Charmander said:

Yeah it is. Although to the Hive Tyrant's Defence, it didn't really have that many options (except not to attack us at all). But after all should Hive Tyrants be that afraid of 4 Space Marines? HB is overpowered, and IMO so are the other bolters. If we had to engage it in melee for instance it would have ripped us apart and we would barely be able to wound it at all - most of our Chainsword attacks would simply fail to overcome it's massive TB and Armor.

The Tyrant came in a very open area, and attacked from the only blind angle it could, behind a tall building. We had just wittled down a Mag 120 horde so it might have though we had expended lots of ammo etc, so tactically it was a good time to attack. The only bad move it did was attempts to hurt us with it's ranged and warp-like abilities rather than just rush at us. The reason why the HB works so well is that combined with high damage the enemy is so big we get a high bonus to hit it.

As for the Hormogaunts - YES we suck in melee combat THAT is the problem! We did aim (at first) and feint (eventually), but the problem was that the WS of a Space Marine is not that high, and that Swift attack and two-weapon wielder is not available until the mid-to high ranks, which costs tons of experience to get to.

SInce we are limited to one attack per turn, at a fairly mediocre WS (about the same as a mid-rank armsman or assassin), while even the lowliest of the Tyranids have Swift attack, it's pretty clear that these combats take time. Yes, we can often one-shot them (I even got one with an unarmed attack just for fun), but they are hard to hit, has excellent dodge, and ok WS so feinting is still pretty hard. Since they cannot easily hurt us the combat is still lopsided, it's just weird that it would take us far less time to kill a Magnitude 10 horde than it took to kill a bunch of single creatures, even if we can still one-shot them without Horde rules.

And I said (or meant) rank 8 Assassin - pre Ascencsion. No unnatural stats, just a bunch of talents and decent mortal equipment.

Friend of the Dork said:

Against hordes always use Multiple Attacks if you can (wielding two weapons? you don't need TWW for that) or if you can't, use All-out Attack for that +20.

Once Hormagaunts are below mag 20, they cease to be a big threat. You need to shoot them down below 20 before they charge or else you are in grave danger.

Alex

Lynata said:

Another question Sister Lynata: where would you fit the Sisters in in 40K RP? They don't fit as standing characters into the DW setting, except in an excetional role. They are too powerful for DH. I don't think they commonly accompany RTs. So the only thing that would be left was DH Ascension in the Ordo Hereticus. Is that what you would have wanted?

Alex

ak-73 said:

I'm not quite sure of that myself yet, but these are the options I've thought about:

• Ranks 1-2: Novice
• Ranks 3-5: Battle Sister
• Ranks 6-8: Veteran Sister (Celestian, Seraphim)
• Ranks 9-12: Legatine
• Ranks 13-16: Palatine

or

• Ranks 1-4: Novice
• Ranks 5-8: Battle Sister
• Ranks 9-12: Veteran Sister (Celestian, Seraphim)
• Ranks 13-16: Palatine

or

• Ranks 1-8: Novice
• Ranks 9-12: Battle Sister
• Ranks 13-16: Veteran Sister (Celestian, Seraphim)

The middle option seems like the closest thing to the existing fluff, but unfortunately this would still mean barring pre-Ascension characters the option to branch into the specialty careers which is always a downer, hence me currently leaning towards the first. At the same time I'm not sure if pushing the Battle Sister to Rank 3 is really the best solution - better than the current situation, sure, but good enough?

It's a bit difficult to balance a fully-fledged Sister's standard equipment against a jarringly long novitiate, at least currently (keeping in mind that future supplements may "buff" other classes as well). Similarly it is a challenge to make them fit in with the "look and feel" of other careers and their respective ranks, or provide exciting options for character progression (such as the specializations) on the appropriate level.

As I previously said, I feel they were simply added "too soon" and now suffer from it by being overpowered on early levels yet still not able to hold up to their reputation - especially later on. I don't want to retroactively take them out of DH entirely now, but at the same time I don't think I can stretch the Novice ranks over half a dozen (or more) Ranks, so I have to find some sort of compromise. Maybe the upcoming books will make this easier, depending on how they change the perception of the various careers.

ak-73 said:

The Sisters Dialogous and Hospitaller do, actually. But I guess you meant the Battle Sisters, in which case they'd be an exception indeed, both due to rarity as well as mission profile. The RT in question would have to work with the Missionarus Galaxia or be part of a Crusade as a prerequisite I think, not to mention call in some favors from contacts in the Ecclesiarchy. That said, it's still an option people may keep in mind.

ak-73 said:

Ok, first of all you don't seem to be responding to anything I write so I wonder why you quoted me.

