Charmander said:

Charmander said:

Charmander said:

Charmander said:

I still think it would have been better to stick to the fluff and introduce minimum strength requirements for equal boltguns instead of splitting them into one Astartes and one Civilian category. And yes, I'll keep bringing this term up - it's one of the best examples of what went wrong here.

Charmander said:

Charmander said:

Charmander said:

Charmander said:

Fenrisnorth said:

Here's another image, though. Look at the ammo box next to the bolter, which in this case is an Astartes Mk IVc.

Bolter muzzles have always been larger than they'd need to be, anyways. Or do you think this beast's barrel has a mere diameter of ~2.5 cm?

Don't start to argue the scale of things on the model. EVER. If we go that route, a space marine's skull is the size of his torso. And they reference two different types of heavy bolter in the page you linked, the title of the picture is Godwyn Pattern, and the summary says Astartes Pattern. Likely the person who edited the page was a person who hadn't checked his facts correctly. (BTW, Wiki sites are notorious for stuff like that)

I say it is a Guardsman's heavy bolter for two reasons. First, the grip is very tiny compared to the size of the weapon. it looks to be sized for a human. Second, it has a pintle mount clip under the skull motif. This is something you don't see on SM vehicles.

Pattern refers to the Forge the Boltgun comes from, not who uses it. There have been Mars pattern, Fenris pattern, Ultra Pattern, Astartes Pattern and I'm sure many, many more.

>>>It's funny because I really don't think that under Deathwatch rules Space Marines are as omnipotent as some fans would like to see them<<<

Yeah, its just, I mean, you wait twenty years for a Space Marine roleplaying game and this is the best you have got?

If ever there was a time to push the boat out and show people a thing or two this was it. Space Marines! They have movies! They have video games! They have novels and comics and a moderatly sucessful miniatures line!

It pains me that Space Marines are not going to go down in gamer folklore as legendary badasses.

>>>

And this thread goes to show once again that all anyone cares about is how awesome Space Marines are.

Lynata said:

Ascension and DH mix about as well as DH and DW. While some careers in Ascension are crap, many of them can be just as powerful as an astartes, perhaps not on the combat front, but when all things are considered...

Lynata said:

Fair enough

Lynata said:

Again, you have to bump up in power level to reach DW, it doesn't mix with the lower level DH. Non-Marines can be as uber as they are in their fluff, there is just a lot less of their fluff to indicate their uberness. DH characters get bossed around and scrounge for gear, they don't go hang out with temple assassins and requisition guard units.

Lynata said:

To do this may have fit more canocally, but I think DH players would've felt left out when only one or two players had a strength high enough to use the weapons. Easy enough HR though, make it a strength bonus 6 or 8 or something similar, which will mean unless you are super strong, have US, or PA, you can't use the gun. Then up the damage across the board.

Lynata said:

Lynata said:

Lynata said:

And FWIW, I think we have covered everything, we're going in circles.

>>>>Wait, Inquisitors get terminator armor?<<<<

Kids today.

http://zachary.org/games/gw/spterm4.jpg

Fenrisnorth said:

You're right. Here's another piece of fluff, I've scanned it just now especially for you.

Fenrisnorth said:

Actually, no. Astartes-type, Godwyn-pattern. You know, like the M16 is the military designation for the AR-15 rifle? Note how the Type designation includes numbers and letters, obviously referring to some kind of order of succession. You can also see it on this official image which has both the Type and the Pattern next to each other.

Fenrisnorth said:

I'm pretty sure I've seen Space Marine vehicles that make use of a twin-linked heavy bolter somewhere. I'd need to look that up though, unless you can help me out. In any case, if you think that one image is too vague, how about the other one I linked? The one with the ammo box? That one clearly is a Marine heavy bolter, is it not?

Charmander said:

Well, that doesn't really seem fitting for a Battle Sister - but this goes back to my opinion that they were introduced too early.

Charmander said:

Viable wargear selection for Ordo Malleus Inquisitors. I don't think they make the actual miniatures anymore, though. Similar situation as with the Adepta Sororitas Banner Bearer.

