Unusualsuspect said:

Unusualsuspect said:

Lynata said:

Thanks for the link... but burn for HERESY!

Edit: In the link, it states that the jet aspect of the weapon simply accelerates the projectile until the fuel runs out. If the starting velocity is higher, the end velocity is similarly higher (though there probably isn't quite a 1:1 ratio, given the increase in friction would correspondingly increase how much fuel is needed to continue to accelerate the projectile).

Therefore, unless I'm missing something, if an Astartes bolter did shoot the projectile at greater initial speeds and had greater amounts of fuel in the bolt ammo itself, it would be moving initially faster and would accelerate to a greater maximum speed. If it had the same fuel but more potent explosive (the TnT vs C4 example), it would strike with the same force and would have a much more messy end.

Also, I'm fairly sure it isn't just penetration that would increase with increased speed and acceleration... A faster projectile, especially an accelerating one, will impart more force/energy/momentum onto the same small area, will it not? Better penetration, sure, but also that % more force being theoretically spread out across the body.

I'm not physics major, so take my statements with a bathtub of salt.

Unusualsuspect said:

You do have a point! My physics were flawed, it seems. I'm not entirely sure where it would get into negligible amounts, though.

That said, you'd also still need to change the quality of the materials used - for when you simply use more first-stage propellant to make use of the barrel's increased durability, you would logically have less room for the second-stage rocket propellant and/or the actual explosive.

Unusualsuspect said:

Hm, I'm not sure if bolt ammunition works that way - it's supposed to detonate immediately after penetration, which could well negate the lesser shock a normal non-explosive bullet would otherwise cause. Not certain on that myself, however, and likely very situational anyways (huge difference based on when exactly the primer would be triggered, based on what kind of armour the target is wearing, if any).

In any case you'd have to go into quality levels and/or outright change the entire material used as propellant/explosive. Certainly possible with FFG's reimagination of the setting.

The stronger Space Marines get, the more sense it makes that they carry bigger guns...

I don't think anyone would argue that it isn't in the spirit of the fluff, nor outside the realm of possiblity that the superhumanly strong Marines carry larger weapons.

>>>

Christ! Arguing over five points of damage! I see Marines with Avatar level effects kicking ass blockbuster style, hulk style:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wrNMPRriwc

I mean technically by Deathwatch rules they can pick up a fairly large SUV and throw it at someone (which again ask the question as to why they are using such small guns, given they could easily pick up a thudd gun and go to town) but that is largely because the lifting table is the most awesome thing about Deathwatch.

New Interesting Ideas people. Not stuck in the past!!!1111!! Seriously, are we expecting people to never have a better idea?

"That said, you'd also still need to change the quality of the materials used - for when you simply use more first-stage propellant to make use of the barrel's increased durability, you would logically have less room for the second-stage rocket propellant and/or the actual explosive."

Unless, as I stated before, the fluff was changed concerning the length of the bolt ammo Astartes use, and thus the available space for propellant and explosives. Like I've said before, this would require changes (though, I'd argue, reasonable changes) to existing fluff.

AluminiumWolf said:

5 damage is in my experience often what we could get through some Tyranid's TB and armor in DW. Of course it matters! If it didn't they wouldn't have changed the bolter damage in DW from (astartes) DH.

This thread is starting to be ridiculous. First off, have you played DW Lynata? As far as I can tell and by your own admission, you haven't (if that changed in the meantime, then I apologize). You constantly argue about bolter damage discrepancy and unnatural stats for marines. Have you seen the kind of threats marines deal with? I suggest, if you have a chance, to look up the Broodlord from Price of Hubris adventure in Emperor Protects. I don't know if I am allowed to post its stats here, but will if it's allowed. Do you think most players will just shoot their way through broodlords nest where there are couple of more genestealers around? No. They will most likely be engaged in melee where true heroes are made of anyway. Without UT as it is now they would be turned to shreds in matter of 2-3 rounds. Good luck to sisters if they are fighting against it in a team of 5. Or against Tau Stealth suits. What, you think that RoF 10 on burst cannon won't hurt a marine? You need to put things in perspective. Look at the threats they need to deal with.

