http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/equal

When one tank is superior to the other they are not equal. When one boltgun is superior to the other they are not equal.

Aside from the fluff specifically stating that their power armour provides "the same degree of armoured protection" - though people have tried to pick this apart and twist its meaning, too. And no, a difference of 2 points is not "the same degree", else we could just as well claim that Guard Flak provides the same degree of protection as Carapace. Seriously, how ridiculous does this have to get?

Instead of trying to negate quite crystal-clear official statements, how about bringing forth some quotes and citations yourself? Outside of this RPG, what led you to believe Astartes bolters are superior in the first place? Or, better yet, what led you to believe that there are two kinds of boltguns at all?

ItsUncertainWho said:

Separate is inherently unequal was the final ruling on that, firstly.

Secondly, I think what you're trying say is that semantically the term equal is not a mathematical or logical statement. For example, "all men are created equal." While this is a nice idea, it's clearly untrue. Usain Bolt will ALWAYS be faster than me. Curse my morbid obesity!

However, you're presenting this idea in a rather ineffective manner. When the word equal doesn't really mean equal it's because it's talking about nebulous concepts, metaphysical arguments, or philosophical conjecture. Something like the battle capabilities of Astartes vs. Sororitas is not a touchy-feely subject. It would be a matter of fact, just like the fact you mentioned about U.S. vs. German tanks.

Now, one caveat might be that they are equivalently combat-capable through different means. HOWEVER, I wasn't motivated enough to find the original quote, so its context is lost on me here.

Flail-Bot said:

"The Sisters of Battle are exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter."
Page 2 of their newest Codex.

Separate is inherently unequal was the final ruling on that, firstly.

This was the reason I used this example. Saying something is equal and them actually being equal are two different things.

Perspective and intent of statement define how a term is used. My example stated that both sides had tanks, not that the tanks were of the same quality.

Just like saying "Sisters and Astartes are equal because they both have bolt weapons and power armor" doesn't mean that a Sister and an Astartes are the same or that their equipment is the same.

I don't feel the need to disregard the RPG. I feel the RPG is just as valid as a 13 year old codex for the TT, especially since the RPG was written and approved by a GW owned company.

ItsUncertainWho said:

You are implying that an official statement in a Codex is a lie. I suggest you re-think your position.

ItsUncertainWho said:

You're still trying to desperately twist and distort the meaning of the quote, if not the quote itself. The citation did not say that Sisters and Marines are equal, it specifically said their equipment is.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Of course not. It's the one and only source backing up your claim. Not that this has anything to do with this discussion, as our little debate here revolves around a perceived flaw of this very RPG in representing the setting as we are used to it. So bringing up stuff from the very thing we criticize does seem a bit pointless.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Deathwatch wasn't written by BI - and even for Dark Heresy I very much doubt that the editors of GW actually compared weapon stats. I'm pretty sure some people would have otherwise scratched their heads at the idea of the Sisters of Battle, Inquisitors and the Imperial Guard using Civilian Weapons - and this is the very thing that would have been approved by GW were we to follow your interpretation.

It makes sense that Space Marines, who are bigger and stronger than normal men, would use that strength to carry bigger, more powerful weaponry.

And it is cool that Marines, the genetically enhanced champions of humanity, wield weapons that no unaugmented man can even lift.

It makes sense and it is cool. What more do you want?

Lynata said:

Never said anything about BI and Deathwatch. Since we are in the Dark Heresy forum and BI wrote DH and IHB, both of which contain text that states the bolters presented in these books are lesser than those wielded by the Astartes, I have issue with your argument.

"Civilian" is a very loaded term when you take into account that you are calling rocket launchers and machine guns "civilian weapons" since they are presented along side the bolters in question in DH and IHB.

Personally, I have never held the belief that Astartes weapons were the same as anything used by non-Astartes. The concept makes no sense to me. To believe this means that the extreme measures of making Astartes in the first place is wasted. If all you need is Joe guardsman in power armor and a bolter to be the equal of an Astartes, the Astartes are pointless. This is apparently what you believe the SoB's represent.

Given that an armoured Deathwatch Marine can carry more than a ton (1,350kg) without penalty they should probably have more powerful weapons than they do.

A 17pdr AT gun without its carriage weighs about 850 kilograms. That would make a pretty sweet anti-material rifle.

AluminiumWolf said:

A Marine boltgun is still only half the weight and 75% the caliber of a Sororitas heavy bolter.

