Lynata said:

40K minis and art are so inconsistent in scale and proportion it's laughable. You cannot take any miniature as being "accurate" in scale since they do not use an accurate scale to produce them. GW uses, supposedly, "Heroic" 28 mm. By throwing "Heroic" in there it lets them be concerned only with what looks good, toss consistency out the door, and only care about what fits on a certain size base. Take some time to look at any company that does actually sculpt in 28mm and you will quickly see how horribly disproportionate everything GW makes is.

If you want to take GW minis as "accurate" then most every human is well over 6 feet tall, afflicted with some form of gigantism, and space marines are little more than short basketball players.

Maybe so, but I'm still hard-pressed to see where people are taking the idea from that Astartes ammunition is so much larger than everyone elses when every single official source - including the Deathwatch book itself - clearly shows that it is, actually, pretty small. I never said GW miniatures are accurate, I was just pointing out that it could mean something when this has been a consistency for decades.

From what it looks like to me, people are trying to find explanations to justify this weird "caste system" in the RPG and then turn to theorized excuses because they can't find anything else in 20 years of fluff - because up until now there was no difference. The only thing that would remotely make sense is the difference in material quality or type.

Lynata said:

But you have to concide that space marine bolters are significant larger then mortal bolters. That could mean alot of things Also I just flipped through my deathwatch and dark heresy books they never list ammo wieght for either weapon. Nor do they every give a scale drawing of both space marine bolts and mortal bolt shells. Hence we do not know if they are the same thing in fact the angelus you keep using to justify that normal people can fire boltguns suggests that their are significant differences. We are free to draw those conclusions and in the context we are given it makes sense. And this may be a retcon god knows it happens all the time in 40k may I remind you the the sensei .

p.s. Don't try to debate someone and then attempt to bolster your argument by attacking them. Someone could just as easily say something like I looks like you are only bothered by this because girls can do anything boys can do and its not fair that Space marines are better then the Sisters of battle. It over simplies both sides arguments and when you want to change someone's mind you don't attack them.

I agree with Lynata, the first book in which i read that exist 2 types of bolter, is Dark Heresy.

RogalDorn said:

That said, normal people's boltguns are still bigger than Marine bolt pistols. And pistols / boltguns use the same ammunition.

RogalDorn said:

RogalDorn said:

Buuut you are right. I've become way too entrenched in this debate and it makes absolutely no sense to keep going. I've been an idiot for not having stopped a week ago, and I should have noticed way sooner that it's no use argueing anything that concerns the Almighty Astartes. I'll just lean back now and wait for the new SoB Codex, expecting that it will once again renew and strengthen the equipment equality that has been suspended in this RPG.

I was always of the opinion that the Bolters in Necromunda were knock offs despite it using the 2nd edition ruleset.

Also, something which I always seemed to be aware of is that the Ecclesiarchy were notably at odds with the beliefs of the Astartes and Mechanicus. I've thought that for YEARS, can't remember where I got that impression but i did and as No_1_H3r3 said if the imperium (as it exsisted at the time) was out of disfavour where did Vandire get his "gifts" for his brides?

That particular section has a lot of parallels to the madness of Hitler in regards to what he thought he could do and what he actually could do. So Vandire wanted Bolters and PA for his brides, he wasn't going to be getting them from the Astartes and Mechancius and who was going to tell him that he couldn't? Solution that people did so that they didn't get hanged was to come up with stuff that looked the part.

Lynata said:

What? Where the hells are you getting that from?

At what point has GW defined that? I've never encountered such a notion except in the insistence of the community, which is invariably based upon the convoluted system that Lucasfilm uses for Star Wars canon.

As far as I'm concerned, you are assuming this to be true, when there is nothing but wishful thinking to back up the claim. Indeed, I even posted a link to an article written by a Black Library author - as well as my own testimony from personal experience (which everyone seems to have ignored) - which refuted the idea of their being tiered canon in regards to 40k or Warhammer Fantasy.

Of course, that might be a little bit too inconvenient for you.

Shockwave said:

It was not until Thor reformed the Ecclesiarchy that the Mechanicus machinery used for constructing the armour and the weapons was permanently loaned to the Imperial Cult. Of course, this should change nothing about the machinery itself, nor the products they churn out.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

To quote from your own link: "What matters is respecting the source material, contributing to it, and sticking to the theme."

In my opinion and in regards to bolt weapons, this is an area where the RPG failed. Not that I wish to discuss bolt weapons any further.

