Lynata said:

The Regiment appears to be the primary organisational unit of the Imperial Guard - larger organisational groups are often depicted as being more ad-hoc, formed as and when a campaign requires, while Imperial worlds raise whole Regiments as discrete and permanent units, though the exact numbers of a given Regiment vary immensely (typically ranging from several hundred strong to tens of thousands of men).

In that regard, the use of the term "Regiment" to refer to a discrete part of the Imperial Guard seems entirely plausible regardless of their numbers.

As it stands, the notion of the Stormtroopers being of a single regiment seems to be a reference to the SAS, who themselves are a single Regiment within the British Army, and sets a standard for the quality of the Stormtrooper Regiment (and it seems appropriate to refer to them simply as The Regiment in the same vein as the SAS).

That aside, the numbers simply don't make sense given the scale of the Imperium - 10,000 men is less than nothing on the grand scale of things. The last informed estimate of the size of the Imperium I encountered (based on the number of worlds, and the approximate people per world all listed in the 3rd edition 40k rulebook) suggested a population of 3.3E+17. Even assuming that the total number of Imperial Guard is only 0.1%, that still means that there are thirty-three billion Imperial Guardsmen for every Stormtrooper. So few Imperial Guardsman would ever see a Stormtrooper that it's unlikely that they'd ever have been heard of by anyone, let alone have any sort of reputation.

And the problem with that is that if it took so rare a person to become a Stormtrooper (you'd need to sift through several worlds to find even one candidate), chances are The Regiment would never have been formed in the first place, in part because you'd normally never get enough of them together in one place in the first place, and in part because if they needed to be that awesome to start with, chances are they'd already have been taken by an Astartes Chapter (who, accounting for casualties suffered by aspirants, probably recruit more than 10,000 young men in total across the entire Imperium in every generation).

Frankly, if the Stormtrooper Regiment (or, for that matter, the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas) were to actually have any impact upon the Imperium ever, a few tens of thousands of warriors is nowhere near enough (particularly not for the Sisters Militant, given that they're supposed to be policing the Ecclesiarchy, one of the largest and most widespread organisations in the entire Imperium... they're outnumbered by the Cardinals that command each and every Diocese in the Imperium). Frankly, my personal inclination is to ramp up those values by three or four orders of magnitude at least, within my own games anyway.

This is all personal preference; I'm working my way through planning an invasion of a fairly average world for my Deathwatch campaign, and 10,000 warriors would barely be a blip on the radar compared to the tens of millions of Guardsmen being deployed, and worse, there are so few Stormtroopers to go around that by those canon numbers, I cannot actually justify any worthwhile number of these elite troops... because in a Deathwatch campaign, anything that a single squad of Stormtroopers can do will be done much, much faster and more efficiently by a Deathwatch Kill-Team. It's far easier to justify two companies of Stormtroopers (about 600 of them in total for an entire planetary invasion) when there are 10,000,000 of them across the Imperium, rather than taking 6% of the Imperium's entire complement of Stormtroopers.

I knew I shouldn't have looked at the DH forums again

Adeptus-B said:

To a certain extent I agree with you, but really why does it matter if there is info outside of BI/FFG?

Clearly there are things made for the RPG that aren't reflected elsewhere, and if you don't like the ruleset for them simply change them, yes? You can say the RPG contradicts, but you can't really say it's 'wrong' anymore than you can say any number of the authors is wrong for creating something in their books.

And FWIW, Horus Rising came out before the RPG, and several forumites have accused the author (whom I actually like more than just about all of the other 40k authors) of creating things that aren't properly represented elsewhere in the fluff as well...so your mileage may vary? Ducking for cover

Blood Pact said:

Why can a scribe with a SB 2 fire a giant bolt weapon, yet a giant uber guardsman in PA (or giant sister in PA) not fire an astartes grade weapon? Lynata has a point here, in that outside of balance and RPG speed issues the bolter treatment in the RPG is a little...off. I don't necesarily disagree with the reasons the authors did it, but I can see how someone might be put off by it.

