Okay, my 2 cents about what is different:

Contrary to common miconception, DW can be role-played very well. I had my doubts initially, I voiced them in the DW forum. But I have to say DW can be made to work.

However it is not as easy to make it work as Dark Heresy. In DH, getting into character can come quite easily once you are acquainted with the setting, DW is more challenging.

Why is that? It's because the Space Marines are less shaped by experience than DH characters. Experience can and does shape them but they all have made similar experiences, it's like running a one-class party.

What does it take to make DW work from a players side? You need to focus on inherent/innate character traits. Occasionally you will have PCs whose personality has been shaped by their experience as marine but this is a bit more unusual as Marines are normally quite stable, if not rigid, personalities. Character development can involve such unusual experiences or the struggle against personality defects, working towards perfection without achieving it.

In DH, otoh, PCs are subject to very different experiences of the game world, depending on career. Picking up on these experiences and weaving them into your story is much easier and often requires less thought.

From a GM's perspective DW is also more challenging. You need to pour in work to break up the flow of combat when it gets too monotonous and you need to keep an eye on ensuring things don't get too cliched or predictable.

This is also a necessity in DH as in every RPG but it's not as important as DW and its set nature lends itself to it especially.

Yeah, I like both. Right now, I enjoy the epic feel of DW. But the dirty, low-level feel of classic DH is something not to be missed either.

Alex

Totally agree. If I ever will write adventures for DW I will focus on action-oriented adventures, more than with DH which can have more investigation and character-based interactions. Space Marines more or less all have the same outlooks, motivations and goals, with only cosmetic differences.

It's also an "issue" of indoctrination, I suppose. This is a problem that some DH characters (most notably Stormtroopers, Sisters or mindwiped characters) may face as well, but the variety of the group makes it much easier for them to stand apart and come across as a unique person. Obviously, shades of disparity still exist between the personalities of such characters, but it's much harder to bring them up as they are usually limited to only slight variations in the levels of aggression, directness/focus or (in)tolerance towards something.

As some (sadly very few) novels have shown it is not impossible to make suck characters interesting without "humanizing" them too much. It's just somewhat more difficult and requires a lot of thought.

I like them both, too. They have different strengths (and- let's face it- some weaknesses, too), and I really hope we don't see a stupid "My game is better than your game" rivalry develop between the two.

Adeptus-B said:

Yeah. For what it's worth - and as much as I criticize DW's scale for breaking the compatibility between the different systems - it does bring a lot of cool ideas to the table which I wish to see in DH or RT some day, too. Its Requisitioning system, to name but one example!

Also, all criticism aside, I actually am convinced that it can be quite fun to play. I for one felt tempted as I read the book (and if I get the chance I'll gladly give it a try). In a way, you could describe it as another genre of RPG, kind of like different movies have different genres as well, without necessarily making one better or worse than the other. It boils down to what kind of genre you're in the mood for. Plus, it's not like you could not do this in DH as well with, say, an Imperial Guard campaign. It's just gonna be grittier, kind of like "A Bridge Too Far" vs "300".

@ Lynata: what about scale breaking the compatibility?

Dunno if I understand you right.

The Laughing God said:

One thing that kind of breaks the compatibility is the horde rules. Since there is no talents for DH characters vs hordes specificly, depending on the character you could feel a bit overwhelmed with the concept of facing 60 orkz, where in DW this is not impossible. The weapons do seem to be on a differant scale alltogether.

When me and my group tryed out DW we found that the fact you started as a super hard charecter was correct but not really what we liked. we perfer the way in DH it makes you worthless and rubbish at the start and you have to really work at it to be a "hard" charecter. i agree with the idea of these two games are completly different geners one "gladiator" (DW) the other more "saving private ryan".

I think it boils down to what kind of player you are and what kind of GM you have to what is liked there are reasons to play both game sets.

Lynata said:

There is a lot of good ideas to come from DW, which you can use in DH. I ran a 7hr game week before last using scout-marines (reduced stats, limited gear, skills and enhancements) as a parallel to my primary DH game, when they grow up, they'll be Deathwatch Marines. They do all the really, stupidly violent **** that I can't really do on a level in DH and before you completely write them off as angry retards on steroids, they do have their moments of brilliance when it comes to sheer destructive ability.

However, I cant run them next to RT characters like a DH character can function perfectly well, nor can you use them next to a pre-ascension DH characters either. There are just too many differences in their combat, weapon mechanics and character motivations, which I'm gradually bashing out to the point that I feel confident that one day I might have them next to each other on some level of functionality.

