Traveller61 said:

But everyone know *I* am right.

And SMs pick the bolt pistols because shooting mini-missles through space looks cooler than shooting red and green flashlights, especially if they go anime style and twist in turn for no apparent reason.

Lynata said:

For what my opinion's worth: all Star Trek movies past The Wrath of Khan suck. Dragon Age 1 had better "roleplaying" options than Dragon Age 2 (as far as one can roleplay in a computer game where your character's actions can be impeded by invisible walls) but Dragon Age 2 played better. Neither are a patch on Knights of the Old Republic (either 1 or 2). About a million miles wide of the thread topic there, but hey... at least I've added to the length of the thread with another post.

Unusualsuspect said:

borithan said:

True that, but I still rule that there is no such thing as caseless ammunition. Much cooler to imagine the clatter of spent shells piling up on the ground under the acolytes as they face down a tyranid charge

Where does it say autoguns have caseless ammo? Every time I've seen them mentioned they are basically about the level of modern assault rifles. They are also a kind of generic term for any fully automatic solid projectile rifle, with many variants throughout the Imperium.

deinol said:

Unless the weapon is listed as a Stub type it is considered caseless. Stub weapons are called such due to the "stubby ammunition" they use.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I thought that "stub" simply meant "bullet" or most any non-rocket propelled "standard" ammunition that didn't explode, scatter, or what-not and had nothing to do with cased or caseless ammo. Besides, it dosn't make much sense to call cased ammo "subby" compared to caseless ammo, which is shorter an thicker (or "stubby") then cased ammo.

ILUSTRATION

The second to the last on the right hand side is ceaseless, the others are not ;-)

Edit:

MORE BULLETS

And some actual caseless ammo that we actually got to work with the G11, the four on the right hand side. The three fat stubby but still bulletish ones were the first successful attempts at caseless ammo for the G11 while the one on the far right is the, I think, final G11 round. The rest of the bullets depicted are just some very odd attempts at some very non-traditional energy delivery devices for bullets... very non-traditional.

Dark Heresy & Rogue Trader contain:
Bullets
Hard rounds are common for many weapons within the Imperium and vary greatly in calibre and design. Bullets from one kind of firearm cannot be used in another unless they are very similar in make. So for example you could use bullets bought for a stub revolver in a stub automatic, but not in an autogun.

I looked in my Imperial Munitorum Manual and couldn't really find any details on the ammo for heavy stubbers or autoguns. If you have a source that states autogun ammo is caseless, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Does the Inquisitor's Handbook go into more detail about ammo? Rogue Trader mostly glosses over ammo unless it is special, only Dark Heresy characters have to buy things per clip.

The autogun picture has a shell ejection port. *shrugs*

I always thought that it would depend entirely on the individual model whether the gun would fire caseless ammunotion or shell projectiles.

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Autogun

With sources, nothing very recent but probably the last time they bothered including descriptions of them TBH.

The ejection port doesn't mean anything itself as they would probably have a port to manually eject dud rounds.

What part of it is sourced? The (slightly more extensive) German-language article doesn't mention caseless ammunition at all.

True about the dud rounds, though. I didn't think of that.

The 2E Wargear book (part of the old 40k boxed set) does indeed describe the autogun ammo as caseless. Of course, that's back when gretchin carried autopistols and autoguns.

Interestingly, it sounds to me like stub guns where original references to handgun ammo where a pistol has a shorter bullet and casing than a rifle round. That was long before they made heavy stubbers and other non-pistol stub weapons.

I would say that autoguns can be caseless or not depending on the particular model. Since the category encompasses basically all assault rifles from WW2 to future caseless models.

deinol said:

Doesn't mean there aren't some autogun varients with cased ammunition, but they will be from less-high tech worlds, and are not the norm. The Guns of Tanith certainl featured large-calibre heavy cased autoguns.

I wouls say that the ammo depends on the world: take a world who's tech-wise is early 20th Century, the guns there might have cased ammo; On a hive world, autogun ammo might be caseless because they actually ahve the Factoriums and tech to do so.

I see it like in Shadowrun: you can have your gun caseless or not; but don't try putting regular cased ammo in your caseless gun and vice-versa.

Traveller61 said:

And then we have me coming back to raise this thread back from the dead in the light of the new Deathwatch errata... and especially if Lynata is around, I'd like to hear if she has seen the new stats and what her thoughts on those were.

It seems to me that integration of DH and DW should be easier now...

Alex

Playing with fire, are we?

Yes, I've seen the new stats - and although I refrain from posting over there I have also followed the many discussions in the DW forum about it.