And other RPGs have strength requirements for weapons, btw, and it dosen't seem to suck the fun out of them, it's done for balance reasons, as you need balance in a game in order for it to be fun (well, most people would say so).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

So? You could just as well argue that the 1 million Space Marines are "less than nothing" on the grand scale of things if you go solely by numbers. Yet, size does not matter. What matters is how they are used. Storm Troopers are not meant to pop up everywhere there is a fight going on, this is not how the Imperial Guard works. When there's trouble, PDF is expected to handle it first. When the PDF is unable to, Subsector Command mobilizes local Guard detachments. If they are not enough, Sector Command intervenes and sends units from elsewhere, and if that is not enough the Munitorum will escalate further - only then is there actually a chance that the Storm Trooper Regiment will get involved.

You need a major war for them to show up in the first place. And when you think that, despite the "there is only war" theme going on, few of the many battles fought at any specific point in time all over the Imperium will achieve a scale similar to Armageddon, suddenly it doesn't get hard to believe that 10.000 men are perfectly enough to send out one or two Companies to each of these theatres.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The Astartes do not recruit out of the Schola Progenium. The Storm Trooper Regiment recruits solely out of the Schola Progenium. There, problem averted. Additionally, the scholae are a galaxywide network of institutions all operating under the mantle of a single organization. I do not find it hard to believe that the scholae would collect and send detailed data about the physical and mental capabilities of their progena to the various Imperial Adepta (including the Departmento Munitorum) for evaluation and potential requisitioning. In fact, actual selection is likely to be done even earlier, given that the scholae already contain the first phase of each progena's training (unless we assume that not all progena trained as Storm Troopers actually get accepted as such).

I could think it goes like this:

1. Orphans get sent to local schola ->
2. Initial grading (weeding out those who are fit only to become Adeptus Terra clerks) ->
3. Basic training and conditioning ->
4. Second evaluation ->
5. Division into specialized classes (Clerics, Navy NCOs, Commissars, Storm Troopers, Non-Militant Sisters, Militant Sisters, Assassins, Inquisition Operatives) ->
6. Basic Adeptus-specific training ->
7. Final evaluation (sending any wash-outs back into the respective lesser classes) ->
8. Relocation to Adeptus-specific training facility (maybe there is only a single one for Storm Troopers? similar to how all SoB get trained either on Ophelia or Terra).

Lynata said:

The real problem with making stormtroopers so small is that essentially you have space marines outnumber them. Why bother using stormtroopers for anything when you could just ask space marines for help. Especially because given how rare stormtroopers are your more likely to have nearby space marines that you could petition for aid. Considering how rare stormtroopers are, your more likely to get aid from the space marines that get approval for requistioning stormtroopers from high command and then factoring space travel and how long it takes it could be years before they are actually in a position to do anything. You would also have to logically assume that stormtroopers would be better equiped then spacemarines solely because their are so few of them.

Stormtroopers are more likely to deal with a threat with less collateral damage perhaps.

RogalDorn said:

Because Space Marines you have to ask, Storm Troopers you can send. They are a much more reliable force in terms of acquisitioning and a firm part of the Tactica Imperialis. Not to mention they're much easier to work with, given that they are a firm part of the command structure and somewhat more disciplined than certain triggerhappy or bloodcrazed Chapters currently undergoing Inquisitorial investigation (though such knowledge is likely privy to only a small percentage of Imperial commanders).

That said, when do Space Marines partake in a defense of an Imperial world, anyways? I would not expect them to regularly become active below the level where Storm Troopers come into play as well, simply because they'd consider anything less beneath their dignity and undeserving of their attention (unless it is one of their worlds). Additionally, Space Marines usually show up on the battlefield with at least one full Company, if not half their Chapter. Storm Troopers can show up with a single squad.

RogalDorn said:

Warp travel doesn't take that long, and in the spirit of escalating conflict a war would have to be waged for some time until they would send in STs. As for the approval - I think it's pretty simple: If you really need them you'll get them, and if not you won't file that request. Actually, I'm not even sure you could specifically ask for them; it might rather be an automatic process and part of the Imperial Guard's doctrine of escalation.

RogalDorn said:

Storm Troopers have a much higher casualty rate, though. A Space Marine is likely considered more valuable than his equipment. With the Imperial Guard, the opposite is true. I would expect this way of thinking to be held even for elite formations such as the Storm Troopers. Because where one comes from, you can easily get replacements. Doesn't mean that you have to blow the size of their Regiment out of proportions, though. Only that their losses are roughly balanced by the number of new recruits coming in from the scholae - similar to how it is with the Battle Sisters.