And as game being incompatible with DH. That's far from the truth. First off, there has to be a reason why marines are working with mortals (I hate that term btw). Secondly, marines are probably there because those Ascension (presumably) characters can't deal with the problem. Thirdly, if they all deal the same damage and are more or less equal; why 3 distinctive games, then ? When you say compatible, what do you really mean or want from it? That they deal the same damage? Or that individual characters have equal chance in being able to kill the marine as marine has of killing them? That in itself is propostrous, if true. From fluff to logical practicality. Marines with all those implants are immune to things as bleeding, they are resistant to poisons, have heightened senses, are somewhat resistant to high temperatures, can spit acid and devour your brain to get some information/skills out of you. Of which, first 5 of those: Secondary Heart, Ossmodula, Biscopea, Haemastamen and Larraman Organ should clarify the unnatural toughness part.

I won't deny I like space marines a lot. That probably is redundant for me to say, since you can see as much from this post. But keep in mind these are distinctive games that concern themselves with different aspect of the same universe. Everyone is suitable for some job the others aren't. For example: Acolytes investigate and uncover cults, rogue traders explore and claim lost/new worlds and space marines destroy those most dangerous specimens galaxy is throwing at Emperors faithful. And if you want sisters in the mix, they can be an elite add-on to acolytes or some sort of advisor to missionary in RT. Lastly, they can have missions of their own in guarding holy sites OR if we need to mix them with DW, they can be of help, especially with those faith powers from BoM.

That being said, I just want to add that in no way am I just a fanboy of marines. My dearest faction in all of this is actually Imperial Guard. Those fine men and women without whom the Imperium would surely falter and become a prey for xenos, heretics and daemons. Also, I am not a native english speaker, so apologies if it seems that my sentences are not that meaningful or particularly good put together. It's strange mixing your own language in your head with english

FTE

=][=

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

I've played Deathwatch, and although Tyranids are very dangerous I don't see why bolters need to be overpowered. Once in melee combat the SM generally suck against most enemies, but at range they shred them apart (especially the Heavy Bolter).

We even fought a Hive Tyrant in 2-3 rounds, it never came close enough to hurt any of us - it got killed by HB fire+ Bolter w/hellfire ammo. Now I'm not sure of the SM fluff but are these 4 (relatively) generally inexperienced Space Marines really supposed to take down a Hive Tyrant that easily? This was just after taking down a 120 Magnitute Horde mind you.

For comparison another fight we had that night was against 6-8 Hormogaunts, the most puny Tyranid there is, who had wisely decided not to bunch up into an easily destroyable horde. Since they all came upon us in generally close quarters, and since their initative is much better than a Space Marine's, they got into melee with us. After 5-6 rounds of very ineffective chainsword fighting (alot of misses, since our WS are not that much better than a starting DH character), the GM allowed us to autowin the combat after taking some wounds each and to speed it up. The Hormogaunts could only scratch us on a natural 10 on damage, and only if hitting the less armored parts of our bodies. On the other hand they had better dodge than we had WS, and they had 2 attacks in melee, something SM can't get until they have many thousands of xps.

So in my experience, Bolters are overpowered, UT+armor means lesser enemies needs to form Horde's to hurt SMs, and the SM for all his big toys and implants are really lacking in Skills and Talents. In pretty sure that a Rank 9 Assassin could defeat a single Deathwatch Space marine in close combat, despite the latters Unnatural Str and T. The Assassin could dodge the SMs attack easily (except if the latter used Fate Points), and rain down 3-4 attacks meaning despite the generally lower damage, Power weapons+talents could wear him down.

DW enemies are balanced against DW Space Marines. I doubt anyone would argue otherwise. So if you nerf UT and US then you also need to nerf the Tyranids, Tau, etc.

AluminiumWolf said:

Yeah, I kind of suspected you were going down that route. I hate to break it to you but The Hulk might not be the most science theory based role model, looking like the hulk doesn't equal being as strong as the hulk there's about 50 ton's in the middle that is explained away with 'gamma ray bull '. There's never been any mention of space marines throwing around armoured vehicles, the lifting rules in DW are, at best to be taken with a pinch of salt and hardly massively tested against the background.

Can't help thinking you might have been better off reading DC and Marvel if you were looking for indestructable, infinately strong warriors rather military sci-fi which is, in essence, about wars where pretty much everyone dies.