You are effectively suggesting Marines should all run around with lascannons because they're strong enough to do so. They can, but this isn't what this discussion is about, is it?

ItsUncertainWho said:

In DH and IHB, Marine bolters were 2d10. About the same average damage.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Exactly, which is why I doubt the level of accuracy with which all of this has supposedly been approved by GW.

ItsUncertainWho said:

And again you are confirming my suspicions that a lot of people think that the one and only thing defining the Space Marines are the AP of their armour and how many dice of damage their weapons do. Don't you think this might just be a little bit shortsighted yourself?

In any case, the official quote stands and it has been so for decades. It is not GWs fault that Marine fans misinterpret their fluff because they wish the Space Marines to be even more awesome than they were actually meant to be. In a way it is understandable, though: I blame the hype.

Lynata said:

Without dragging Aristotle's Categories into it, "equal" is a word with more than one meaning and does not generally mean "exactly the same." That's why it has a qualifier attached to it, like "equal under the law" or "equal in number" or "equal in height."

For all we know "equal to the Astartes" may simply mean "with an equal number of fluff arguments as the Astartes."

Anyway, FFG has spoken and GW presumably has concurred. Marine bolters are better, like it or not, regardless of any earlier fluff.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

That's the entire point of this debate - people are discussing whether this RPG sticks to the other fluff or rather has created a parallel world in which, for example, Sororitas equipment is inferior to what the Arbites use, and where the Imperial Guard uses civilian weapons. We all know that Marine bolters are better here.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

For all we know "equal to the Astartes" may simply mean "with an equal number of fluff arguments as the Astartes."

Context and common sense. And if we really want to get anal about the wording the lack of a qualifier would rather mean that they're 100% identical because they would be equal in every way.

Aside from that I have already provided other quotes which do provide that qualifier which you seem to think is so necessary here. Needless to say they have been disregarded by the RPG just as much.

Still waiting to see if people can come up with anything official for a change rather than repeating biased opinions, by the way.

>>>>And again you are confirming my suspicions that a lot of people think that the one and only thing defining the Space Marines are the AP of their armour and how many dice of damage their weapons do.<<<<

Well it isn't like you are having a hissy fit over Space Marines getting a few extra points. If they don't matter you won't mind if the nuns are a little down. Just think about all the other cool stuff they have! :-)

People are alwayds going to be more interested in the glamorous, headline stats. I mean, seriously what do you expect?

>>

What good is a Space Marine who doesn't live up to the hype? Can we really see a situation where little Timmy goes in to a games workshop store and the man behind the counter says 'Now Timmy, I know you think Marines are totally awesome, but I have to tell you that they are not. They are merely a bit awesome. Sorry about that'.

A Space Marines sole purpose is to be as attractive as possible to 14 year old boys (and men who wish they were 14 year old boys). If something makes Marines more attractive GW and co. would be fools not to do it.

And I think that Marines having bigger guns on account of being bigger and stronger than normal men is a pretty seamless evolution of the fluff. Yeah, I can see that. Nifty, I think.

Lynata said:

"Common sense" is totally subjective. My common sense says that the ideal that SoBs are comparable to marines is ridiculous, both for reasons of in-universe logic and external reasons of universe design. Your common sense obviously is different, which is fine. HOWEVER, since FFG is canon, and new canon supercedes old, as long as you are using the universe as written in the canon, your common sense is wrong. : P

AluminiumWolf said:

Your words are wise.

Except that I think that GW and FFG have somewhat different target markets.

230 + replies to a thread. Woah. Personally I can see why FFG have ramped up the space marine power level somewhat for deathwatch. Mainly it's because a force of 1,000 warriors simply couldn't sustain the kind of casualties that they take in the average tabletop game; particularly when valuable (actually invaluable) geneseed and artifact weapons and armour would likely get lost or fall into the hands of enemies (which likely be would be worse that the actual loss of manpower to the average chapter). The only way that they could survive as a viable fighting force down the millenia would be if they were extremely good at the business of killing, and surviving their adversaries attempts to kill them; and they had the best possible tools to do it with. Imperial guardsmen are expected to be mowed down in droves in order to achieve a battlefield objective that marines might need to take and hold with a dozen men. Simply put, if they weren't as powerful as they are in Deathwatch then I feel they would be useless at the tasks they are required to carry out.

Well, I can't find a line that says that Space marines are armed with better weapons than anyone, I did find a line that shows that at least some of their equipment is superior to SoBs. As previously stated, a SoB Heavy bolter fires a 1.00 caliber bolt. The description of the SM HB on p 98 of the 5th ed codex says it fires "fist-sized bolts" now I'm a big guy, but my fist is about the size of a coke can. And certainly we can all agree that even using equal technology and material, that would be a far more damaging weapon.

