I'd still not want Space marines if 10,000,000 guardsmen are the equal of all the marines in the galaxy, doesn't seem like a good deal for the expense of the marines.

And it's Rogal Dorn who is the source of that quote, so that skews things a little as he's a genius when it comes to leading soldiers, tactically or strategically.

Of course, he's still asking for 100 Marines, but to accomplish various tasks you still need a certain numbers of troops, no matter how good they are (JTF-2 may be some of the hardest mothers on the planet, but that doesn't mean 10 of them can hold the ground that 100+ regular infantry can)..

borithan said:

That's not far from what I'd expect on the TT. Sure statistically a 1000 guardsmen could kill a hundred marines in 1 turn of firing, but I'm sure Rogal Dorn would facepalm if you ended up in the situation where you were in range of a thousand guardsmen without having any of them taken down first. True the SM's couldn't kill 1000 guards in 1 turn of shooting, but they'd be a lot of them running for the hills where as you'd have to kill every SM.

In points terms Guards to Space Marine are about 5:1 rather than 10:1, maybe conscripts were/are more the norm for guards at that point / across the Imperium.

Regardless though, that's basically on the money compared to the orders of magnitude difference that some people seem to expect.

Fenrisnorth said "I'd still not want Space marines if 10,000,000 guardsmen are the equal of all the marines in the galaxy, doesn't seem like a good deal for the expense of the marines."

I'm sorry, pet peeve here, but I hate it when people try to use economics to justify anything about space marines.

Let's scale the question down to something understandable: Why spend $6 million on a single tank when you can hire 100 soldiers instead? Because it saves lives. Don't think of marines as soldiers, think of them as compact tanks. Compact tanks who are extremely loyal to the emperor.

It doesn't matter if marines are 3x or 5x or 10x a single guardsman. What matters is that they are better than the guardsman. So when an imperial world goes renegade and takes a regiment or two of IG with them, you can send in the Space Marines to put the fear of the Emperor in them.

The other reason you *need* Space Marines, whatever the cost, is that there are threats that no amount of Imperial Guard can take care of. The IG can take care of a rebellion. The IG can fight off an ork raiding force. But when the Tyranid Hive fleet assaults a world, the IG can only hold the line for so long and pray to the emperor that the Marines arrive in time.

You also have to remember, this is an empire. Not a democracy. Why go through all the expense of flooding the coliseum in Rome just for mock naval battles? Because I'm the Emperor, and I want it. Why go through all the expense of making super soldiers who are condition with undying loyalty? Because that's how the Emperor stays on top. For thousands of years.

Also, remember the scale of the empire. The world right now has a total GDP of around $60 trillion USD. So the emperor takes 10% of that. From over a hundred thousand worlds (a very conservative estimate, I'm sure someone can find a better quote). That's a budget of at least a quintillion USD. If the emperor wants to funnel 10-20% of that into a pet project, why does he even have to justify it? Justify it to whom? It's not like he has to answer to a senate oversight committee.

There is no economy in the Imperium. There is only the Emperor's will.

the agreed size of the imperium is around 1 million worlds so the above estimate might be out by a factor of magnitude.

Its not economics that bother me about space marines, lets face it, the imperium is so **** inefficient it only seems to keep going through inertia. every astrates bolt shell is the product of loving and painstaking production by the best gunsmiths in the galaxy, made from the finest ingredients. does the marine with the heavy bolt even think blink about hosing a building down with about 10,000 thrones worth of ammo? does he hell!

The astrates are above conventional economics just like the soroitas, because, at the end of the day, their weapons and armour are items of faith and reverence not supply contracts or bidding processes.

At Last Forgot said:

You're right there At Last Forgot. my 6,500 xp assasin is much more lethal and has a wide skill base compared to his fellows, all rank1 RT characters with the same amount of xp. i figured at first they had skills in other areas but I wiped the floor with the Arch Militant in 2 rounds when we sparred to entertain the crew and i've found out theings the seneschal struggled with!

I'll have to talk to my GM

deinol said:

I'm not sure if your arguement is very compelling.