Charmander said:

I guess so. I admit it's getting a bit jarring, but at least we've said our piece.

Gah! Now I almost forgot to deliver that info on canon I promised.

Alright, this is from the old forums. Sadly I did not write down who posted it in the first place, but it sounded pretty legit so I saved it:

From one of the Games Workshop events:

"2. In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library’s main objective was to “tell good stories”. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40k worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that is HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work."

"I had to post a clarification on the BL forum in this respect. I was speaking to George in my capacity as a writer making pitches to BL (I was a winner in the PlanetKill competition), not as a hobbyist interested in the canonicity of the BL product. The official line stands: its ALL canon. It's just that the writers are only expected to stay faithful to the Studio material and are free to contradict - within reason - other BL authors."

You can get a TL HB on a Razorback, but it looks quite different from that. it is turret mounted, and has no grips, it's fired from in the cabin. That grip type is indicative of IG Heavy weapons teams, now that I look more closely.

And, yeah, I grant that those shells in the ammo box are far from fist sized, in fact, they just look like longer Bolter shells, "finger" sized if you would.

I've looked through everything I can get my hands on without resorting to Black Library tomfoolery. I'll grant you that Brother and sisters should have the same damage on Bolters. But, I'm not swayed by the arguments about Armor and TB, even the Marine in Purge the Unclean has better armor than the sisters, He's sitting at avg 11 AV. Even if the extra space is taken up by systems to increase the marine's longevity (The Nutrient Recycling System, or NuRSy, if you will) which is not something that requires the Black Carapace, then that can still absorb the force of a blow. Most of the systems of PA are Autosenses and stuff in the helmet, wrists, boots, and back. Not in the chest, where the marines have the brunt of the armor.

Fenrisnorth said:

Not the old one - man, it's been years since I've last seen one of those ... (and tbh, the "new" design does look a bit better, even though manned turrets are still cool ... if done right). Though you still made me unsure now. But isn't a skull more Astartes than Guard?

Fenrisnorth said:

Well, a finger is as long as a fist, so it's not inherently wrong - just a bit misleading.

Especially when you look at those barrels. But I suppose the barrels could be "explained away" by making the metal extremely thick to compensate for firing stress or some technobabble like that. Sadly, some artworks have them just about 5mm thick whereas others have the metal as thick or thicker than the actual projectile's radius. It's a bit of artist interpretation, as always - just look at these bolts for example...

Fenrisnorth said:

Heh, ironically the presence of these systems was how I resolved to see the discrepancies between the suits, basically doing what so many posters in this thread did before and twisting the meaning of a quote to make it fit the situation in DH - and seeing both armours as having an equal strength in their actual armour plating, but the Marine version having some additional "improvised protection" due to all the subsystems further softening a blow that would otherwise hit the wearer directly were they missing. So this is something where I feel I'd have to agree out of common sense.

As for TB - well, my criticism/scepticism towards flat multiplicators remains, though I also see a problem with the TB of very experienced DH/RT characters (TB5 + Power Armour = lasgun invul as well). At some point many weapons just become non-threatening, which feels a bit weird to me. Admittedly it makes for a more heroic image when you can just wade through a hail of gunfire knowing you can't get hurt, but still ...

In any case, thanks for the effort of looking through your books. The vast majority of people here goes solely by personal preference, it seems. I've got my preferences as well, but those are not entirely unfounded when looking at the source material. By the way: If you have both the WH Codex as well as BoM ... do compare the vestment descriptions on pages 19 and 85, respectively. Did you notice the subtle changes in wording? Quite sneaky.

All the Black Carapace interfaces with is the Strength enhancers, (which everyone gets anyways, it seems ) and the Autoinjectors.... not missing out on THAT much, though those are pretty awesome. I think the RPG says that the BC also lets the suits muscle fibers mimic the marine's movements much more efficiently, which is pretty cool.

And of course, I like to argue fair.