Secondly, you are wrong, you do need TWW to attack with two weapons simultaneously, same in DW as in DH. While I don't like that it fits the general style of talents in DH where you need it to attempt special actions even though realisticly everyone should be able to TRY, albeit unlikelely to succeed.

All out attack is indeed good against Hordes, unless the Horde has non-horde allies in combat.

Hormogaunts are not much as a threat. As I said we defeated a 120 Magnitude horde of them without them even managing to close on us. They could potentially be dangerous if they could force us into melee sooner, but the amount of damage a Devastator Marine and normal SM bolters with Metal Storm rounds, or flamers and frags, is quite frankly.. devastating.

The point remains that against multiple non-horde enemies in melee the DW SMs are fairly weak because of their lack of multiple attacks. Fluff wise I don't see why they don't all have Swift Attack as standard, although I understand the need to make Space Marines in DW lack alot of talents and skills just because you need to be able to improve them like you do with DH characters.

Friend of the Dork said:

I was responding to the way you have been fighting hormagaunts.

Friend of the Dork said:

Reread the DH errata. DW works just the same in that regard as has been confirmed... last October, I believe.

Ah, what the hell, I'll save you the work of looking it up:

"If you do not have the Two Weapon Wielder talent and you wield
two weapons at the same time, you can use a Full Action to make a
single attack with each weapon. However, you suffer a –20 to the
attack roll with the weapon in your dominant hand and –40 with
the weapon in your off hand."

Friend of the Dork said:

Plus Marines have Ambidextrous so they can attack -20/-20 which will probably get offset by the horde size.

Friend of the Dork said:

Right. Also against multiple non-horde enemies in melee you need Assault Marines or Librarians or Techmarines. If you have 1 of each in say a 5 man kill-team they can do accomplish a lot in 2 or 3 turns, especially at Ranks 2+ or 3+.

It all makes Assault Marines a valuable specialty to have in a KT.

Alex

How about this?

• Ranks 4-6: Novice
• Ranks 7-9: Battle Sister
• Ranks 10-11: Veteran Sister (Celestian, Seraphim)
• Ranks 12-13: Legatine
• Ranks 14-16: Palatine

I'm perfectly willing to accept that my knowledge on the Sisters is limited but if you aim at the Battle Sisters to kick rear ends, you shouldn't go for less. Yes, it would mean that Novice sisters would be more powerful than Rank 1 Acolytes which might be a bit of a bummer because you can't easily combine a Novice sisters PC with a Novice Acolyte cell. But it might make sense.

And if you then narrow (or even) the gap between Astartes weaponry and mortal Bolt weapons from DH as indicated before, you should be good to go. What equipment do Novice sisters get according to the fluff (not 40K RP)?

Alex

AluminiumWolf said:

An look at this:

Well excuse GW for trying to at least pay lip service to science. You might be better off playing: http://www.heroplay.com/features/rules/marvel.php

And speaking of which, wouldn't the marvel equivelent of space marines be Captain America seeing as he's a SUPER SOLDIER? The films coming out this summer btw don't expect he'll be able to rip cars in half like bad checks these days.

Unusualsuspect said:

But I will come out as a person who doesn't like the large difference between Space Marine bolters and others', and also not being keen on over the top presentations of Space Marines.

Face Eater said:

Or Iron-Man?

Alex

ak-73 said:

The problem is less the Battle Sister herself, but more her equipment. Sororitas Militant characters are not necessarily better warriors than Guardsmen per se - their faith drives them on where others would give up, but at the same time this kind of zeal can become as much an unnecessary risk as it can be a boon. Additionally, they do not focus on combat training like Stormtroopers do but also do a lot of religious stuff. Their tactical doctrine basically stops at squad level which makes their warfare look kind of improvised compared to forces such as the Guard or the Astartes who place a somewhat greater emphasis on the different parts of their forces working together.

What gives them the edge they have is, in addition to their conviction, Astartes-grade armour and weaponry. A Novice doesn't have it, but a fully-fledged Battle Sister without her Order's signature wargear is a strange sight that could only be explained by circumstances, and even then it would feel wrong. Hence my solution would be to push this equipment a few Ranks up than just handing them to it from the start. Likely this would still make such a character more powerful, but it's still better than the current situation, and this kind of advantage can easily be offset by the harsh restrictions placed upon such careers in terms of roleplaying or equipment access, not to mention the cost of their skills/talents/characteristics (see the "overpriced" thread).