If a Space Marine is only worth 10 guardsmen then that's just that. They're not really a vastly superior force to use against a Waaagh! or the Tyranids. They're just a force that you don't need as much of.. Which, at that particular ratio, is kinda lame (1:100+ is better). And it's not as if the Imperium of Man cares of about lives. The first Tyrannic War saw them feeding millions of Imperial Guard in to the meatgrinder of the Hivefleets. Until they learned that giving them too much biomass is a bad thing.

And I don't think the pyschological value against rebels is a very good reason either. When a planet rebels it usually takes more than a few thousand tolsiders to get things under control, and you're unlikely to get whole chapters to respond to that sort of thing unless you're 'lucky' to have a homeworld or major theatre of battle nearby.

The true strength of the Space Marines isn't their equipment or their abhuman strength and toughness - those are "only" useful assets and a Marine can get blown up by an artillery shell or orbital strike just like anyone else. The true strength of the Marines lies in focus, the concentration of as much firepower and resilience in as small a spot as possible. Which is why they're primarily intended for surgical strikes, and not as just being someone bigger than the Guard taking over their job when it gets tough, and why the most successful operations are those where you have the Guard and the Astartes working together instead of just having one of them alone.

If you have a Company of Marines taking on a disciplined Guard Regiment face to face, the Marines will loose. Badly. Fortunately for them, they don't fight like this. Instead they will circumvent the death zone and the main lines of the enemy force and deepstrike directly into their midst or rear, causing maximum damage and confusion, disrupting communications and taking out the opposing leaders.

As for 'nids, an Armoured Company of Hellhound tanks would seem to be more useful against a swarm than a couple dozen Tactical Marines with bolters, but YMMV. Whatever planet they're fighting on has enough biomass, anyways; one or two million Guardsmen more won't make much of a difference.

You do that and I'll do Marines who can throw tanks at helicopters and we'll see what sells the most neh?

I'm willing to put More Awesome Marines who justify deserve their reputation as the defenders of humanity through pure combat power to the marine loving public. I think it would be pretty popular.

Nah, I have no doubt that your version would be more popular. Let's just say my preferences are perhaps a bit too oldschool and not exactly in line with what is "hip" these days.

You know, I'm "one of those" who thought the new Star Trek movie sucked, and who preferred Dragon Age 1 over Dragon Age 2, etc ...

ItsUncertainWho said:

A bit later but..

I believed that the Black Ships are runned by the Sisters OF SILENCE, not the Sisters OF BATTLE.

They're two different branches.

Am I wrong?

Lynata said:

Debatable. A Regiment is not a fixed size formation (Codex: Imperial Guard 2nd edition - all the forces raised from a single world during a single muster typically form a single Regiment, which is never reinforced or replenished... the regiments of backwater agri-worlds are tiny as a consequence, as are those that have sustained massive casualties over years or decades of campaigning), nor are they of fixed composition (a regiment could easily consist entirely of Armoured Recon elements like Sentinels and Salamanders, or entirely of Super-Heavy Tanks, or Artillery, or anything in between in any combination). Similarly, matters of battlefield condition (terrain, ambient conditions) and relative deployment (including range to target) are huge influences.

Also consider the psychological impact of the Astartes - each and every one of them is a killing machine engineered by the finest scientific mind humanity has ever known, who wage war with an instinctive ease, employing weapons that are clearly as much tools of intimidation as they are tools of war. They're scary. They're meant to be scary, to shock and terrify enemies into retreat or surrender through the utter brutality of the Astartes presence, nature and capabilities.

Yeah, standing within optimal weapons range of a hundred thousand guardsmen is not the finest of career choices... but that is only one possible permutation of what a "Guard Regiment" is and in what context the hypothetical conflict exists within.

AluminiumWolf said:

It wouldn't though would it. Sure rabid fanboys would snap it up but the few big Marine list is a lot cheaper than the current armies, and you've alienated the players of every other army, what's the point of painting a huge expensive force of models if they can't hurt a marine, what's the point of buying and painting an expensive tank that's just a gloryfied artillery shell.

In the end you've just invented a game where people only bother to play marines and in doing so they won't even seem like the superhumans because they always fighting their equals. How insteresting is that going to be?

