Lynata said:

Oh yeah, where the heck is that from? that can't be even close to right. Of course for me 'storm trooper' just means elite IG with carapace armor so it's possible there's only 10k Storm Troopers but millions of guys with carapace and parachutes who aren't called Storm Troopers.

Kid Kyoto said:

Oh, nvm - I just realized this is aimed at your list whilst I initially thought you were further inquiring about the deployment numbers from the SoB Codex... I blame the lack of sleep.

Kid Kyoto said:

That would be the Imperial Guard Codex. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Storm_Trooper

I'm not sure how common carapace or hellguns are, but given the Imperial Guard's general focus of quantity > quality, I'd not be surprised at all if they would generally prefer people with lasguns simply because they are so much cheaper and easier in terms of maintenance and training. If those Stormtroopers are truly sent to hot zones all over the galaxy (similar to SoB) to temporarily attach themselves to existing units for as long as they are needed, a single Regiment of elite troops could suffice to address the needs of the Guard ... and explain their presence in the Tabletop.

That said, there are also Grenadiers, who are not as good as real Stormtroopers but come quite close and are more numerous. Maybe this is what you were looking for.

So I'll first point out that I'm a complete and utter WH40k noob. Always was interested in the TT game, but where I live it is rather impractical to find another living player. Thus I truely fell in love with the 'verse when I picked up the DoW games (note, the first one I picked up with Soul Storm and fell in love with the SoB) and now have moved on to the RPG. Reading this thread has been highly interesting to me. I orginally started reading it because I wanted to know how to integrate a SoB into a DW game (as 50% of the gaming group I run is female, and I'm not sure they would all be keen on playing as boys with toys).

So about equipment and armor in this setting... what effect do the machine spirits have upon it? Are there other sigils that also have an affect upon such items? I'm just wondering that if during all this debate upon weapon weight and bullet sizes, something was lost that really makes these weapons different from real world physics.

I think it will be highly interesting to see how the next DH book that introduces the Grey Knights deals with the problems mentioned in this thread. The product advertising mentions that you'd be able to create Grey Knight PCs that are compatible with DH. To me, compatible also means that it has to be somewhat balanced as well, but I may be wrong about that. If GK can truely go back and forth between DW and DH games, then i do think that question about game scale will have to be answered.

Unable to find a way to send private messages (I could just be too tired to find it) and Sister Lynata already here...could someone point me towards the better sources of info on the SoB?

Lynata said:

It is overpowered but the good news is that if you it something around 2d10+2 or 2d10+3, you can use DW opponents very well against it, it won't be too weak. More 'just about right'. 2d10+2 does have an average damage of 13, not accouting for RF/Tearing. Standard mortal Bolter does have 10.5. It's not too high for an Astartes upgrade, I think. And even if that was too much difference for you, you could add +1 to all Bolt weapons in DH without totally unbalancing the game also. In that case it wouldn't be much better than the Sacristan Bolter either - then 1d10+7 (12.5 average).

If I was you I would consider making that distinction in case you want to integrate DH and DW without toning down enemies.

Lynata said:

Ballistic Skill and Leadership(=Int, Per, WP, or FEL in 40K RP), I think.

Lynata said:

Of course but a novice Sister is probably superior to a novice Guardsman. Just as a regular Battle Sister is superior to a regular Guardsman (better stats in the TT). And I think a Rank 1 Guardsman is still pretty much a conscript as the Rank says. Perhaps with some limited experience but overall not a true veteran. (Swift Attack, the sign of of being a veteran due to being the TT A2 equivalent) comes at rank 3

It's either that or you will probably have to stretch being a novice sister across several ranks. Or lower the rank for full battle sisters at which point it becomes a question if you are committed to have Astartes-grade equipment just marginally better than mortal weaponry. If you want that, then DW's epic scale will have to be toned down across the board or you'll have to pass on integration of DH and DW.

Just some thoughts.