And in the end ... I didn't make those numbers, I'm just providing explanations that might make them appear more plausible, given that a fact remains a fact until contradicted. As we have seen there are quite a number of people who have an issue with Sisters using the same kind of bolters as Marines as well, yet GW said they do, so clearly debates such as these are simply the result of deviating perceptions of the setting. If the Imperial Guard wanted to they could very well established an even more elite force consisting solely of ten men. Simply because (IC) someone in the Munitorum might have thought it to be a good idea, and (OOC) GW could have written that into their 'dex as well.

Everyone will have to decide for himself whether he wants to play in GW's setting with those supposedly faulty numbers, or in his own world. I can only provide the citations and likely conclusions.

Lynata said:

Space Marines make up half of GWs turnover, so they better be important.

Plus they have a reputation to uphold.

Defenders of humanity. Only thing standing between mankind and darkness. That kind of thing.

And a Space Marine who doesn't live up to the hype is no good to anyone.

Lynata said:

The Astartes are the exception to the rule - being post-human supersoldiers, they're worth many times their weight in normal soldiers. They're also autonomous and have access to a full range of support assets... the Stormtrooper Regiment doesn't. If they're a one-in-a-billion unit (being exceptionally generous), then they're a pretty damned poor one, given that they're still only humans with carapace armour and high-powered lasguns.

To be honest, it frankly seems absurd beyond all belief that the Astartes outnumber the Stormtroopers 100 to 1 or more.

Lynata said:

And in any situation where the Stormtroopers could concievably be brought in, both the Adepta Sororitas and the Astartes are a more widely available resource, better equipped, better supported, more capable individually... why would you ever employ a force that is less numerous, lacking in its own support elements and less available than better or more appropriate forces (such as the Cadian Kasrkin, who've been depicted as equal to Stormtroopers, yet are drawn only from a single fairly small Fortress World and not limited by absurdly small arbitrary numbers)?

I'm sorry, but it might not be canonical, but I prefer dealing with actually reasonable numbers in this regard.

Lynata said:

Doesn't invalidate my point entirely: the Astartes recruit only the best, and only a few of those survive the process... and yet you're claiming out of blind adherence to canon (something of a theme with you - you don't seem to care what the codices actually say... does this mean that you've got a justification for one of the worlds in the Armageddon system having an ambient temperature of 2 degrees below absolute zero? Or that the "dense armour-piercing tips" of bolter shells are actually made of an isotope of hydrogen?) that the Stormtrooper Regiment are a rarer breed still? Weeded out not by a legacy of traditions that predate the Imperial Guard (it didn't become the Guard, with its present uniformity, until post-Heresy) and the finest genetic science the Imperium has ever know, but rather by the stern gaze of the staff of a militant convent school?

If you're only taking the most capable few from the top of each class to be Stormtroopers, then does that mean that the individual Stormtroopers are more naturally capable yet more poorly equipped than the Sisters of Battle (who are three times as numerous and only choose from amongst the female Progena, so they can't be quite so picky)?

Lynata said:

None of which invalidates any of my points about the size of the Stormtrooper Regiment. The same notions are exactly as valid if there are a hundred million Stormtroopers. Also consider that there only being a single location for training does not invalidate there being a large number of them - afterall, the hundreds of trillions of Astropaths necessary for the Imperium to function are all Soul-Bound and trained on Terra, and they require the psychic intervention of the Emperor Himself.

As an aside, I personally don't like the idea that almost every part of the Adeptus Terra seems to recruit from the Schola Progenium, nor do I see the Schola Progenium as actually dealing with that many students in total, given their rather specific source of "new" orphans - certainly, I see the Officio Assassinorum as having their own, clandestine methods of recruitment that don't deal with any other part of the Imperium, I see there being far more non-Schola agents of the Inquisition than ones raised in the Schola Progenium, I much prefer the more recent notion of Commissars being recruited from amongst veteran Stormtroopers rather than trained from scratch as cadets (I prefer the idea that Commissars are hardened soldiers in their own right long before they join the Commissariat), Navy NCOs don't seem appropriate to come from the Schola (and you've overlooked that a good proportion of the Imperial Navy's Commissioned Officers are Schola-raised, as per background in Battlefleet Koronus). I also don't see that many Administratum staff being Schola-raised, given that a vast number of posts within the Administratum are indentured, hereditary roles (as per the Codex Imperialis).