As much as I know I'll be drawing flak for this, I still cannot agree. And I don't know what the hubbub is about. Not counting RF, the boltgun loses an average of 1 damage and 1 penetration. "Wow." Yes, I know the top damage drops from 25 to 19, but so does the minimum damage rise from 6 to 10. All the errata did was make the boltgun less random. The heavy bolter has been affected more, but I daresay that DW sorely needed this and it will make for better games that incorporate a Devastator.

That said, the majority of DH/RT weapons will still be crap against DW-style opponents in areas where it should not be the case, so I don't see how you could do a proper crossover without a lot of houserules.

And lastly, of course it is also a matter of principle. Why should I not roll with my eyes when Deathwatch characters get better equipment when this is directly contradicted by GW canon? I understand that SPESS MEHREENS are all the rage and that it must be supercool to get a prestige bonus because of playing a superhero (in essence: people asked, and FFG delivered), but it really shouldn't surprise anyone that this kind of privilege creates a certain grudge amidst player groups who, by "right of background", should have access to similar stuff.

That is, unless Deathwatch is meant to be incompatible to DH/RT. Which I guess is the case, given that the upcoming Daemon Hunter book will feature two distinct rulesets for Grey Knights depending on where you want to use them. Just like DW stats differ from what kind of Astartes equipment previously appeared in DH. But to be honest, it's better this way, and I have to admit that DW's more heroic combat mechanics do fit its scope, just like I think that DH works fine with the stats it has now. The only thing missing would be official conversion rules from one system into the other. And the understanding of the playerbase that a 1:1 comparison should not be done.

Normal humans (read: DH/RT characters) have sufficient handicaps by the official background already. There is no need to introduce new artificial drawbacks or dial the rightful ones up to 11 to make people feel even more like the ugly duckling. And this does not only extend to equipment, but also some of those interesting special mechanics and perks only available to the Astartes - though it has to be said that this is likely a mere result of Deathwatch being a newer product and thus simply incorporating more ideas.

As always: Just my two Thrones.

*switches into defensive stance*

Lynata said:

Such as? DH characters are not intended to go up against DW-style opponents at all. It is an investigation game. You do not fight Hive Tyrants and Warbosses.

bogi_khaosa said:

Which is why the weapons work fine for DH. Yet, DH also utilizes careers that may well be used for other kinds of campaigns, and even crossovers with Marines should be possible from a background point of view. However, such games would get hampered by the differences which FFG has introduced to make one game feel more awesome and epic™ than the other. In terms of mechanics, not scope.

Because, yes, the Imperial Guard and the Sororitas do occasionally fight against Hive Tyrants and Warbosses. And against Marines or Chaos Marines.

When the weapons of a faction whose job description includes hunting down renegade Marine Chapters are unable to harm them even when rolling maximum damage, I do believe that something does seem to be wrong.

Let's just say I will stick to what GW says and don't think too highly of the "Exalted-style" gameplay in Deathwatch. I have no problem with the concept of suspension of disbelief, but it kinda stops at the point where a naked Marine's bare fist does more raw damage than his bolter, even when using FFG's precious Astartes ammunition. That's not to say that I (or anyone else) wouldn't still be able to have a good time in a game of DW, I just don't quite approve of its RAW (though it does introduce a few interesting new ideas, I'll give it that).

Lynata said:

Always. Plus I enjoy seeing a passionate woman in action. All kidding aside, let's get to business.

Lynata said:

The Bolter loses much more. First of all, that is two points of damage per hit. Secondly, the Bolter loses 1 ROF, that hurts even more hard. Thirdly, he loses auto-fire. It's a hard hit overall.

Lynata said:

Raise all DH weapons by 1 point of damage. Or 2 if you want to. Give DH PCs best-quality weapons. Give DH PCs force fields. Or an Astartes Infernus Pistol.

Lynata said:

I think if they made a Sororita core rulebook, they'd deliver in a similar vein. The thing is that creating the wow factor comes first and integration is only an after-thought. I can see why, it sells more.

Lynata said:

I still think it's all just because integration isn't high on their agenda. They don't make it purposefully incompatible, they rather develop the individual first and after all said and done, they may take a brief look at how it fits all together.

Lynata said:

Not in my direction, I hope. I'm not someone to attack you over it.

Anyway, I just think that the Emperor's flesh and blood are supposed to bully whoever stands in their way and that the Sororita's should only be able to rein Astartes in by sacrificing highly disproportionate amounts of (wo)manpower. To me the Astartes are the prime defenders of the Imperium of Man. But I am quite tolerant of other interpretations of the setting; in fact, it's interesting to see what implications a shift in power balance would have.