Lynata said:

So my personal experiences are wrong? Because that's what you're saying here - that what I know to be true from experience doesn't match the quoted description of someone who is talking about a completely different company.

George Mann is talking about Black Library, and I feel it would be a mistake to assume that what is true for novelists writing for Black Library is inherently true anywhere else.

I've been writing for FFG for over a year now, so I know what I'm talking about in this regard.

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

So if you've followed the flow of the argument (which is difficult given the 20 or so pages ) the core of her argument is not that Marines are too powerful precisley but the scale difference between DH and DW, how FFG essentially created tiers of the same weapon, and that given prior fluff text the Sisters were outfitted with weapons that could deal the same damage.

Not to put words in her mouth, but I think she'd have prefered it if SoB were introduced later in the levels rather than starting at level 1, and if boltguns were all more powerful and lower level characters were simply prohibited by whatever means (cash, renown, laws, strength, etc.) from using them. Others of us, like you and me, don't see this as a problem and like letting our DH folks carry around boltguns. The only real option left is to generate house rules at this point, and none of us will suddently reach an 'ah hah' moment at this point.

The rest of the arguments appear to be fragments as the tides of the forum pull it apart, and cause it to range from the scaling system for unnatural characteristics, the 'realism' of being immune to certain small arms at higher levels, etc, and the retcon and fluff writing proceedure for GW/BL/BI/FFG.

Friend of the Dork said:

Off Topic:

HB is overpowered, plain and simple, and suffers from the same autofire damage multiplier that's core to the system. I personally follow AK's Houserule and reduce the RoF to 7 and reduce the damage addition by 2 (so a total of +8 rather than 10) and it's been working so far.

The Hive Tyrant should've been a little more clever in engaging you though, and not just charged down the hallway at you, and not pulled the ninja movie manuver where only one enemy engages you at a time, and out in the open giving your ranged guys a significant advantage.

As for the hormogaunts, sorry your hand to hand sucks, I'd suggest doing things next time like aiming or feinting. The GM should've scaled the encounter properly as well and not just had them try to dodge every time. Honestly, a single hit should've pulped a hormagaunt tho.

And yes, a rank 9 assassin would probably be able to kill a single DW Space Marine if played like a player character. Though at that point you're talking both characters as being in the same tier of the system (post ascenson) and both characters are looking at close to the same XP level, they should be fairly evenly matched (at least for two combat focued characters/classes).

Carry on, sorry for the disruption...

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

Have you seen the kind of threats Inquisitors and Sisters deal with? And no, I'm not just talking of this RPG or any stats - that's the entire point of my criticism: a perceived "nerf" for what other characters should be capable of as per their GW fluff. Although, when I do look at posts like Friend of the Dork's then it does seem as if even within the scope of this game there seems to be a slight balancing issue. Unless, of course, you consider it normal that Hive Tyrants can get wtfpwned that quickly. Guess the Tyranid threat has been overexaggerated all along.

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

Because there are differences beyond weapon damage? Not to mention all those extra mechanics and a different focus on gameplay. Lastly, it's also a matter of style and personal preferences: you could just as well ask why there are more than two armies in the TT if they all have a chance to beat each other. And just because DH and RT bolters deal the same damage I doubt the latter does not qualify as its own game. DW is the one and only example that stands apart here.

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

How many times do I need to repeatedly point out that I'm talking about the equipment - which, by fluff and logical practicalty, should not be that far apart - and not any biological enhancements that should indeed remain limited to the Astartes and which, in fact, would still set them apart? That said, I still maintain UT is broken in terms of balancing, simply because it's a flat multiplicator and those are always problematic due to the huge gaps they cause.

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

Also, I am not a native english speaker, so apologies if it seems that my sentences are not that meaningful or particularly good put together. It's strange mixing your own language in your head with english

I think you're doing fine, and I can relate. It's not my native tongue either.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Experience is, in the end, in the same way "tainted" by personal perceptions and preferences as all those different interpretations of the setting Mr. Mann was talking about. We are all susceptible to this because we all tend to look at and memorize things differently, and this includes me just as much as I think it could include you. Weren't you too among those who maintained that there were never non-Marine bolters equal to Marine bolters until that quote, for example?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Then again it was Black Industries - a subsidiary of Black Libraries - which introduced this discrepancy in the first place ...