Lynata said:

Ammo wieght is very important do some research on rockets remember bolters are not like bullets their more like rocket propelled grenades. Second by the rpgs definition standard bolt pistols from the astartes are just as large as normal boltguns for everyone else. In fact the deathwatch rules flat out adress this by saying that you treat weapons from the astartes as one size bigger when wielded by mortals ie a bolt pistol is a basic weapon for everyone else. They never give sizes of guns beyond that rule so I don't know how your claiming that the bolt shells are the same length or the guns are the same size specifically because all the drawing are obviously drawn to be smaller. A 75. Caliber bolt is bigger then a 50 caliber bullet and those things would take up half a page if drawn to proper scale.

I understand your frustration I hated they way this game treats autofire and lasguns being worse than autoguns. I also dislike how they make plasma and melta useless compared to bolters. But instead of forcing the rpg to fit my view I modified my view to fit the world. I had a similiar issue you had with the difference in power armour. So I instead of making changes to the system I instead modified my view so that the armor class differnce is due to the fact that Space Marines all have the black carpace armour so essentially their wearing another piece of armour underneath adding to their armor class.

RogalDorn said:

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying the shells in the book are depicted in a 1:1 manner, I'm saying they are rather short in general. If you want, you can take a ruler and measure their length - given that we know the projectile diameter is 19mm you could then determine the projectile's length.

Not an extremely accurate measurement, I know - I had just thrown it in here because some people seem to believe that an Astartes bolt round is as long as a baby's arm or something, given that we frequently see comparisons between cal .50 pistol rounds and cal .50 BMG as some sort of justification as if that should apply here, too. GW also produced a replica bolt shell pendant at one time.

Not that any of this would matter anymore. I don't feel particularly inclined to continue the discussion, given that its level of productivity has reached the bottom long ago. I'm sure we have all wasted enough time and energy here.

Lynata said:

The only reason the .50 AE and .50 BMG kept being brought up was your insistence that caliber was an all defining measurement. These are two easily identifiable bullets that are the same caliber and yet radically different. My view, and I believe most others like me, is that the "Astartes Grade" ammo is the equivalent of a magnum vs a normal round, not anything the length of a babies arm.

ak-73 said:

No, you gave me tips to fight hordes..

"Against hordes always use Multiple Attacks if you can (wielding two weapons? you don't need TWW for that) or if you can't, use All-out Attack for that +20.

Once Hormagaunts are below mag 20, they cease to be a big threat. You need to shoot them down below 20 before they charge or else you are in grave danger."

I don't really see how this addresses any points in my reply.

As for the TWW, I must have forgotten that for DH, but still the old rule is in DW book and the DW errata is silent about it. Not sure who said otherwise, but unless it is in an official errata I don't consider it official rules, and probably not my GM either. In any case, still pretty hard against single creatures. BTW with Ambidexterity it is -10 primary and -30 off hand (regardless that you are not suppose to HAVE an off-hand). A -30 WS attack against a single hormogaunt is very unlikely to succeed (given that we have about average 40 WS), and if any of them hit it can be dodged, so feint is still the best option.

If the GM allows the DH errata rule against hordes it will be mechanically sound to use two bolters at once. -10/-30 is not so bad when counting Full Auto +20, size +30 and short range +10, thus +50/+30 total, both attacks causing additional hits because of explosive, both attacks causing more because of multiple hits, and if you have Metal Storm rounds in each gun.... it will be close to what the Devestator can perform. If with BS 46 you roll 60 on the first attack and 30 on the second you get 4+4 hits... Each having Blast 2, thus 16 Magnitude+2 for explosive.... 18 Magnitude! Mr Devestator will on the same first roll get 4 DoS (5 hits), which count as double because of Unrelenting devestation, +1d5 for Blast, thus maxiumum 15(+1 Ex)= 16 Magnitude.

In order to get all 10 hits the Devestator still needs to roll 16 or less, which is not likely. The rule about max +60 to any roll, combined with the tons of bonuses you get to hot hordes with FA weapons, means that multiple weapons are more effective. The penalties for not having TWW is compensated for easily, and it's easier to get 3 DoS with 2 weapons than it is to get 9 DoS with one.

But I digress... Yes it is well that Assault Marines should have SOME use in a squad since they are usually outshined by the other specialties, and since ranged beats melee in general. Although going by fluff every Tactical Marine has at one point served as both Devestator and Assault Marine, so we should also have some more melee capability, even if devoted Assault Marines should become superior very soon as the ranks progress.

Friend of the Dork said:

In DW Hormagaunts are troops-tier enemies, they usually appear as hordes.

Friend of the Dork said:

Well, then you don't.

Friend of the Dork said:

Your choice. The Two-Weapon Fighting section is a sloppy mess anyway.

Friend of the Dork said:

You are wrong again, I am afraid. The talent 'Ambidextrous' negates the -20 off-hand penalty, as per page 113 (DW). As mentioned page 246 does a sloppy job.