Course, nerfing "Marine Bolters" down to Dam 1D10+8, Pen 6 Tearing has worked wonders. Its still a good gun, its just not the insta-gib bull that a 2D10 tearing weapon is

Nimon said:

If we're talking fluff, Marine bolters in DH should be scaled down to 1d10+6 Pen4 (for normal ammunition) but count as a Hammer when used in CC and need an SB6 to wield. Or, of course, you could scale up the weapons of a DH character joining a DW game. It's not impossible to make it work, I just think it's bad that you have to houserule a lot of stuff. The systems were meant to work alongside each other, and whilst the general mechanics are still the same, it just seems to be too much of another world.

I didn't take a look at the horde rules yet, but that does sound like another issue.

Still, I actually am convinced now that all the games can be fun and are interesting in their own right. Before actually reading DW I always imagined it'd be like "Counterstrike the P&P". In a way, there is still some truth to that, but it's still way "more" than just that. Maybe I'll get to be lucky and actually play it some day, too.

I just treat TB as primitive armour. It really does not hurt normals much (they lose 1 TB sometimes two TB against non-primitive weapons).

Then all you have to really do is create a new talent or trait like "Juggernaut" or "Goliath" or "Invulnerable" that allows the character to treat his or her TB as if it didnt have the primitive trait. And assign that to whichever critters you think should have it. This allows a 1D10+6 PEN 6 TEARING bolter to be effetive even agaisnt marines (who soak <4TB +10AP -6PEN> 8 on average).

This is the thing that gets me, is that bolters should not be effective against marines in power armour. The use of plasma weaponry (Dark Angels field a lot, funnily enough) and kraken rounds, plus the development of vengance rounds is designed to take out traitor marines. I may start experimenting with unnatural stats adding a +3 to the stat bonus per rank though.

Peacekeeper_b said:

That's a pretty cool idea! Quite close to my own thoughts on the subject, too. Gives armour more meaning (throughout DH, RT and DW), makes normal people more squishy, and removes the imbalanced x2 multiplicator from the game without making Marines look too much like ordinary humans.

Little Dave said:

Why not? Boltguns are the primary weapon of the Astartes and throughout the fluff, novels and TT have been used against other Marines time and time again, way more often than any other kind of weaponry - and even if you factor in Vengeance rounds those are still fired from a bolter as well and technically don't change anything about the gun itself. Of course they are not as effective as more exotic weaponry (such as plasma), but naturally this doesn't change anything about their obvious usefulness.

Also, just as a sidenote, kraken rounds were designed for use against 'nids, hence the name.

The +3 is another good alternative to the multiplicator, though.

I don't see why there's always this **** talk about how Marines are too tough and/or that their equipment is too powerful.

Guess what, it should be more powerful, they explicitely get the best weapons and wargear that the Imperium can mustre for them. This even bears out in Dark Heresy itself, using its own rules, remember the Angelus Bolter? The special 'hunting rifle' that you can't get from the Fanes of Gunmetal city with the right connections. It's 2d10. So... what's the problem here? Are you planning on letting your DH players get their hands on Astartes Bolters? Why not just give them all Gause Flayers while you're at it. Making the game fun for everyone doesn't mean catering to the player's every whim, of course.

And if you're planning on throwing your players up against Space Marines.. well, unless it's just a single one against the whole team of acolytes, I'd wait until they've hit Ascension level, because they're going to get slaughtered, and they should get slaughtered. They're facing Space Marines.

Well I actually don't think the difference is that great. Sure, Astartes Bolters are overpowered in general, but if a DH character and DW one served alongside and both had the same amount of xp, the DH character would outdo the DW one in everything except combat. And with appropriate Ascension level gear it would not fall behind too much, and would generally have characteristics and talents that outdo the SM.

The problem would arise when they faced some dangerous DW opponents like Tyranid warriors and Chaos Space Marines. The DH character would soon find out he needs to succeed all dodges/parries since these adversaries can pretty much one-shot them with a lucky hit that the SM will barely feel.

It all depends on what kind of DH character is used. A vindicare assassin will probably outdo the SM, while a Stormtrooper will not have the Unnatural Characteristics to compensate.

Still if there are other challenges than combat ones the SM will be like a fish out of water and can do little except Intimidation and bodyguard work

Of course if the DW characters rises to say rank 5 or 6 it's a different story and they will get insane in combat.