But you're impossible to have a discussion with, because you insist on adhering so blindly and absolutely to official material just because it's official, without any consideration of any other factors.

>>>I can only provide the citations and likely conclusions.<<<

Dude, there is nothing more tedious than a quote war. If you don't like an idea tell people the real reason you don't like it.

Given the fact that Space Marines are essentially no longer human (at least so far as their physical abilities are concerned), they count for a lot more than Stormtroopers do.

Only having 10,000 Storm Troopers across the entire galaxy is just silly, where as having 100 times that number starts resembling something that is in any way viable (and hell, that's still not many at all. I'd probably go for something closer to 100,000,000 Stormtroopers across the galaxy).

EDIT: ****, Ninja'd by N0-1 *shakes his fist at Mr Nathan*

Lynata said:

Like Space marines power armour and bolters being more powerful that sisters?

Lynata said:

Lynata said:

In the case of the Sacristan, doing it for a SINGLE weapon to make it special and different is not at all the same thing as applying it accross the board to all applicable weapons.

And I see what you're doing here, with this question about Astartes weapons being put on another level. It doesn't limit anything. And being un-fluffy is your opintion, not a fact. Though you continue to act like your opinions are some kind of authoritative word on the subject, so I don't know why I bother.

Also, the Royal Army doesn't use the same naming conventions as the US, "Regiment" is not the title of a specific sized formation, hell they use it for the SAS sometimes and it's certainly not numbering in the thousands (I'd count us lucky if we had a few hundred of those badasses on our side), dozens is probably a more accurate assesment. In this case "Regiment" would be a more accurate term because they're all the same.

While the Sisters... the fact that you're so hardcore about the number 30,000, because a piece of fluff that's 14 years old hasn't been specifically overwritten is a bad sign that anything you say about fluff shoudl be taken with a grain of salt (much like how most of us treat stuff that old, that hasn't been retconned).

I dunno. There just can't be a vast number of people who actually like Space Marines, who don't like the idea of the larger and stronger Space Marines using bigger weapons.

Which is really all that matters.

RogalDorn said:

OH SNAP!

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And yet they seem to get the job done.

And I daresay that exceptionally well trained and disciplined humans with carapace armour, gravchutes and hellguns are quite removed from the norm of IG infantry. I also expect their training and experience to be somewhat better than rank-and-file Grenadiers.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The Battle Sisters are usually either needed elsewhere or actually do show up in the same battle, all depending on who fights over what. The Militant Orders are not there to do the job for the Guard, they follow the agenda of the Ecclesiarchy - it just happens that they often overlap. And ST Regiments do not have support elements because they don't need them. Whilst the Astartes are a standalone force and usually act as such, Storm Troopers are considered a valuable addition to existing elements. That is all they do - they reinforce.

Would it perhaps help you if you'd see Storm Troopers not as elite IG, but as elite Grenadiers? Basically the elite of the elite? Because you can indeed always set the mark higher, regardless of how many Space Marines there are. It does not matter at all.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Obviously they can only recruit those people they have access to. I do think that the galaxy-spanning Ministorum has a better perspective regarding capable recruits than some locally limited Marine Chapter, the majority of whom even draw their recruits only from a single planet.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I could simply claim that hydrogen is a different isotope in 40k than the hydrogen you know, or that the Imperium has a different idea about what absolute zero means. We both know those are excuses, yet you won't be able to find an argument against it (no, ridiculing them does not count). Personally, I would simply "gloss over" such flaws, but comparing this to the number of Storm Troopers in the galaxy really is apples and oranges. Because if those claims would be made about something in real life, the hydrogen and absolute zero stuff would simply be a mistake, whilst the 10k Storm Trooper number could very well be the crazy idea of some General and thus exist for real.

In short: Do you know how the 10k number got established? If not then I wouldn't be so bold to dismiss it just like that simply because it's smaller than the amount of Space Marines.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I guess so. Lucky Sisters, that the Ecclesiarchy can pay their bills, huh?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Except that one number is specifically mentioned in the fluff, whereas the other isn't.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

See, maybe that's why there aren't as many Storm Troopers.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I did not overlook anything, I wasn't aware - up until now, fluff only mentioned NCOs in this regard, though I do not find it hard to believe that officer lineage orphans would become officers as well, which I have also mentioned in another thread. I don't see why you think NCOs are inappropriate, though.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Given that the Schola only takes children of servants in direct service of the Imperium, I do not see a problem with that. Not all schola "orphans" have their parents actually dead, too.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Perhaps I simply like the official material and do not see as many problems with it as you do. I can perfectly understand your opinion, though - I have discovered these discussions to be jarring as well, given that people (including me) seem to enter them with a pretty solid opinion and then neither of the debaters being willing "back down" because they either prefer the setting as established by GW or because they prefer their own / BL's / FFG's interpretation of it, even if it directly contradicts the studio material.