Alex

ak-73 said:

That is actually something that irritated me as much as (it seems) the majority of DW players. In my opinion, all boltguns should be capable of autofire (hence us adopting this houserule). The bolter in Rogue Trader can do autofire as well.

I can see why they may have done this from a balancing point of view, but it really doesn't do its fluff justice. Same goes for the RAW boltguns in DH.

ak-73 said:

See, house rules.

Now, this is just how I would do it, but I tend to believe that the most important thing that always used to set the Marines apart from others is their toughness. They should keep it*. Let DH/RT characters remain "squishy" so that they have to be more careful. But at the same time they should also do comparable damage where it is appropriate. Aside from mirroring the basics of the TT, this is simply how GW has defined it in the studio canon. And in addition to this, the DH/RT characters will likely also be able to offer some of their unique skills, depending on the circumstances.
And suddenly you have a game where everyone feels useful and doesn't have to take a step back, watching the Marines do all the killing because the enemy is invincible to his gun. Balance without equality, so to say. Or the other way around. You catch my drift.

Imagine, Marines basically acting as the group's protectors and heroically drawing enemy fire, whilst the other characters can be just as useful, if only they weigh their options carefully, balancing their actions between safety and support. We have seen this numerous times throughout the fluff, be it codex short stories or novels. Why not have this in the RPG as well? Especially in the RPG?

(*: Though I maintain that Unnatural characteristics are pretty broken and a moderate bonus would have been better than a flat multiplier...)

ak-73 said:

Definitively. I guess our opinions aren't that far apart after all.

I keep wishing that all of this would be addressed in some future "2nd edition" that aims for complete intercompatibility, but I can be pretty pessimistic. On the other hand, I am quite curious to see how they intend to have CSMs work alongside normal humans in Black Crusade, or how the Grey Knights in DH will fare when they are supposed to be compatible to Ascended Acolytes.

Why would a Space Marine's fist not do the same damage as a bolter round?

On the table top, Bolters are Strength 4. Marines close combat attacks are Strength 4...

DFK! Said

"Why would a Space Marine's fist not do the same damage as a bolter round?"

Honestly, because this isn't a war game defined by D6s, it's an rpg. A bolter round is a high technology rocket-propelled armour-piercing projectile the size of a whole 12 or 20 gauge shotgun shell that explodes inside it's target and a fist is a meat club even IF it is as strong as a gorilla.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

And don't those TT marines have melee weapons? (I know very little about the TT to be honest) A knife does more damage than the fist that wields it. Otherwise no one would use a knife. If Space Marines were that tough they wouldn't have to do anything except punch things and throw rocks, and that is just silly.

Whoever suggested the ideas that the differences between the games was to sell more books, and that the deathwatch special rules may just be new ideas was probably pretty close to the truth of the matter.

Me? I'm pretty comfortable not being able to reconcile the two games, but what I do think is broken (in all the games) are the unnatural stats, the multipler is just too tough. And agree with Lynata about the weapons.

Indeed. Guardsmen have S3, and I hope nobody suggest that lasguns are that bad.

In Deathwatch unarmed combat, it just seems that the Marines get a double bonus. They do 1d10 damage because they're so strong. And then they get double their Strength characteristic because they're so strong. Duh.

But yes, just one of the small oddities. Doesn't make the game bad, just ... different enough to stand apart from DH/RT.

Lynata said:

Actually, Deathwatch Marines (like all Space Marines, as they're part of the Space Marine Starting Talents list) deal 1d10+SB damage with unarmed combat (instead of 1d5+SB-3) because of their training - they have the Unarmed Warrior and Unarmed Master talents, which appear in Ascension and the Rogue Trader rulebook and are in no way unique to the Astartes - they're available to several characters within those two books.

A Vindicare Assassin, or an Arch-Militant with Synthetic Muscle Grafts, can both achieve comparable amounts of damage in unarmed combat. That isn't something unique to the Astartes, but rather the logical conclusion of what happens when you combine augmented strength with the knowledge and skill to make the most of it. An Ogryn, for example, possesses Unnatural Strength (x2) as well, but deals far less unarmed damage due to lacking that talent (few Ogryns have the necessary Agility scores to get Unarmed Master).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Apologies. In that case I have to expand my confusion to the relevant rules in DH/RT in addition to Deathwatch. Regardless of training, I do not think that unarmed attacks should be more devastating than a lasgun. Or that a naked fist should punch right through Terminator armour, even with kung fu.

Thanks for the correction, though. Obviously I still lack experience with non-Astartes careers capable of performing similar ... stunts. As much as I am grumbling about the differences between the individual RPG lines, I'm not exactly glad to see this having crept into the other systems as well. :/