So even if that is the only way they are different, they are still not equal.

Also, according to Necromunda (WOOO NECROMUNDA.... YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!) only stub guns are actually "Civilian" weapons.

A question for you, Lynata, if brothers and sisters are supposed to be equal, would you lower Marines', making them unable to fight the toughest enemies of mankind, (And they won't be able to, unless you nerf down the enemies until they aren't an insane threat to guardsmen) or raise sisters' gear to the level of Marines' meaning they won't really fit in with other Acolytes.

And what would you do to represent the Implants, if UT/US are too good? Keep in mind, Marines still need to be able to do their jobs, which is attacking things like Ork Warbosses, Tyranid MCs, Eldar Aspect Warriors/Exarchs, and the like. The Guard do a job the Marines can't, they fight the bulk of the WAAAGH, the exterminate the crawling carpet of gaunts, things that would make a marine tax his ammo, then get swarmed over. If a Marine is only a "point" or two better than a regular soldier, they will get pasted across the landscape.

The things they have to fight will usually automatically injure them, especially in Melee, which is where Marines tend to get stuck in. It's silly to hold a marine up to a single termagant. Stand him next to a Tyranid Warrior, and thinds start to look a little prickly for the poor Astartes.

vandimar77 said:

This is true as well. How else are they going to live for hundreds of years of constant war? (Unless their "angels of death" moniker is just PR and they really spend all of their time running away.)

Lynata said:

Make sure you realize that the only Astartes weapon in DH is stated in Purge the Unclean and is a Bolt Pistol, not a bolter.

I don't think SoB's need to be, or should be, the equal of Astartes to make them worth while. If you feel that Sisters need to be Mary-Sue-Equal-to-Astartes then go for it, I don't agree. Quotes spouting how great SoB's are that come from a codex that is focused on them and designed to sell miniatures doesn't carry much weight in my view. I don't dismiss it outright, but as with all things 40K everything must be taken with a grain of salt and put in context to the universe.

For what it's worth, the Emperor made the Astartes, not the Sisters of Battle. So by that logic yes, the Astartes are better in every way than Sororitas.

Bolt Pistols and Bolters use the same ammo, and do the same damage.

AluminiumWolf said:

Oh, but there is a difference between "wanting more more MORE" and simply "preserving the status quo", is there not?

AluminiumWolf said:

Naturally you have a point there, which is why I did not dismiss the option of simply treating DW as a different game altogether instead of toning down anything. It makes for reduced compatibility, but would preserve the vision it currently has. I just don't see why the other games and characters would have to suffer, though. When you're making a cut between the games, make a clean one.

AluminiumWolf said:

And since when does "bigger" mean "more damage"? Especially when the barrel size still remains the same ...

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Then it appears as if your common sense is out of synch with that in-universe logic, for I've never heard of anything in the fluff outside this RPG suggesting that the cal .75 rounds of the Marines are doing significantly more damage than other cal .75 rounds just because they have an Astartes stamp on the shell. In fact we do have statements to the opposite.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

To reiterate myself: This discussion is about FFG canon deviating from GW's. Studio material still trumps everything else, regardless of whether it's a novel from BL or a roleplaying game from FFG. I'll dig up the appropriate quote once I get home - I have it saved in a special textfile for occasions exactly such as this one.

vandimar77 said:

Oh, we're not talking tabletop stats*, we are talking core setting fluff here, straight out of the Codices. If you want to dismiss that you can just as well forget about the entire setting as there would be nothing left. Including this precious Marine awesomeness.

And there are still significantly less Battle Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines.

*: Though I still think TT stats should serve as a rough indicator. If the tabletop would be made anew using this RPG Sisters would run around with lasguns, for example - seeing that their supposedly "superior" boltguns are much closer to this weapon than to the Marine counterpart they're supposedly "equal" to. Doesn't strike me as very accurate. Unless all of this truly is the beginning of a major retcon which drastically changes this army's behavior on the table, in the fluff and in their novels, of course.

Fenrisnorth said:

This likely refers to the length of the projectile, not the caliber, which is still 1.00. Here's an official image but you could also compare the miniatures. Pretty sure it's also stated somewhere, I can take a look through the books once I get home (doesn't the Deathwatch book talk about this, too?).