Alex

Xphile said:

Well, the Machine Spirit remains pretty mystified and can be anything you want, from an integrated computer interface to sheer superstition to actual "magic". But it is good that you bring up the difference to real world physics, as a lot of people argue with contemporary weapons and their recoil, or what modern day people can do or not - whilst completely forgetting that bolt weapons work differently from current handguns and that, in 40k, people are also not subjected to as many limitations.

For example, the effects of Power Armour: [Image]

Or the fact that the first-stage propellant of a bolt weapon only serves to push the bullet out of the barrel, at which point its own rocket motor takes over acceleration without letting the user suffer additional recoil. This in turn means that the bolt requires less energy to be launched, resulting in less recoil, in turn having the weapon require less strength from its users. Caliber .75 pistols have been standard issue at some point in our real world already ...

For your game, and considering that Marine weapons in Dark Heresy had the exact same average damage as non-Marine weapons, I'd say simply use the ranged weapon stats from the DW book - that would be in line with the fluff from the WH Codex. Do keep in mind that your players' opponents will still pose a greater challenge, as the characters will still lack the added strength and, even more importantly, the toughness of a Marine.

I'm currently writing a more detailed version of the Sisters' Angel-pattern Power Armour that would include a more comprehensive list of subsystems that were mentioned in the fluff, somewhat similar to how the Marine armour received an extensive description in the DW book. If you're interested, just say so and I'll upload it somewhere. It's still not as good as the Astartes armour, but for a DW game it'd be slightly more useful than the "stripped down" BoM variant.

Xphile said:

I hope so, too - in my opinion, the RPG should try to mirror the TT and its fluff as best as possible instead of creating a "parallel universe". I'm eager to see how things will work with the GKs in DH and CSMs in BC.

Xphile said:

Unfortunately, SoB fluff is few and far between - but if you want to have a list of what I'd consider "required reading" for anyone into Sisters, I'd point you towards the 2nd Edition SoB Codex, the 5th Edition WH Codex, the novel "Faith & Fire" from James Swallow, the graphic novel "Daemonifuge" from Kev Walker and Jim Campbell, and the short stories "The Invitation" from Dan Abnett plus "Daemonblood" from Ben Counter. There's also some more fluff in a couple White Dwarf articles (#227, #275), but you likely won't get those issues anymore today. And there was also an interesting Chapter Approved article, but that kind of stuff was lost when GW revamped their website into the crappy online store it is today.

Oooorrr ... if you have any direct questions - just ask here!

ak-73 said:

DH and DW already buff and tone down enemies and equipment when moving from one system to another. I'd rather go along with this and essentially make two sets of stats (one for DH, one for DW) as well than going against the fluff.

To clarify, I never intended to pull DW stats into DH. I think they don't make sense for DW and I certainly don't believe it would be good to a DH game as they would only unbalance things even more there.

I see nothing in the (current, valid, the one that matters, 5 ed.) IG codex about there being 10,000 stormtroopers, at least not in the storm troopers entry.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Fluff is valid until contradicted - at least that's my understanding of how things work. Else we would miss out on a lot of background, especially concerning how the amount of fluff in many of the books has gotten fewer and fewer from one edition to the other.

Also, having just taken a look at the 'dex, the entry you mean does include the sentence: "It is rare that the entirety of the Storm Trooper regiment will fight in one place. Instead, individual companies are sent to bolster the strength of the Imperial Guard present, providing a core of ultra-trained squads that can be deployed as needed."

Note that it says "the regiment", not "a".

Lynata said:

Well, it does seem to fit the latest approach to the fluff generally. The most recent think I read had people dying because a Space Marine bolt passed by within one metre (didn't explode or anything, just flew by). Now, this is the same author who ha autocannons impacting with a force of 60 kilotonnes, so I would take it with a pinch of salt, but the current trend is to blather about how massive Space Marine bolters are (First Heretic had something about the barrel of an Ultramarine's bolter being as big as someone's head). Part of the problem is that any place where solid numbers are given still state it as being .75 inch, same as the 4th edition codex. If Dark Heresy had said nothing about calibre (or hadn't insisted Space Marine bolts were bigger, rather than just being more powerful) then it could jave been presumed that normal ones were smaller than this (even though the models of Space Marine and Guard bolters have always been identical.