The issue with the Novice on Ranks 4-6 is not only that such a character would be unable to join an Acolyte cell from the start, but also that she would (should) be much less useful than other characters, lacking in combat capabilities (due to rather low equipment standards) as well as knowledge (due to missing experience and skills). And whilst Ranks in the range of 7-9 would indeed seem more balanced for a fully-fledged Battle Sister both in abilities as well as gear (is this when most Acolyte cells start getting their hands on power armour and boltguns?) I don't think I can stretch out the Novice career for 6 Ranks. Plus keep in mind that other kinds of Sisters (such as Hospitallers and Dialogous) would also branch out from the Novice Ranks, and they should be able to join the game earlier in any case.

ak-73 said:

Nothing - them leaving the Convent at all was an idea of this RPG. I quite like it, though. Whilst I do not think that combat assignments are amongst their regular tasks (the novitiate is pretty much all about training and serving the real Sisters) some sort of "trial by fire" seems fitting, and detached duty within an Inquisitional cell sounds like a good option for a Novice to prove herself.

For what I'm currently writing, I made lasguns and carapace breastplates standard equipment.

(and now I feel like having to watch Superman Returns - I blame the classy music)

I'd like to make a quick point about why the difference in the length of the bolt would have a significant impact on the damage to help explain why Space marine bolters do more damage. Most people here forget that a bolter projectile doesn't operate like a conventional bullet in terms of impact. Its much more like a mini-rpg in that when it hits a target in detonates itself after it penetrates. A longer bolt would mean two things the bolt would be longer meaning more shrapnel and more their can be a stronger charge in the bolt itself meaning the shrapnel would have more force when its is propelled from the bolt shell.

ak-73 said:

ak-73 said:

They wish they had Iron Man's armour. Raven Guard, White Scars, Blood Angels especially would kill for armour capable of unlimited supersonic flight with a huge ray guns. Although it's damage absorbtions seems to vary between being able to take tank shells and being punched off by the first robot that comes along.

RogalDorn said:

Lynata said:

Sorry to derail, but this is an awesome illustration. Did you do this? If not, who's the artist?

Although it's damage absorbtions seems to vary between being able to take tank shells and being punched off by the first robot that comes along.

It's like flak armor. It gets bonus AP vs Explosive Damage.

Lynata said:

Because the art in 40K is so consistent with scale....

Lynata said:

Because the Emperor said so?

or

Mortals are unworthy of using the tools of the Emporers Angels of Death and to do so would defile the machine spirit of the bolt round, bring shame upon the Astartes, and brand the user Heretic for defiling that which the Emporer gave to his many sons.

Once again a more powerful explosive charge could explain it. If we knew the shape of the angelus I could probably guess the justification. But form the descriptions it sounds like its a giant tube ment to hold the boltershells. If thats the case the reason that it could hold only three bolts is because the rest of the construction is ment to deal with the the force of firing the bolt shells would have on the weapon itself. Afterall to me personnally I imagine it built more like a flintlock rifle then a m-16 especially with only a three rounds. Second do they every really compare the size of the boltgun in anything other than caliber. Especially since the weapons of the Space marines are already identified as larger.

RogalDorn said:

The Angelus is 11 Kg and mortal boltgun is 7, a huge weight difference. Then you have 3 rounds vs 24.

My guess is that there is a LOT of recoil compensation going on with that extra 4 Kg.

Necrozius said:

That's an illustration from Jordan Mead. He used to draw the hilariously funny 40k "Lost in Space" comics on Librarium Online.

I commissioned a few artists to draw stuff using reference sketches for a project. I also have this Novice in a less comic-like greyscale variant, but Mead's colours are simply awesome, so I chose that one for display here.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Not usually - but in this case it surprisingly is. The miniatures as well. And of course it just fits to what the fluff (sans RPG) said all along.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Well, Vandire didn't care much about that. Unless BL/FFG also retconned that.

ItsUncertainWho said:

And the Scourge Boltgun is 10kg.

Why do you think it needs so much recoil compensation? The ammunition having its own rocket motor means that all the initial charge has to do is pushing the shot out of the barrel. Of course the gun still kicks like a mule (at least according to the pre-RPG fluff...), but surely not something that cannot be handled by exceptionally strong people? If a scrawny Scribe with SB2 can fire an Angelus with a single hand, why does a stronger character with power armour have to have enormous trouble firing the same ammunition with a gun that might have less recoil compensation?

yes but the scourge hold 8 times the ammunition and the angelus is still heavier. Ammunition is pretty **** heavy.