Fenrisnorth said:

According to the majority of posters in this thread, new fluff supersedes older fluff. Which is true now? You can't have both.

Fenrisnorth said:

I think I would equalize the appropriate weapons to meet somewhere in the middle and implement a minimum strength requirement to prevent early acquisition - just like it works in the fluff. In addition to this I'd change the Battle Sister career to include Novice ranks again (like in IH), explaining why the character only gets the signature gear later in the game and not right from the start (as was done in BoM). The Novice ranks can be explained as some sort of "trial by fire" by detached duty in an Inquisitorial cell before being allowed to profess as a full Sister Militant when judged worthy.

Also, I still don't agree that a couple points of damage less will make such a drastic difference - unless we're talking about enemies that were deliberately designed to be tougher than they should be.

Fenrisnorth said:

Several posters have already suggested some different options on how to deal with the issue of Unnatural Toughness, such as changing normal TB to Primitive armour and let UT count for all. Or by simply changing UT to a flat +2 instead of x2. I think it'd require some gametesting to find out which is the best. Maybe it'd already be enough if we just raise the weapon damage, too. In the end I just think an Eldar Splinter Rifle shouldn't have zero chance to hurt a Marine, but that's just my interpretation of the fluff and I won't look for any quotes regarding this. In fact, wasn't it true that Aspect Warriors are completely useless against Marines, using the current rules and stats? I do remember this came up in another thread.

I do have to point out that you're slightly underestimating the Guard, though. They're not completely useless without the Marines when it comes to the big bad bosses, it just means they'll have to bring out the heavy weapons teams or the tank columns. The Marines aren't the Imperium's SWAT team that gets called in by the Guard as soon as a Hive Tyrant shows up - that they're better geared to take him on is a beneficial side effect of their "strike hard and fast" doctrine of deep-striking and overpowering an enemy's HQ, not because they were meant to replace the IG as soon as it gets tough. Surgical strikes vs siege warfare - two entirely different doctrines which result in Marines usually not even operating close to the Guard because they're too busy surprising their adversary by exploiting a weak flank or rear.

Also, to turn the question around, how do you expect an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor to fight a Daemon Lord with inferior guns?

ItsUncertainWho said:

See Fenrisnorth.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Reverse psychology? In any way, to reiterate again, I am not talking about making Sisters equal to Marines, I am talking about keeping their equipment equal, as it has always been that way. And yes, I do think this is necessary for them doing their job, apart from the important representative value they have for the Ecclesiarchy.

And I don't think Marines need to be, or should be, made even stronger than they already are to make them worthwhile.

ItsUncertainWho said:

As I have repeatedly stated: Feel free to counter them with other quotes - if you can find them. Until you can there is no reason to take anything "with a grain of salt".

Or are you telling me I'm f***ed simply because GW thinks they're not worthy an entry in the core rulebook? If you at least take that one as a reliable source, that is, given that Codices don't carry much weight in your eyes (does that extend to the Space Marine Codices as well?).

It is also interesting how I am the one supposed to "put things into context" but the Marine faction in this thread is utterly convinced of themselves being above this option - without backing up their claims. The notable only exception to this would be Fenrisnorth who started to dig through the books now as well.

ItsUncertainWho said:

For what it's worth, both organizations' equipment still originates from the same source. And I think you're confusing genetics with weapons manufacture.

Holy balls this is getting out of control. I love it.

Lynata said:

I will now build a Vindicare Assassin, I will have 12 dodges a turn with a 110% dodge chance. My weapons will do 2d10+2 Impact Pen 9 and inflict s -20 dodge modifier and benefit from accurate, so chances are I do 4d10+2. I get to hide as a half action and everyone that shoots at me has to do it one range modifier further away than I really am. I will have unnatural strength, toughness, and agility. If this character plays with a level 5 guardsman, he will outshine him at just about every turn.

Wait until the sister ascends, then give her a DW bolter, problem solved, keep the old ranks as you say, the 'trial by fire' portion of it. Modify the story a tiny bit to say that pre-ascension sisters aren't part of the 30k force (which, btw, still seems ridiculously small to do anything other than guard a bunch of chapels across the galaxy. At 1 million, the quote for the marines is '...with less than one marine per planet in the imperium...'

Lynata said:

Please see other thread- bigger often can mean more damage, as viewed in modern bullets that carry more powder or are longer. Caliber is only one measure of a round's size, and there is nothing I can find anywhere that shows a DH and a DW bolt round side by side, so you could call it a retcon, but it's a logical explanation.