On Two Weapon Wielder: It looks to me that Black Industries intended that characters that didn't take it would not be able to attack with two different weapons in one turn. In fact I dont think they were meant to stack with Swift Attack and Lightning attack either, so for melee characters they were just plain worse than those two. I think it was mainly there for Gunfighter types, as the expected choice for melee powerhouses were the multiple attack talents. Of course the Fantasy Flight Errata changes that (including for Dark Heresy).

In both the groups I play in the Assault Marines are mental. The Rank 1 one outkills the rest of us by a mile if it isn't hordes, and in the other game the rank 2 (Blood Angel) generally also does horde damage which matches (and occasionally exceeds) the Devastator.

Sisters of Battle: while the 2nd edition stuff did give them only about 30,000 total, GW seems to have been moving away from that. I like those daftly small numbers, which emphasise how rare they are. Of course people should remember most planets are not meant to be Necromunda like hives, and most wars are not meant to be Armageddon style massive campaigns. Most battles and campaigns are fairly small brush war like things, and many planets are meant to be almost Star Trek like in their total lack of people. GW just focuses on the massive campaigns as they are easier to sell, so things don't need to number in huge figures. However, Sisters are hinted at having more members than they used to. The way both FFG (in BoM) and GW have casually talked about deployments of hundreds of sisters makes it difficult to think otherwise. The roughly 50 odd sisters at the Abbey of Dawn on Iocanthos was meant to be a significant figure in itself (and pretty much the entire deployment for the entire sector), but now there are apparently forces numbering the hundreds at at least 1 location, if not more. Unless there is a massively disproportionate deployment to the Sector (which is largely peaceful) my guess is that the intention is now that they number far more than the previous figure of a few tens of thousands. It has gone the way of the 10,000 Storm Troopers (a figure I don't like from 2nd edition... its just far too small. Sisters can be that rare, but not Storm Troopers. It would make them rarer than Space Marines), ie phased out in non explicit ways. Don't think either has been said explicitly, but in the case of Storm Troopers the simple fact they don't give the old 10,000 men figure in the latest codex is telling, as they still mention that they all belong to one regiment and so much of the background is otherwise just lifted straight from the 2nd edition codex. It's omission is in itself a retcon (while I accept that's not the way it normally works, but there is no way to say why they have done this... unless they want to stick to the number but are ashamed of mentioning it, which would be a bizarre choice).

borithan said:

.75 in Dark Heresy still - but let's not get back into that discussion.

borithan said:

Not at all. These deployment numbers have always been that big. It just means that (apart from their VIP escort and guard duties for which they send out sole Sisters, pairs or perhaps a single squad) the Sisters always move out in force and concentrate their numbers on a few spots in the galaxy - not unlike the Space Marines, just even less common.

"These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed."

Keep in mind that the Armageddon War was a fairly recent event by GW, and even there they announced that it had such a big impact on the Sororitas' numbers that the Order of the Martyred Lady was reduced to just about 200 Sisters Militant. Which fits perfectly to the above description from the 2nd edition Codex. Give them a decade or so and they'll be back to their old strength, as it has happened countless times before. Unless the 5th edition Rulebook really is an indication that the Orders Militant have been reduced to just three. We'll get to know next year.

borithan said:

If you mean the Jericho Reach, that is quite normal for an Imperial Crusade, as quoted above. Their numbers simply mean that the Sisters cannot participate in more than two dozen Crusades simultaneously - at least not in force. I am also not aware of any more numerous concentration of Battle Sisters than the mysterious Mission on Iocanthos.

borithan said:

A single Regiment is still a single Regiment and thus has a numerical maximum figure. In the end, what you want to believe or how you handle it in your games is up to you, of course - but I would deem it a mistake to propagate a perceived retcon when the actual sources still point to the other side.