I also feel it would be a mistake to assume that what is true for one publisher of Non-Studio material could never apply to others.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I know that you've been writing for FFG for a long time - you state this in every third post and have it in your signature (not that there is no reason why you shouldn't be proud of such an achievement, it could very well be the start of a career as a professional writer). This, however, still doesn't mean your arguments carry the same weight as official statements concerning the status of the entire franchise.

And yeah, Charmander - that was a pretty accurate synopsis. That said, I wouldn't take boltguns out of DH entirely, just ... reserve them for later levels, and generally make them somewhat harder to get.

I think DH suffers a bit from letting players not start as "proper" Acolytes with their own player Inquisitor right away (sort of like Rogue Trader), but rather pressing them into the role of what sounds like one of many, many mook cells operating independently and made up of a pretty wild mixture of characters hailing from vastly different "echelons of power" that are hard to compare but yet have to (somehow) be balanced against each other. It feels as if the franchise could have deserved yet another separate game which focuses on the "lower power levels", sort of like ... a Necromunda RPG (which would have been awesome!) instead of trying to lump several different "power levels" into a single one. This is mere nitpicking, though - I'm still having loads of fun with all the different incarnations of the 40kRPG.

Charmander said:

Sadly I still don't believe this goes for all careers, what with the Assassin being the only one who gets comparable weapons. And I still think you're placing way too much emphasis on how Faith Talents would supposedly balance this. Aside from (imho) not being supposed to turn a faithful character into a "pseudo-mage" and now being available to a wider range of characters, most are more like nifty advantages and - unlike in the Tabletop - there is none that increase a weapon's effectiveness. Divine Guidance, for example, which would cause ranged weapons to completely negate any(!) armour in the TT and the computer games, merely negates a single ranged BS penalty here in this RPG. Quite a change. Added to that comes the fact that most Faith Talents are group buffs that would apply to anyone, and even though this would make a faithful character seem more useful it still would not cause him or her to stand out. In the end, it's like being relegated to becoming a "buff machine" for those members of the group who have the weapons to actually hurt the opponent. Again, YMMV, but this is not how I have such characters in mind after reading all the novels and fluff.

Lynata said:

No, I wasn't. What I have said is that I've personally favoured the idea of a distinction between Astartes and non-Astartes weaponry since before the distinction appeared in any publication, which isn't the same thing at all.

Lynata said:

Nor would I expect them to. But I don't expect them to be dismissed out of hand in the face of a second-hand quote from someone else regarding a different company producing a different sort of material - the expectations and requirements inherent in producing novels are different to those that influence the production of RPGs, which in turn are different to those that influence the production of board and card games. In this, as with almost everything else, context is king.

I honestly can't believe this thread is still going on. It's like a Space Marine's Heavy Bolter: unlimited and unchecked Righteous Fury. I just gotta throw another troll log on the fire.

Two different games. Scaling issues. Epic combat versus investigative.

Also, just for the record, going by RAW a Vindicare, Psychic Inquisitor or Primaris would have no problem wtfbbqpwning a DW marine in a single combat round. Probably in part due to... ::gasp:: Unnatural Statistics! They could probably take out the Kill Team, actually. The real issue isn't compatibility, or who your favorite TT army is, it's just that the scaling for FFG's system is very spikey, partially due to geometric multipliers.

Charmander said:

Is it overpowered though? The reason I ask is that I figured that the heavy bolter was meant to be the kind of weapon that was multi purpose. It could be for mowing down enemie infantry, or it could be for taking apart light armoured vehicles. The equivalent to a heavy bolter by todays standards would be something like a 20 mm cannon I would imagine; which can reduce a human to paste. The Dark Heresy heavy bolter seems very underpowered compared with a Deathwatch one though. Just my two cents.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

N0-1_H3r3 said:

vandimar77 said:

As a sidenote, your comparison seems pretty spot-on; a heavy bolter's caliber 1.00 would be ~25mm and a boltgun's caliber 0.75 would be ~19mm.