Lynata said:

So DW, and DH, and RT, are "official" retcons. It's just that if someone were to write a novel or other RPG, they wouldn't have to absorb all of the stuff that FFG has written into their view of things...."within reason."

From a contractual standpoint that's pretty interesting stuff- I imagine with that many books and docs on your universe, it would be difficult if not impossible to enforce 100% compliance on everything.

Thanks for digging that up

@Fenrisnorth: Yes, the BC in the RPG allows you to 'merge' with the suit more effectively and the in-game result is that you don't count as a hulking target when enemies shoot at you. The RPG doesn't do anything regarding strength for having the BC, that's 4 or 5 other organs dedicated to US and UT that seem to do a plenty good job.

Charmander said:

Not exactly. This isn't GW Studio material - these books have the same "value" as any other novel released by Black Library.

That's not to say that this isn't all the start of some big retcon either way, but so far all of this is just another "author's interpretation". We'll see in 2012, I assume.

Charmander said:

Yes, you'd need something like the Holocron Continuity Database to do that - needless to say that's a massive task, and so far I only know of Star Wars as being a major franchise where they truly try to make all things fit together.

Charmander said:

Even when they'd stand perfectly still...

Lynata said:

So if the Sob HB would do 1 or 20 damage points less than the Astartes HB - would that constitute being equal (more or less) to you? Or do you insist on total equality? Just asking.

Alex

Lynata said:

Sneaky indeed, lol. Either way, that is one sexy b*tch!

Wait, Sister's PA gives +5 BS? RAEG! NURDRAEG! WAAAAAAH!!

ak-73 said:

Given that a disparity in weaponry was never meant to exist (as per the pre-RPG fluff) I don't see why I should move away from my preferences just so that the Astartes can gain yet another area of superiority over anyone else as if they would not have enough or would seem "less awesome" otherwise.

Note that I would advise against just bumping SoB weapons in DH as that would seriously unbalance the game, which likely already is affected by the problematic inclusion of a career that gains power armour and a bolt weapon on Rank 1. What I would do would be either adjusting all the appropriate weapons across the board (slightly bumping DH's and slightly nerfing DW's to meet in the middle) or simply confirm that DH and DW take place on different narrative levels and only adjust a character's weapons when they move from one game into the other (similar to how some weapons' efficiency seems to change from novel to novel depending on the author/focus). The latter option would of course preserve that precious feeling of epicness for DW.

For the time being, what we did for my group's current campaign was to basically make the Godwyn-De'az-pattern a combination of IH's Sacristan and RT's Locke-pattern to conform to the respective descriptions in the WH Codex and the Inquisitor's Handbook: 1d10+6 damage and gaining the ability of Auto-Fire when the weapon is Braced, plus a strength requirement of SB4 to compensate for recoil. Superior to most other boltguns, but (hopefully) not any more OP. For the theoretical situation of this gun being used in DW I would argue for stats equal to the Astartes Godwyn-pattern, as the De'az seems to be a derivative of it (judging purely by name).

Fenrisnorth said:

Doesn't a Space Marine's helmet also contain a similar bonus? *blinks*

I wouldn't be surprised if they even get +10 or something because theirs says "Astartes" ...

Nope, the autosenses give Heightened senses Sight and Hearing, and Darksight. Can Make called shot as a Half action, tho, which is cool.

and Hey, an Avenger Shuriken Catapult CAN hurt a marine, and with FA 10, it's going to get plenty of chances. It's just not likely.

Lynata said:

You don't ahve to move away from your preferences. That;s why we have house rules. However, since you are diverging from the book, i.e., the current fluff, you are no longer in the same shared mythical universe. Just a really really close parallel one.

Until you get hired by FFG and can start writing fluff, that's just the way it is. Sort of like death.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

And even then, you don't get free reign to do as you want - there are things you can't do, and there's a general direction behind it all, overseen by Sam, Ross and Mack, and then there's GW's approval process. We don't get to make stuff up on a whim...