Yes, they would be fewer than Marines, but given that this has always been so I do not really see a problem with that. They're simply a very specialized formation and as such there is no "minimum quota" they would have to fulfill. As previously mentioned the Guard has other, more numerous troops which are almost as good, anyways. Perhaps it would help to compare them not to Marines but to Marine Terminators, given that we are talking about the elite of a given organization. Similar to how there are apparently only ~4.000 Seraphim in the galaxy.

I think an issue here is that Lynata is sticking to archaic fluff that, while it has not been explicitly contradicted, does not mesh with the newer fluff in spirit if not in letter. Since the majority of people who are interested in this universe are not aware of the existence of this older fluff, some of Lynata's statements come across as countersensical, because they do not make sense within the context of the universe as currently presented. E.g., the Sisters are described as protecting pilgrim routes, which is completely impossible given the numbers previously given for them. 10,000 Storm Troopers is equally absurd.

Lynata you can interpret the 40K universe the way you want, which is fine, but you can't expect other people to agree with you by pulling out 20-year-old statements written when the universe was conceived rather differently. Conceived largely as a comedy universe that wasn't supposed to make sense by the way.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Still, I do not expect anyone to agree to anything anymore - not here, not after the bolter discussion. The only thing I will do is point out the things GW has written and which have still not been contradicted. I am very much aware that some users on this forum cultivate a vastly different interpretation of the setting.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Since this thread was about Bolt Guns can someone point me in the direction of the Declearation of them (and which ones) gaining Tearing?

Shockwave said:

The official errata declared all bolt weapons of the Dark Heresy Core Rulebook to be Tearing, as are all bolt weapons in the Rogue Trader Core Rulebook.

Personally, I think that this would include the bolt weapons in the Inquisitor's Handbook as well (or rather all bolt weapons in general, regardless of where they appear), but as the errata only mentioned the Core Rulebook, opinion on this amongst the community is somewhat split.

That said, the Inquisitor's Handbook's combined weapon tables also include the Core Rulebook's bolt weapons, and they are missing Tearing as well - so it is pretty much a fact that the errata is incomplete in this regard.

Well it would appear that I'm blind has hell, I have that Erratta printed and in my Lap. I'm unable to find it.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

While I can belive that GW is going to change their mind on the numbers of Storm Troopers (I really don't know enough about SoB's to comment on them) I have to say, I've still not seen anything that contradicts this yet.

There aren't Storm Trooper armies (Inquisitorial Storm Troopers doing count), or any fluff that says they were fielded in anything other than a few at time. Even in Apoclypse games they have one entry and that is to field 3 squads and yet there are now 3 codex's for single space marine chapters and they are fielded as full armies.

Lynata said:

Lynata said:

Wait a minute, didn't I say the same **** thing on page 3? (though my quotes got all jumbled in that post)

Blood Pact said:

Yes... yes I did.

And didn't you dismiss the idea?

... yes, yes you did.

You also keep going on, back and forth, saying you agree that the TT is a horrible guide for the RPG, and then turning around and insisting that the RPG should be more faithful to how things appear on the tabletop. Along with how we're not playing Space Marines as they should be, in comparison to other stuff, but bull Movie Marines! who are so overpowered it's meant to be a joke.

I've still got another 5 pages of this bull thread to crawl through though, so bear with me...

Blood Pact said:

I think you're mixing something up. Just because I am suggesting a solution for how others could try to make sense of the aforementioned disparity does not mean that I am accepting it. I stand by my opinion, and I have said so multiple times, if my posts would be read more carefully instead of just being skimmed through. Actually, I have already referred your post on reply #103 on page 7. And I touched upon this with reply #42 on page 3 as well.

But to sum what I have actually expressed up for you: I do not agree with the explanation, but have pointed out it is the least absurd one.

Blood Pact said:

I have said that the TT isn't an accurate representation. This does not mean it should be dismissed entirely. Opinions such as "horrible" came from others. Again: Read my posts more carefully, please. For example, I have already explained this with reply #42 on page 3. Or simply ignore me outright - our past discussions were not truly productive, were they? I doubt this will change.