Lynata said:

Vandire may not have cared... but Vandire wasn't the only person involved. He didn't manufacture the weapons personally nor define their supply lines... he just gave the kinds of orders a psychotic megalomaniac would give, and expected things to happen. Within the context of the Imperium under his rule, I don't see him getting everything he wanted just because he demanded it - afterall, the Imperium was falling apart and the Mechanicus and the Astartes both (logically the only two factions with any guaranteed and consistent involvement in the production of Astartes munitions - afterall, even a "civilian" manufactory producing sophisticated equipment must be sanctioned to do so by the Mechanicus) distancing themselves from it, access to technologies that either faction wished to restrict would become increasingly unlikely.

Fundamentally, this argument will never go anywhere, because any material that contradicts you is what you're arguing against in the first place, and thus you refuse to consider it at all. Further, you grab rules arguments without fully considering the rules you're using to argue with or that all rules are fundamentally abstractions and thus unreliable sources (of course, "unreliable source" is the default state for any information about the 40k universe ever written... and that's intentional), and it frequently appears as if you assume that you've convincingly dismissed any and all counter-arguments without actually acknowledging what those arguments may be.

When dealing with a situation where two canon sources directly conflict over a matter, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer. There is the answer that a given individual prefers, and that is it. You disregard the RPG background as being an incorrect interpretation, when everything ever written for 40k, by anyone, in any capacity, is merely presenting an interpretation, because there are no cold, hard facts, regardless of how much you protest about your favoured sources being contradicted.

The use of the word canon, given its religious origins, places far, far too much emphasis on officialdom and serves more frequently to inspire arguments than it does to encourage consistency. This is, in my opinion, the case for any fictional setting - by defining something as canonical, you are essentially calling it the irrefutable word of god, which is far to much weight to place on any fictional work.

Lynata said:

Don't battle sisters have similar stats to stormtroopers? If so, then I would say that a full-blown battle sister should be no less than rank 7, especially considering the equipment she gets.

Lynata said:

Yeah but realistically Novice Sisters would be trained with boltguns early on. Not Godwyn-Daez but normal DH boltguns presumably. Only GD upon ascending to full battle sister status. That's how I'd handle it. And under those circumstances a Novice sister deemed having received enough training to be part of an Inquisitor's cell, should be at least Rank 4 for balance purposes. She'll be as good as an guardsman who has some experience (although probably lacking the experience just havign superior training) and having carapace(?) armour + a regular boltgun? Sounds on par for about Rank 4 PC, just about when they become proven acolytes.

And a Battle Sister with Sororita armour and GD bolter at rank 7... that's okay. We're talking about trusted acolytes here on the verge of becoming interrogators or even inquisitors. And I won't evenj mention psykers. Some PCs at that level will have power fields, some will wield heavy weapons (although the mortal HB is way too weak).

Lynata said:

No no no. Boltgun + special Sororita Novice armour will not be weaker. And they will not necessary lack knowledge/skills. You need to make certain curriculums to make up for the lost ranks. Consider which starting rank a DW marine in DH would be - but they start out with more skill and talents and stuff. Similar might then be necessary for the rank 4 Novitia - lots of superb training, not that much battle-field experience yet. Nerves of Steel will yet have to be earned on rank 5 or 6?

Lynata said:

Well, you have to decide what is the core thing and build the rest around it. What is the core thing? The appropriate ranking for the average battle sister I would presume? Then make a choice with regards to that. Build the rules for the novice sisters and upper ranks of the space nuns around that core decision. Me, I would rank the Battle Sisters roundabout that rank. You cannot stretch Novice Sisters across 6 ranks. Why not? Because the battle sisters are that good (rank 7?) and even a novice sister isn't as bad as rank 1 presumably. She doesn't have to climb through that many ranks to ascend to full-fledged battle sister status. From that follow my conclusion that the entry level must be above rank 1. Rank 4, perhaps rank 3 if you must. Branch out at rank x, allowing for ascension to full battle sister at around rank 7.

ak-73 said:

Nothing - them leaving the Convent at all was an idea of this RPG. I quite like it, though. Whilst I do not think that combat assignments are amongst their regular tasks (the novitiate is pretty much all about training and serving the real Sisters) some sort of "trial by fire" seems fitting, and detached duty within an Inquisitional cell sounds like a good option for a Novice to prove herself.

For what I'm currently writing, I made lasguns and carapace breastplates standard equipment.