Friend of the Dork said:

Or you make a half move backwards, ignore free hack, shoot it point blank, move on. That's if you have BS much higher than WS (Devs).

Friend of the Dork said:

Allowed by RAW, not allowed by most GMs in the DW forum. Or at least severely restricted. Gets worse if two Storm Bolters/Flamers/etc get used.

Friend of the Dork said:

Behold a Rank 7+ Blood Angel Assault Marine. The things he can do are unspeakable and he does not get outshined by ranged combat. Also: Storm Warden Assault and Thunder Charge. Horde killer. Another combination that is great against multiple elite-tier enemies is Space Wolves plus anything that adds parried (Stalwart Defence, Tactical Spacing, etc.) due to Counter-attack.

As for melee vs ranged: would you rather play a Dev fighting a Chaos marine with jump-pack and swift/lightning attack or an Assault Marine fighting a Chaos Marine witha Heavy Bolter? Unless the terrain was flat and the engagement was at long distances, I'd pick the Assault.

Alex

Lynata said:

Well, you have to determine for yourself how many concessions you want to make to the game aspect. But with Sisters power armour and Astartes-grade bolt weaponry, she'll be too powerful for a Rank 1 RT group or a Rank 5 Acolyte cell. Conversely, she might not be powerful enough for a Rank 1 DW campaign. Something to keep in mind.

Realistically I would put her somewhere between 5 and 9, aka somewhere around 7. In a DH game this means spending most of the time as a Novice sister, working towards full ascension as Battle Sister (or other orders). In a RT this means ascending to Battle Sister status more quickly (about Rank 3, doesn't take too long to get there due to higher xp rewards). In DW it means probably having become a veteran sister. Sounds about right to my ear.

Lynata said:

DH-level Bolt Weapons can be issued as training weapons. I assume to a Novitia who is close to getting promoted to Battle Sister this should be not off. In fact I think you might want to consider a whole rank dedicated to Battle Sister applicant status for those who branch into that direction. It would represent intensified combat training and final preparations and tests before making it there.

Lynata said:

Then you have to make a choice: either make the full-blown Battle Sisters less powerful and introduce them at an earlier rank (4 or 5) or keep them in the rank 7 to 9 range and give up the idea that they can be made into a regular DH career. I don't think they can while keeping their power level in accordance with the fluff. A Battle Sister with her elite training and superior equipment should outclass rank 4 Acolytes by a notch.

As for comparison to the IG: a Battle Sister is a troops selection, right? And it's clearly superior to the IG troops selection of average guardsmen, right? So Novice Sisters should be at least equal to an experienced guardsman and superior to a novice IG trooper.

Lynata said:

I am not really familiar with the 40K RP rules for the other orders. If the militant orders are overpowered due to their equipment, I suggest you add to their branch at least one additional rank before ascending to full status. 'Battle Sister Novitia' or something like that.

Alex

Argh too many quotes... anyway my example was a special occasion where we fought some Hormogaunts as single creatures, something the GM said was to give us a chance to see how badass we were. Thus your response had very little to do with what I was talking about. But that's not that important.

As for dual wielding with Ambidexterity talent only I was reading right from the DH errata, where it says you get -10/-30. -20/-20 is if you only have the TWW talent instead. The Ambidexterity talent also allows you to ignore the -20 for shooting with your off hand when not dual-wielding, for example when you use a sword in your hand to parry with and a pistol in the left hand to shoot with.

Rank 7 marine? Yeah at that point I don't doubt that the melee beast do well, just like a high-rank assassin in DH can be awesome with the right talents, easily outdamaging those only good at shooting at the same rank. Also at that point I bet they have Power Fists and equally awesome weapons. No, I was referring to the low-rank differences between the specialties, where the Assault only has chainsword and many talents.

ak-73 said:

Ah, a misunderstanding. I do not really differentiate between "Astartes-grade and Non-Astartes bolt weaponry", given that the Marine guns in the DH books were not that much different. I'm using the stats of IH's Sacristan-pattern for the Godwyn-De'az to set it apart from a standard boltgun. I too think that 2d10+5 would be way overpowered, if you thought I would consider this.

ak-73 said:

The "applicant" status is a nice idea, I will consider that. Still, no bolt weapons. I'll stick to the fluff on this one, especially given that I don't really like how the RPG has caused some sort of inflation in this area.

ak-73 said:

Superior in what way? Granted, if you take the equipment away, they still have their zeal - but I do think an experienced Guardsman (which may very well include Rank 1 characters with the appropriate background packages) knows a bit more about survival in the field, whereas the Novice would have "wasted" a lot of time learning how to copy old scrolls or sing the Fede Imperialis. The Schola Progenium background is available to more careers than just Sisters, too.