Lynata said:

Okay, so the RPG did in fact change this, and I don't think anyone disagrees. You can as FFG but I have $10 that says the reason was A) to allow DH characters to use the iconic weapon of 40k, the boltgun, without totally breaking the balance of DH, and B) upgrade the stats in DW to allow the Marines to be as uber as the fluff (in the marine codex, I can provide quotes if you require them).

Lynata said:

I'd love to see this, because GW has to review everything that FFG publishes, which makes it GW approved, does it not? That's the way I see it work with companies like Lucas Arts, Disney, and Microsoft, I would assume it holds true here as well.

Lynata said:

Then why don't you come up with the HRs for it and stop the argument? I think the suggested +2/-2 brings them pretty close in line, or just wait until sisters hit 13k and give them an 'astartes grade' boltgun on their graduation into the 'real' sororitas.

Lynata said:

Right, or arrange themselves in hordes, which we do already

Lynata said:

Which Daemon Lord? If it's bigger than the ones in DH or Ascension, I expect them to call in the Grey Knights.

Lynata said:

What did I miss, was Aluminum Wolf here again? Who is talking about making them stronger?

Lynata said:

Yes. . I used to love Squats, I thought they were awesome (and I still have them show up now and again in my games), but GW apparently thought they sucked.

Ultimately I would suggest you move this from the main thread, which is going nowhere except in a circle, and move it into the HR section and come up with your ideas on where to restore the balance. In a HR section you'll probably get less venom aimed at you, too, and get some constructive balance feedback on your ideas.

>>>>Oh, but there is a difference between "wanting more more MORE" and simply "preserving the status quo", is there not?<<<<

Space Marines opponents are not space nuns or space orks or space elfs. As the biggest thing in hobby gaming they play a higher game. They are competing with anything else that people can spend their money and time on.

They compete with Master Chief or The Hulk or Avatar or WoW or Star Wars even Girls*. And it isn't 1987 any more. Standards of badass have risen across the board. Between ever improving video games and ever more elaborate CGI what was good enough then is not good enough now. We cannot allow a Badass Gap!

Power creep is a very real phenomenon, and if you are not doing it your competitors are. Compare Jedi now to Jedi then**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCyZ2P9bCA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A07WNupEXk

In short it is imperative that Marines power creep, not to keep up with space skaven, but to keep up with Mace Windu!

*They tend to lose this one

**The first line of 40k Rogue Trader (1987) goes 'if you have ever left the cinema or turned from the screen and wishing you could invent your own Death-Stars, Storm-troopers, whirling ornithopters and wild-eyed heros this is for you!' which couldn't say 'we are ripping off star wars with a side order of dune' any clearer.

The image you link is a guardsman's heavy bolter, so doesn't apply to what I was saying, from the images I've seen, bolt rounds are already about as long as a person's fist, so it wouldn't bear mentioning. in fact, upon inspection of the belt feed, the entire bolt+casing looks to be about the size of my thumb, from wrist to tip. It's a Godwyn Heavy Bolter, while the SM rulebook shows a picture of the "Astartes MK IVa" and hey, I just noticed there's two boltguns on the page, the Godwyn pattern, and the Astartes MK IIIsx..... anyways, the muzzle on the Astartes MKIVa looks to be of an appropriate size to fire a soda can. It is WAY bigger than the Bolter muzzle. Lookit the sizea that thing! (below)

I don't like calling lasguns and autoguns "civilian weapons", an autogun is essentially an assault rifle, Civvies don't need those. Never have. Never will.

And I'm not selling the Guard short, but Battle Tanks are very unwieldy, tanks don't fight infantry. And yeah, Aspect Warriors are appropriate for elite Guardsmen, Exarchs and Autarchs and Farseers, and Greater Daemons are the sort of things Marines should go after.... on second thought, maybe Greater Daemons are a bit much.

It's funny because I really don't think that under Deathwatch rules Space Marines are as omnipotent as some fans would like to see them; and I like that. I like the fact that they have to be deployed with some care and consideration, that they can't take a lascannon shot to the torso and cut tanks in half (or chuck APCs about). They are very potent soldiers but there are still things that can, at least individually, best them so they have to act as a team (or cohesive unit) to be most effective. I think that it's great FFG emphasised that small unit fireteam tactics are still the most effective form of fighting large numbers of opponents and surviving (as opposed to just leaping in with a chainsword slaying all and sundry). I think that they got things just about right in the game.

Lynata said:

There is no parallel world because there is not stable first world to begin with.

Alex