The Hulk ultimate destruction is a fun video game, but it's no TT wargame.

kuroifremen said:

The Sisters of Silence don't exist anymore - or rather: they did not ever show up again after the Horus Heresy. It is generally believed that, at some point in time, they were absorbed by either the Inquisition or the fledgling Sororitas (or both), though they could have in theory also been eliminated during the Heresy or the Age of Apostasy.

That said, given how extremely rare Psychic Nulls are supposed to be right now it does seem more fitting that way.

All we know for sure is that in the 41st Millennium, Black Ships are guarded by a squad of either Battle Sisters or Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Faith & Fire also mentions that, by Imperial Decree, the Adeptus Astra Telepathica is not permitted to use its own agents aboard the Black Ships for fear of corruption (note: the SoS were uncorruptable and belonged to the Telepathica).

Lynata said:

Nah, more toned down Space Marines a cooler. Anyway the way they exceed their "10x better than a guardsman" is how they are used.

New Star Trek didn't suck, but JJ Abrams does need to be told to occasionally slow down and have a plot. Disagree on Dragon Age 2 though... unless you mean the gameplay. 2 had a better story, 1 had better game-play. 2 was slightly too streamlined and had too much of a "Striker/AoE/Tank" character class structure.

borithan said:

I dunno: that stupid ass glaring light that pops out every 15 seconds pissed me off; I'm not looking at a badly photoshopped picture on the internet, I'm looking at Star Trek. As for DA: everyone knows The Witcher is the superior game.

Face Eater said:

We are mostly talking about an RPG though. No one has to paint thirty thousand orks. No one gets stuck playing the bad guys. An RPG is the perfect place to deliver an extended love letter to rabid fanboys detailing precisely how awesome Space Marines are, fulfilling all their Marine fantasies that tabletop never quite delivers.

Jesus T.F.C.

Anyone know what the record thread length is? Are we there yet?

Charmander said:

Well I think that the FSM threads were longer, and there is thread on the Haarlock Legacy that is almost as long, and this about plots and ideas in a DH game

"Are we there yet?" Not a chance! Still far too many ignorant posters to be convinced of the truth of "your" (as in whoever is posting) version (whatever it happens to be) of DH / DW bolters; SM vs SoB, or whatever we are "discussing".

DW

New topic!

lasgun vs. bolt pistol: which one an Astartes would prefer (with base that for a mission you only get one weapon) and why?

Bolt pistol. Tearing + penetration is better than ... did a lasgun have any pros?

Nigh infinite ammo, ease of use and maintenance, reliable, and can go for 60 shots without having to realod compared to 8-10 shots, can add a bayonet too.

Assuming he isn't carrying a backpack ammo supply or extra clips?

I still say bolt pistol. When he runs out of ammo he can throw rocks that hit harder than a lasgun. Assuming he hasn't taken a weapon from the first 8 guys he's killed that is more effective than a lasgun. Hint: Any other weapon in the game. Ok, not a las pistol. Those are more like ammo for his rock throwing.

Okay, neither of you guys are addressing the major issue here and why the Space marine would most definitely chose the lasgun over the bolt pistol. It's really quite simple: he's freaking tiered of making "pew pew pew" sounds every time he fires his bolter and his throat is raw from shouting "pew pew pew" loud enough to be heard over the roar of that damned bolter -completely ruins how cool laser battles in space are!

Frankly, I'm guessing they just got tired of wading through the waist-deep casings their bolters spit out magically (bolter ammo doesn't have a case, right?) every time they fired more than one shot.

Fanwank would just lead to Space Marines shooting so goddamn well with their las guns that they end up doing just as much damage (effectively) as they would have with bolters anyway.

Edit: A vision of 6th edition Space Marines: New Trait: Astartes grade®. All weapons used gain +1 to their Strength and improve their AP by 1.

Suddenly Space Marine bolters are rapid-fire Heavy Bolters, and their power swords are halfway to Relic Blades. Their Lascannons hit like a Railgun, they've got Str 9 Melta... And oh, those Heavy Flamers...

Edit II: Crap. I just realized I'm describing the Grey Knight Codex. HAH!