Blood Pact said:

Oh, don't bother. I've given up discussing the issue of bolt weapons here.

Shockwave: Page 8 in the PDF, on the right side. Or just search for the word "bolt".

Lynata said:

No, I didn't mean the Jericho Reach. I mean the Calixis sector. From what I remember Blood of Martyrs has various deployments in the Calixis sector which ends up suggesting there are several hundred Sisters in the Sector. Piety of Seth has the abbey of Saint Elena's Mount which has about 100 sisters (though I have realised only a handful of these might be Battle Sisters. The "Shrine of the Seventeen Martyrs" near Malfi has been enlarged to a full "preceptory" (though I will admit that doesn't clarify how many are based there.

Actually Regiment doesn't really have a maximum numerical figure. Yes, the 2nd edition regiment averaged 2-6000 (aside from the Storm Troopers), but things have moved on from that. The regiment, much like the British Army, is pretty much an administrative unit, rather than a definition of a particular military force. Regiments range from the old-fashioned 2-6000 to those numbering in the 10s of thousands (and I think one of the Valhallan ones may be on record as numbering at about 100,000). Especially with the way the Storm Troopers operate, there is no real limit on their numbers purely because they obstensibly belong to the same regiment. Now, the incredibly small numbers for something like the sisters is ok, as thy are... something faily unique. However, 10,000 odd men as the elite of a force that numbers in the billions (at the very least) is just... well daft. GW has always had a problem with numers, as that figure attests to, but the dropping of it (they mentioned the old fluff about being from one regiment etc, but leave out the old numbers. For one, they couldn't be the largest regiment with 10,000 men anymore) by them suggests they realised how daft it is. The fact that there is no solid number given instead just suggests to me that they are trying to avoid further embarassing themselves by messing it up again.

Lynata said:

Thanks

borithan said:

Did they, actually? I only recall them saying they are somehow just much better. *shrugs*

borithan said:

A Preceptory is an organizational unit between 200 and 1.000 Sisters. As per BoM, this is now the largest concentration of Battle Sisters in the Sector, with the only other concentration of note being Palatine Rhiannon's Mission on Iocanthus. Do note that both the Preceptory of the Bloody Rose as well as the Mission of the Ebon Chalice are very recent developments in the Sector and this "escalation" is - as the book seems to hint at - a preparation for something brewing in the background. They are not there by default, they are there because they're getting ready to do something. I have no idea if this has to do with the Jericho Reach (essentially using the Sector as a staging ground) or a potential plot for future developments in the Calixis Sector itself, though.

Take away both Orders and you're left with perhaps two dozen Sisters Militant, half of whom guarding the Ecclesiarchy's headquarters on Scintilla whilst the others are patrolling pilgrim routes or serve as bodyguard to one of the Cardinals. That said, the presence of the Bloody Rose and the Ebon Chalice may have also been meant as a potential background for player characters.

Piety of Seth is indeed "just" Dialogous, Hospitaller and Famulous, which would mean no Battle Sisters present there (take note that all Sisters receive combat training so they do not require protection by the Militant Orders - in fact, the defence of the Sainted Encarmine Hospital on Tranch was conducted solely by Sisters Hospitaller).

Good call on mentioning the Shrine of the Seventeen Martyrs, though. I need to keep that in mind.

As a sidenote: I'm actually surprised that FFG didn't come up with a new Militant Ordo Minoris instead of relying on the "big six" - similar to how they created a new Marine Chapter just for the Sector. Given how the Orders Minoris were explained in the C:WH they would feel less "alien" and could have been at home in the Sector since the Angevin Crusade by essentially "splitting off" from its parent Ordo Maioris to form a local convent.

borithan said:

The Imperial Guard also knows Legions and Army Groups. There is no real reason to call something a Regiment when it is made up of numbers vastly exceeding it, especially considering that it is a specialist formation that may well have gotten its own unique term (like Corps?). The Storm Trooper Regiment with its ~10.000 or so men is already oversized, but not to a degree where it would sound stupid. Would you really deem the term "Regiment" appropriate for something that would, according to some posters, consist of millions of men?

