. Just consider how much better they are than the IG.

Also remember that the Space Marine presented in PtU carried a Bolt Pistol, not a boltgun, and that pistol did 2d10. So from the get go, Astartes weapons were superior.

In Deathwatch a group of sisters, if used against Space Marines, would be used in a horde configuration. This would easily give them the combined firepower to get through the SM's defenses, they would be a very dangerous horde opponent.

That's not her argument, and she has said so a few times, she is of the opinion, if I read correctly, that Marine's exuipment is not noticably superior that a battle sister's because the Inquisition and the Ministorum would be getting them from the same supplier. Bigger of course, but of the same quality, she has pointed out they fire the same size bolts, and they get them from the same place, so it seems.

She's not saying that a 1 v 1 battle between brother and sister is going to be, or should be, a stalemate.

Correct me if I have misrepresented you, Lyn.

That clears that up, thank you Fenrisnorth.

Here is a list of some 21 different .50 caliber rounds. These are all the same, at least in caliber, but there is no chance you can use them in the same weapons. Just because a weapon fires a specific caliber round doesn't mean every weapon that is chambered for that caliber is the same, or can use the same round.

Just because all bolts are .75 caliber doesn't mean every bolt is capable of the same range, damage, or firing from the same weapon.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Correct. I don't see how it should be illegal for the Imperium to use its own weapons to the fullest, though. Especially given that we're talking about an Imperium that is in a constant state of war, and that it's an established fact that the Astartes actually has stuff that is not used exclusively by them (Rhino, Landrider, Thunderhawk, ...). Given that, with the sole exception of this RPG, there is no single occurrence in over 20 years of fluff that hints at it, I just don't see why we should assume that boltguns are a special case. Added to this comes the fact that Marines and Sisters used the same boltgun pattern in 2nd Edition.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And given how many rules Vandire has bent and broken, why should he have cared for a theorized "no bolters" law? That is, assuming it even ever existed.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

This might be an argument if:
a) bolt ammunition would not be self-propelled, effectively eliminating the need for a stronger primer
b) we did not have the Angelus, which is perfectly capable of firing Astartes-grade ammunition

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Naturally, but usually this kind of evolution happens over the course of many years, not months - and mostly it's about adding things that were not there before, not rewriting stuff with every new book that appears as it seems best at the respective moment. It's not a huge problem, but it very much looks as if the writers simply did not plan very far ahead when they began setting down the rules for this system.
N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well, I don't consider hellguns to be lasguns, but I admit I did not know about the Lucius-pattern. Learning never stops. My argument about the bolt weapon standard still stands, though, and even DH/DW seems to agree on this.

ItsUncertainWho said:

No. I have repeatedly stated that this is not what I am talking about. I am simply adamant in my claim (well, the fluff's claim, really) that much of their technology is equal, and this includes the bolters. What sets the Astartes apart is their genetic engineering, their experience and their far more versatile armour.

ItsUncertainWho said:

If you are going by what DH/DW tells you. The fluff knows no difference between these bolters, and actually does say that Sororitas power armour - and I quote - "provides the same degree of armoured protection" (Codex Witchhunters & Inquisition Illustrated Guide). I am generally argueing for sticking to the fluff. The differences between the two types of power armour can be "explained away" (even logically so, though it does require interpretation), but the weapons are simply worlds apart.

ItsUncertainWho said:

The last number from the fluff was actually 30.000 Battle Sisters for the entire galaxy, at least concerning the six big Orders Militant. Keep in mind that the vast majority of the Adepta Sororitas is made up of the non-militant Orders. The Battle Sisters are their elite fighting arm and, due to both high physical requirements as well as regular losses in battle, are comparatively small in number. I'll look up the exact quote when I'm back home.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Last time I checked bolt pistols made the same damage as boltguns - both in the fluff (Munitorum Manual) as well as in DH/DW. They do fire the very same rounds, after all, only lacking autofire and having a much smaller magazine.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Good to know that they can at least scratch a single squad of Marines when you throw them in waves, IG-style.

Lynata said:

Hordes don't necessarily represent waves of troops it can represent precise targeted fire. A horde can be anything from an unending tide of hive dwellers during a food riot or it could be a small squad of elite troops who are highly skilled and very tough to kill. Don't let the name horde fool you, the mechanic is very flexible.

If the total number of SoB in the Galaxy is 30,000 they are a laughably small and irrelevant force, no matter how they are armed. If that is the official number, then they are a far greater force than all 18 of the original Astartes Legions put together.