Lynata said:

No, it wasn't... but I don't know how they operated - I was a playtester for WFRP2 and for everything BI produced for Dark Heresy (up to and including Disciples of the Dark Gods, which then went to FFG after the hand-over for editing, layout and publication). I can't comment on the big behind-the-scenes stuff there, as I wasn't involved to that sort of level.

What I do know is the situation I am currently in with regards to writing for FFG, which is what I was talking about. I don't know what the situation was with Black Industries (though I know people who do), and thus cannot and will not comment on that. Even with regards to FFG, I'm deliberately holding back in many cases, as there's a fair amount of stuff that I know that I can't share.

Lynata said:

And here's where the issues arise. GW don't do that. Lucasfilm and its various associated companies do that with the Star Wars canon (differing "levels", all overseen by a single man whose job it is to keep it all straight and determine canonicity).

GW don't assign differing levels of "official" to things like George Lucas' people do, and people assuming that they do and then getting irate because things don't fit the way they want them to... well, that's just not healthy.

Aaron Demski-Bowden explains it better than I do...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Nice read, but that article basically can be summed up by that convention quote. It is also of note that there can be interpretations because something just isn't described in detail (leading to different books contradicting each other), and "interpretations" that go directly against what was established by the Studio (leading to books contradicting the source material itself, which should better be avoided).

And just because GW doesn't handle its IP as detailed and transparent as LucasLicensing doesn't mean they don't assign different levels of "official" - as apparently, according to Mann (and the article you linked yourself), they do.

Is it healthy to get irate? No, of course not. But given that this RPG plays a far greater role than any single novel where the author wrote something weird (such as in "Redemption Corps" - or Goto's Multilasers if you want an Astartes example) it should be understandable that some people don't really like a few aspects of this interpretation. As I said, I'd prefer things to stick close to the GW basis when it comes to things that actually are already described and thus don't need "reimagination".

See it as an expression of my love for not only the franchise but this RPG as well. Maybe this paints my posts in a slightly more positive light.

vandimar77 said:

IMO, yes, it is. The issue I find isn't that it's multi-purpose or can damage hordes, it is how all of the little system things interact to form argueably the best weapon in DW- autofire rules, RF rules, tearing rules, penetration rules, etc. By RAW, it is more effective at taking out light vehicles than plasma weapons or even the lascannon. It also blasts apart hordes, and can eliminate elite/master class enemies in one round, and carries a ton of ammunition. It's not that it's powerful, it's that it is superior to nearly all other weapons, which doesn't make that much sense to me given that it's supposed to be a heavy machine gun of the future.

And the DH one is underpowered, especially in comparison; the DH HB does, on average, the same as a standard boltgun, only increasing it's RF chance, max damage potential (and min damage potential, btw), and number of hits you can do.

At Last Forgot said:

So...in the end, nothing is 100% canon.

I like it!

And:

IG<Space Marine<Grey Knights=Custodes<"many things"<Doctor Who!

Charmander said:

Fair enough. I haven't played Deathwatch enough to try out the horde rules properly so it might well be overpowered in that regard. And you are right that other weapons should be much better at damaging vehicles; such as lascannons, plasma cannons and krak missiles. If it's better at that task than them then I'd concur that the damage numbers are a bit off.

vandimar77 said:

On paper it doesn't look that awful, it's just combining it with, well, autofire it multiplies your average of 20 damage out between 1 and 10 times versus say the lascannon that gets a single shot doing something like 30 damage. Pen is different, and balances it out some, but then you toss in specialty ammo and talents and that +1 here and +1 there adds up in a big hurry. Mercifully with a few minor tweaks it seems to have come back in line, at least in my experiences.

See, this is The Hulk in 1988, about when Rogue Trader came out:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWmHEF_PT8E

And this is The Hulk in 2008:-

(This is more like the level of action I expect from Space Marines - Hulk picks up a cop car and uses it as an improvised weapon, which I think is probably technically possible under the Deathwatch rules.)

People have made great strides in, well, Being Awesome in recent years. And I want to see some of that Awesome reflected in Space Marines. There is no point in pretending that no one has seen this stuff and trying to carry on like it is still 1987.

And | think everyone agrees that a Marine could easily beat up waves of Na'vi with their bare fists:-