Lynata said:

A Battle Sister of the same age as a guardsman is typically superior as she has more training. Sisters have been shooting guns since their youth due to that Schola training compared to most guardsmen who typically have only gone through themost basic of training. The Sister also trains constantly when not in the field whereas many guardsman focus on much neeeded R & R when not in the field. Strategic command is where the Guard forces will likely excel past the Sisters.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Where is that number from?

Kid Kyoto said:

2nd Edition SoB Codex. It contained a neat list including the exact deployment numbers of the six big Orders, complete with how many Seraphim they train and how heavily the overall number of Battle Sisters fluctuated throughout the centuries and millennia, constantly affected by combat losses as well as the influx of new novices from the scholae. Essentially it is some sort of balance that keeps them from excessive growth.

Originally there were about 4.000 Brides when Vandire was still around (~M36). This number swell to 10.000 when they became the Adepta Sororitas, which led to the Ecclesiarch following Thor to split the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum into two Orders each. 2.500 years later (~M39) two more Orders were founded (the Bloody Rose and the Sacred Rose), but "in recent years" the overall number has declined slightly again.

Thinking about it, it's the perfect in-universe explanation for why they aren't mentioned that often (even though that likely has more to do with writers either just forgetting or simply not liking them). Apart from that, equipment that is equal to what the Astartes use is probably quite expensive, even for the galaxy-spanning Ministorum (considering they also have other expenses such as skyscraper-cathedrals and kilometer high statues etc).

On a sidenote, the 5th Edition Rulebook only mentions three Orders instead of six, so perhaps the headcount is even lower now. Given how many losses the Order of Our Martyred Lady has suffered in the War of Armageddon (it is said they were barely able to field two Companies after the dust had settled) it is not entirely unlikely that the Ecclesiarchy has opted to combine the leftovers of two or more Orders to bring them up to full strength again rather than having more but smaller and less efficient units.

Lynata said:

Thanks, I'll have to break mine out one of these days and give it a look.

But that number is irrelevent. The big 6 are just 6 of an unknown number of orders. It's like seeing a list of the ultras, wolves and templars and saying there are only 3000 marines in the galaxy.........

IIRC Blood of Martyrs said something about no one really knowing how many orders there are since orders are founded, split, combine and disappear all the time. if someone says the big 6 are the oldest and largest of the 10,000 SoB orders that would be pretty different from them being the biggest of 100 orders.

I always imagined the numbers to be something like

PDF - 10s of billions of men (uncounted)

IG - billions of men (more or less counted)

Militia - Crusading civilians potentially billions depending on what state the Imperium is in (completely unknown)

Arbites - Millions? (probably the best counted of all the forces)

Sisters of Battle - millions (secretive)

Inquisition minions - millions? (very secretive)

Marines - 1 million (secretive, potentially much higher or lower)

Grey knights/Death watch/Custodes - Thousands

Assassins - Hundreds

Nope. Having re-read the text, the Codex says the Convent buildings (Prioris and Sanctorum) have to be able to house all warriors of the Orders Militant, and in M39 they were expanded only to house 15.000 warriors each. So this does seem to be the overall number. Which fits, given that the Codex further tells us that the six big Orders number between 3.000 and 4.000 Battle Sisters each - and even if we take the maximum number we only get to 24.000 Sisters Militant. I assume that the other 6.000 or so are scattered throughout the various Orders Minoris, which are said to have "only a hundred or so individuals each" and are likely locally limited - probably even having to rely on the Imperial Navy when they want to get off-world at all.

Sorry for providing flawed information at first, I've been typing out of my memory and assumed the 30k was indeed just for the 6 big Orders as well. Thanks for making me read it up again.

That said, note that we only ever see the Orders Maioris in action - even in this RPG. So regardless of how many Orders Maioris there are, they have a remarkably smaller presence than the "big six" (if there still are six, that is).

Keep in mind that there are only 10.000 Stormtroopers, too (excluding the Inquisition ones and the Cadian Kasrkin).

@Kid Kyoto

I would rethink your logic on Arbites. They are probably the most numerous of all the groups you listed. They have a presence on untold numbers of worlds, starships, and void stations all across the galaxy. I would place them, at least, in the tens of billions.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Yeah but my thought is they're more like the FBI than the police (or more like the IG than the PDF). They answer to the Imperium while most cops will only answer to the local leader or the planetary governor tops.

Local laws are handled by the PDF or local police (also 10s of billions) the Arbites only act to enforce Imperial Law. A city of million may have 10,000 cops but only 100 Arbites. A colony just one.

Of course from time to time the local cops my be called arbites or may be drafted into the arbites to deal with an emergency but generally the real Arbites would be small.

how does the rest of the list look?

Kid Kyoto said:

Lynata said:

It's open to anyone.