On those grounds I agree, a discussion does not have much value.

AluminiumWolf said:

Personally, because I am pretty hardcore about consistency and official material describing the setting. I cannot answer your question for those who are argueing against the 10k, though. But I am starting to think it has something to do with Space Marines being so uber that they absolutely have to be the rarest, because we all know that the quality and value of something is measured solely by how many times it exists, right? *i*

And yes, it is tedious.

RogalDorn said:

See, GW said otherwise. It's up to you if you feel BL's/FFG's retcon is a faithful interpretation of the setting in that regard. But let's not get back on that discussion.

Blood Pact said:

It's not "my opinion" when it is clearly the opposite of what was valid for 20 years, and I am less acting as if I have an authorative word on the subject, I am acting as if GW should have it.

And I really don't see how you can call the extreme difference in damage "not limiting anything"...

But, please, do not bother. It'll get us nowhere.

I've never seen anyone try to dig up quotes to disprove a concept they like. Adherence to canon lasts precisely as long as it takes for someone to have an idea you like more.

The law of Conservation of Ninjutsu - there is only a finite amount of badass to go around, so if there are more people the badass gets more spread out. This is why when you encounter lots of ninjas they are all individually defeated easily, but if you encounter only one ninja he will be an epic level badass.

AluminiumWolf said:

Not really. Adherence to canon means respecting the sources when you are aware of them. That you don't see people trying to disprove stuff they like is likely because they think they're right, so why bother wasting time? It just gets iffy when you are presented with said sources and still choose to ignore them.

I'm certainly not entirely in the white area myself, given that I have decided to challenge certain ideas that this RPG has introduced to the setting. That said, my position is not entirely unfounded but based on the belief that no actual change has taken place. I very much expect GW to renew the things that BL/FFG have seemingly "overruled" with some of their details. On the other hand, I have already stated that I will have to adjust my stance should GW really adopt these changes rather than ignoring them. I do not think it likely, but we will see.

Not that this has anything to do with the Storm Trooper discussion. At least not until "Only War" is out and FFG goes against studio material there, too.

Lynata said:

I know exactly were that number came from the quote you said was one regiment of stormtroopers and you then extrapolated it to mean 10,000 people. Which you then said was more likely that the imperium have the same definition for a regiment of men then for absolute zero or hydrogen.

>>>I have decided to challenge certain ideas that this RPG has introduced to the setting.<<<

Yes, and lets face it, that decision has far more to do with you being hurt about Marines getting all the attention than it does about anything else.

>>

GW probably are not going to substantially change Space Marine tabletop rules until the company is in severe financial trouble and they feel they need to do something drastic. But in the fluff and videogames and rpgs and supplementary material Marines are going to keep getting more and more powerful. And I'm fine with that. I play video games. I watch movies. I see Jedi Knights kicking ass in Star Wars and want my Marines to do the same. Is that so wrong?

>>

I'd love them to change it so your army was five dudes taking on a horde of a thousand orks though. And I'd buy special deluxe Truescale Space Marines at £20 for one in a heartbeat. They could come with a massive range of extra bits.

RogalDorn said:

I extrapolated nothing. Page 21, 2nd Edition Codex Imperial Guard. "as many as ten thousand men under arms at one time". Get your facts right.

Once again I find myself accused because people don't read my posts. This seems to have become a habit around here. I understand that my little rants may come across as annoying, especially when they are accompanied by fluff quotes that might be "inconvenient" for some people's perception of the setting - but when somebody engages in a debate, I sort of do expect them to try and keep up. Especially when they strike such an aggressive tone in apparently trying to hit a presumed weak spot in my argument.

I know I shouldn't use the same ammunition in return, but **** this is growing old.

You know what? Forget it - I'll withdraw from this discussion as well. Take your idea about millions of Storm Troopers, and I take what GW gives me. I don't even know anymore why we ended up argueing about this now.