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Not quite, in this regard I just prefer GW latest Studio material over FFGs interpretation of the setting. But we'll see in a year or so if all of this was a true retcon or not.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

George Mann seems to think different. When it comes to editors, in the end it all depends on who looks at what for how long.

If Lynata's canon quote is correct (and I'm certain I've seen that same sentiment shared before with a fair amount of authority), FFG's take on the Astartes becomes, as the quote puts it, the "author's perspective" of the official universe, and though it shouldn't be discounted for the fluff it reiterates, changes, or introduces, I do think we shouldn't let our human brains find a pattern in a single instance, neh?

Also, and this may surprise some of you, I actually would prefer Space Marines, hulking genewarriors making gorillas look like pansies who then wear armor that enhances their strength further (and, even in previous fluff, to a greater extent than non-astartes power armor, though that might not true in special cases, like SoB - Lynata, please don't pounce!), to be issued weapons that really do have more potency than the bolters issued to what amounts to merely power-armor-enhanced-strength humans. Sure, an Astartes bolter is going to need to be able to take a greater pounding, but more powerful ammunition suited to a more durable weapon also makes a great deal of sense to me.

To be clear: I think previous fluff is as Lynata indicated. I don't necessarily think the previous fluff should be kept. I'm fairly certain, however, that a Sister's (or Guard's, or Inquisitor's, for that matter) Heavy Bolter should certainly be more damaging than an Astartes boltgun, though, again, less than a model built for bracing and strength only an Astartes, Ogryn, or insanely augmented.

Have I contradicted myself enough yet?

Unusualsuspect said:

Oh, there I actually agree - I was slightly surprised it only gave +20 like the Heavy Power Armour of normal people. I was expecting something like +30 at least.

On the notion of "more powerful ammo for a more durable weapon", though, do keep in mind that we're talking about self-propelled ammunition here. Technically, you should even be able to throw the projectile with your bare hand and it'll still do the same damage because it has its own rocket motor (that only activates after it has already left the weapon) which would propel it to the appropriate velocity regardless of initial acceleration. Just to provide a bit of technobabble.

Also: Angelus-pattern.

Like I said, I'm mostly aware of what the existing fluff states. There's also hints that the first bit of the shot is based on an initial charge (to prevent blowback and for close-in shooting, if I recall correctly), and a more durable weapon backed by levels of strength and bracing that mere power armor alone cannot match seems like it could handle a greater initial charge for the shot. Even if the ammo were the same (and the larger gun, while currently stated as firing the same ammunition, probably could handle larger shells with greater fuel for the gyro-jet or more explosives), the speed of the projectile could very well start higher than 'mortal' bolters from the getgo, and since the gyrojet certainly won't be slowing down the shot much, I can only imagine a greater amount of speed, and thus a greater amount of momentum, will be retained.

Again: This isn't what the current fluff states, but as many other posters have said, it certainly COULD make sense. It wouldn't pass muster as a reason for why Astartes boltguns are more powerful than Sister and/or Vehicle-mounted Heavy Bolters, though.

Ah, I could perfectly picture a somewhat more powerful initial charge making for greater "launch speed" - but given that the projectile's own rocket motor would kick in soon after leaving the barrel this difference would be negated after a few meters (see real world gyrojet experiments). And certainly projectile speed would only increase penetration, not magically increase the explosive force.

If we'd want to make really detailed rules I'd give Astartes bolters a bonus on Pen for targets within 10 meters or so. That'd be the realistic effect of greater barrel speed.

As an addendum (apparently edits only work within a certain timeframe, huh): For making sense of the disparity that was introduced by FFG, I would suggest simply looking at quality levels. Given that this RPG's Space Marines employ completely different echelons of quality where even the lowest one is supposedly superior to anything even an Inquisitor may get his hands on, this sounds like the best explanation for why an Astartes bolter round makes significantly more damage than an identically sized non-Astartes one. Similar to how C-4 is more powerful than TNT.

Lynata said:

Where does one find those, exactly? And why would 40k tech be limited in the same regard?