Okay but consider what I said above about boltguns. It must become their main drill at some point, if that will be their standard armament later on. And then it would make sense to pass them some boltgun. For game balance purposes not the GD pattern though.

Alex

IMO, novice sisters would wear shield robes.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Not all counter-arguments. I have admitted that I cannot debunk the chance that Marine ammunition uses different (superior) materials. I still question the validity of the claim that neither the Inquisition nor the Ecclesiarchy are able to get their hands on the same stuff, though, given what else they have in their armouries and how wide-stretching their influence is.

As for the other counter-arguments - there I do think I have provided sufficient proof as to why they would not make sense, up to using the system's own mechanics. In fact, I've compiled a long list of them in another thread. But when we have people claiming that Marine Scouts do not use Astartes bolters because they need a minimum of 80 Strength (just so to arbitrarily exclude any possibility of a Non-Marine firing a weapon as powerful) ... yeah, that's when I just have to stop debating and give up, though claims such as those do not change my opinion. Which I hope most will understand.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yet as per GW's definition, Studio material is supposed to be cold, hard facts, whereas everything else is the interpretation that should adhere to the basics of the Studio material. Facts have to exist - for example, everybody considers it a fact that Space Marines are superior to normal humans, right?

You do have a certain point about preferences in conflicting sources, although there are conditions which I believe would rightfully push an argument towards one or the other direction:

• Origin: Who wrote it? Core GW staff or licensee? Where is it written? Studio material or subsidiary?
• Consistency: How extensive is the contradiction? How deeply does it affect the overall setting? How established was the original fact?
• Age: How old is it? Generally, new things override old things.

Currently, the only thing favoring BL's/FFG's take on the subject is that the RPG is fairly new.

ak-73 said:

The 40kRPG seems to do "status cut-offs" at every four ranks. DH is 1-8, RT is 5-12, Ascension/Astartes are 9-16. Hence me generally leading towards Rank 5, but this would mean people miss out on Seraphim and Celestians in DH.

If I push the Battle Sister up to Rank 7 then I can make her an Ascension career right away, as it doesn't make much sense to write her for only two Ranks in DH. But is Rank 7 really the earliest that other people get power armour and bolters, or comparable equipment/abilities? I'd very much like to hear various group's experiences concerning this.

ak-73 said:

As per the (old?) fluff, they do - though it is not mentioned how exactly this training looks like. Given the recoil, I would suspect it consists mainly of basic knowledge about usage and maintenance as well as probably a few rounds fired with the weapon being braced on some sort of support. Of course they do not get to actually take such weapons out of the schola/convent. A mere Novice with a bolt weapon would be ... highly inappropriate, in my opinion. Boltguns are a fully-fledged Sister Militant's signature wargear, just as the power armour is.

ak-73 said:

Not exclusively. I do not want to rewrite half the game, and I do want to keep the career as a whole viable as a starter choice (why do you think a Novice Sister would be superior to, say, a Guardsman?), and of course I want the career to be an exciting option for players (which means including some branching as well as allowing people to play the most interesting parts of the career for as long as can be justified, taking fluff and balance into account)

ak-73 said:

Well, for what it's worth the Godwyn-De'az as per the RAW is nothing more than a good quality standard boltgun. So much for sticking to the fluff.

As for standard armament - well, that depends on their exact assignment, but beyond that the fluff also notes that Sisters are trained to use every kind of weapon available as to make them less dependent on supply lines. The lasgun seems thrice-fitting because it is (a) also a signature 40k weapon, (b) commonly available and easy to recharge and © rather forgiving on its user, considering we're talking about a bunch of young girls, regardless of the physical aptitude that got them selected.

And lastly, not all Novices become Battle Sisters. In fact, only a very small fraction do, whilst most will join the Non-Militant Orders.

Lynata said:

Were also in a situation were the ability to fire the angelus one handed doesn't make sense in real life but can be done according to the rules. Essentially your having someone who has below average strength fire a weapon that weighs 22 pounds in one hand. Granted they get a really bad penalty but they still shouldn't be able to lift 22 pounds in one hand if their below average strength. Besides the initial charge has to do more than push it out of the barrel it has to do it with significant enough force that the bolt shell doesn't lose velocity until the rocket propellant not only ignites but reaches its terminal velocity. Heavier round more charge is needed more charge the deeper it can impact in a target before detonating.

Ultimately were left in a situation I like to call were the fluff doesn't match your expectations. It happened to me when the autoguns in dh were better than lasguns. So I had to come up with a reason based on what I know about physics and firearms to justify the changes.