AluminiumWolf said:

Actually, I do not care about Marines anymore. The ongoing hype which seems to dominate these forums as well has killed them for me. What I do care for (or what I am "hurt" about) is when factions I still like (SoB & Guard) are supposed to suffer because of said hype as well.

And I find it fascinating that the Marine fanboys have apparently booked the moral high horse and get agitated when I complain about them taking my toys away. Wow.

Empathy seems to be a rare commodity these days. Glad that some still have it.

AluminiumWolf said:

Urgh, nothing personel but I hate true scale arguments. Background asside:

Would people really pay a lot more for mini's that were an extra 4mm tall? And how much would those true scale Nid warriors, Ogryns or your upscaled Rhino's cost.

And of course who the &^$& would bother to collect and paint the thousand strong ork army at over 10x the price?

RogalDorn said:

That is true, even as a single regiment doesn't mean they are limited in numbers like other regiements. Practically impossible to be if they created on Hundreds (?) if Scholar Progenium across the galaxy.

But that doesn't mean there are millions either, they still only turn up on a battlefield in small numbers to perform specific objectives, nothing has been said that they are fielded in large numbers to fight entire battles themselves. Even if there were only 10,000 that would still mean they could be at 1000 battlefields at once as long as you only send 10 at a time.

In conclusion I've no frikin idea how many there are and haven't seen anything that says specifically. They are badass though and being trained from birth (or nearly birth) and hand picked makes them frikin awesome.

Blood Pact said:

In the British Army the Regiment is an administrative and historical title, rather than the name of an functional unit. Fighting units are organised in Battalions (3 fighting companies plus support). Most regiments are made up of a single battalion, but there are several made up of more (Parachute Regiment has 4 and the new Royal Scottish Regiment has 5, for example) so the regiment is not a military formation in itself. Now, the Imperial Guard Regiment has some similarties. The size of a regiment is not regular; the 2nd edition fluff had it varying from 2-6000 (roughly Brigade sized), and more recent fluff has regiments ranging from battalion to at least a division in size, and as I said earlier I am fairly sure I remember larger.

On the "depleted deuterium" of the bolt round: there is a theoretical explosive (as I believe the term is referring to the explosive, rather than the AP cap) which is referred to as metallicised hydrogen (or something like that). It could be rationalised as being that?

The 10k figure almost certainly came about due to one (or both) of two reasons. Firstly GW has always had a problem with numbers. Its a common problem with science fiction settings. An example I can think of is the old Damoclese Gulf Crusade background, which had a quite from the warmaster boasting about the 500,000 men at his command, which were tasked to conquer the entirety of the Tau Empire. Now, they did underestimate the Tau, but seeing as the Germans had 3 million men ready for the invasion of Russia (ie the conquest of a small portion of one planet, rather than the conquest of several star systems) the problem is quite obvious. 500,000 soldiers is a lot. Just for conquering planets with anything approaching the population of Earth it is... well, it barely registers. The other thing was that apparently when writing 2nd edition the writers were wanting to play down the large scale that has been built up in the background towards the end of 1st edition (presumably with things like Space Marine, the first epic game).

Lynata said:

As many does not mean only or thats the max. Come up with a quote were it specifically says they can only have 10,000 stormtroopers or otherwise its going to be in the long list of "cannon" that goes under stuff thats probably been abandoned like the Emperor being a shaman or the sensei. More logical to assume that the person who wrote that that thought it sounded impressive any didn't think about the implications like a unit of 10,000 elite normal humans in a galaxy of millions of worlds would be unattainable unless you were heavily augmenting hell the books make it seem as if stormtroopers are much more common than that and moreso with only 10,000 of them noone but a few would know about them.

Ultimately its not going to matter because your refusal to deviant from canon even when it has been shown that cannon can be outright not only illogical but scientfically impossible makes it impossible to argue with you.

Scale is a big issue that a lot of people, writers especially, can't get their head around.

10,000 elite troopers are significant on a planetary and system scale. They may be talked about on a sub-sector scale or as part of a crusade fleet. Inside of their sector few would know who they are. At the segmentum level 10,000 men of any caliber become insignificant. Outside their home segmentum, no one would bother being aware of them.

Astartes are different. They are religious icons of the Emperors will given form and many a source say that the only contact anyone has with them is their statues, paintings, and stained glass windows in Imperial buildings.