I have no problem with the idea that the "creme de la creme" of the Imperial Guard is a pretty small number of people. It's not like Storm Troopers are the only elite, anyways. They're just even better than the Grenadiers who are considered elite as well yet may well number in the millions that seem to be "required" in the eyes of some.

When you have a force that consists of billions upon billions of people you can still just set the bar for Storm Troopers so incredibly high that you end up with 10.000 people hitting the mark. Or they simply have, at some point in history, set the 10.000 as a solid goal and have, since the creation of this formation, only ever recruited the best of the best whenever they needed to replace its losses, whereas the second-best "only" become Grenadiers? Come to think of it, this would be a perfect example of just another archaic leftover from the days of the Great Crusade when the Emperor had just united Earth and Mars and set out to reconquer mankind's territory. I'm pretty sure that, back then, the Imperial Guard was not as large as it is now.

Shockwave said:

Gladly!

This thread is completely out of control, and yet I can't help but stoke the fire...

The point about Astartes bolters and Sororitas bolters is not that you can't make up justifications for the difference in power, but that the difference in power level is not supported by the decades of background material. I don't care if it "makes sense to you", or if you can quote actual firearm stats to back up your opinion (how much "realism" should we apply to a game where characters can Dodge laser beams, which move at the speed of freakin' light?!), but that everything that has come before WH40KRP says that a bolter is a bolter is a bolter. Lynata produced an actual GW quote that says that Sororitas equipment is entirely comparable to that of the Astartes- give me a specific quote that contridicts this (from outside WH40KRP- the quote from the Deathwatch rulebook that says that boltguns and power armour were invented specifically for Space Marines, and all non-Astartes versions are cheap knock-offs, is flatly wrong. It has long been established that bolters and power armour are products of pre-Imperial SDT technology- a point reiterated in the fairly recent novel Horus Rising, where Space Marines encounter an isolated human empire and are surprised that their troops are also armed with bolters and power armour, due to having SDTs of their own. In fact, instead of saying that these "mortal-scaled" versions of wargear are inferior, the lead character voices a healthy respect for them...).

Seriously, give me one non-BI/FFG quote that counterdicts the established tradition of all bolters being roughly comparable, and I'll shut up- and I mean specific quotes, not "Well, my interpretation is..." or "It only makes sense that...".

Anyone?

Adeptus-B said:

I would say i'm sorry to do this, but I would be lying.

"Do not try to dodge the laser beam, for that is impossible. Instead try to realise the truth.

What truth?

That having a gun pointed at you is a bad thing. Then you will find that it is not the laser beam you dodge, but the gun."

Lynata said:

I have to thankyou, ya know. I just realized all the arguement I ever needed to shoot this bull down has been staring me straight in the face.

A Scribe with SB 2 can fire an Angelus, or any other bolt weapon for that matter, without trouble for the same reason he can swing a greatsword or other heavy and cumbersome weapon.

The writers didn't want the game to get bogged down over quibbling with stupid little details like that really don't serve any purpose but to limit what people can play, as opposed to actually making the game more fun.

So if you want Strength requirements for weapons, I suggest you housefule them... for everything, cause Bolters really aren't the only problem, or do you think a chainsaw-sword is going to be light? If you're going to suck the fun out of the game with nonsense like this, why not turn the vacuum up to high power and get it all.

Blood Pact said:

So why introduce this new and rather un-fluffly idea about two different sets of weapons and quality levels, then, given that they "don't serve any purpose but to limit what people can play"? Very arbitrary.

PS: The Sacristan actually has a Strength requirement. I thought it to be quite fitting, though its drawbacks are still a bit on the forgiving side. Too bad this is the single one instance where this idea was applied. But who knows, maybe we'll see it again in a 2nd edition of the RPG, in a broader scale.