And PS Kraken rounds are not anti-tyranid, it is anti-armor (like Krak). You may be thinking about Hellfire Rounds.

Blood Pact said:

And they are not the only ones, as DH/DW wrongly claims. It's a break from the established fluff to artificially make the Marines even more powerful than they already are as per the background. Added to that come the Unnatural characteristics which don't even make sense in the scope of DW itself - no, I do not buy Marines being almost twice as tough as the armour they wear, genetic engineering or not.

I don't know where people get these ideas from. Marines are insanely more powerful than normal humans, but not in every single aspect. As much as DW suggests this, there is no magical "ASTARTES" stamp which somehow makes their cal. 75 bolts do twice as much damage as the cal .75 bolts of Inquisitors, Sisters and Arbites, or which lets their promethium suddenly burn twice as hot. The fact that they do as per the RAW is either pure game mechanics to compensate for the more powerful opponents (which in themselves are compensating for the Marine's gamebreaking stat multipliers), simple hype, or a storytelling device to make the game feel more epic. Likely it's a combination of all these aspects.

Friend of the Dork said:

No, Kraken Rounds. The armour-piercing quality can, of course, be applied to any target, but the name itself strongly suggests a connection to the Astartes campaigns against the Kraken Hive Fleet . Chapter Approved mentions its ability to "pierce the toughest hide", which further implies intended use against organic armour, though I'm sure that somewhere it is explained in more detail.

If it'd be related to the grenade it would be called a Krak Bolt, anyways. Like the Krak Missile. Also, it should be noted that Kraken Rounds are Deathwatch issue, not standard Marine Chapter.

For me, roleplay is an extremely important aspect of DW, just as in DH. Our group may consist solely of Astartes, but each comes from a different Chapter (that said, we have two Ultramarines) and they bring very different values and perspectives to the table. The roleplay opportunities resulting from (generally) mild friction between those viewpoints is something we all enjoy. Also, even two Marines of the same class will (hopefully) come from different Chapters and thus have quite a different flavour and way of doing things (similarly, two Marines of the same Chapter but different Classes can be interestingly varied).

I agree with the general opinion that DH is more straightforward to play and easier to get into (but it is also helped by a wealth of supporting books and adventures that DW doesn't yet have). Still, if you like the idea of being a Space Marine (and exploring what that means through RP), or enjoy the Horus Heresy stories and other such Marine fluff, I think DW can be extremely rewarding as well. In spite of sharing a basic ruleset, they are actually very different games, but they each have their charm.

For one thing, the only way a Marine is going to be twice as tough as the armour they wear is if they get a toughness of about 70-80, which generally isn't possible, or cheap. You need to play a Techmarine to do it easily, and even then you need to roll pretty well. The unnatural characteristics make perfect sense too, especially when you're not assuming the power ratio to be like that of the tabletop game (not saying you are). If instead you gave a Marine a strength and toughness of 60-80 without it being unnatural, you'd then have problems with them being able to pass tests which use those two stats even easier than they do now, whereas now (in general) they have a lower chance of passing but get more from it when they do.

And as for power armour, well anyone can get power armour, Lynata. If you put all the durability there then any normal human who puts on a suit becomes nigh invulnerable. They become as tough as a Space Marine themself, and while power armour is supposed to be very.. well powerful, it's not as if it should be the primary source for a Marine's durability. This seems to be born out in the fluf too, where Space Marines are frequently qounded, their armour punctured, and they just shrug it off and keep on fighting.

Oh, and something I forgot in my last post. About the Bolters and Marines recieving higher quality weaponry. This does have some basis in real life, there are different qualities and grades of ammunition available, and a cheap knockoff rifle made in some third world country (shouldn't) won't compare to the genuine article, especially the military issue. The ammo fired by a Bolter could be just plain too powerful for a normal human to handle, as I remember the last discussion of them it was theorized that they're probably not a pure gyrojet weapon, that there's an initial conventional charge that propels them some ways until the rocket motor in them gets up to speed. IE: the rocket's 'first stage' is basically like a bullet.

Blood Pact said:

this.

but I feel we run the danger to get into one of those famous "marines vs sororitas" fights (again).

if marines were female they would still be much tougher and more god(ess)-like than sororitas ^^

Blood Pact said:

The way this increase in TB plus their armour works simply makes them invulnerable to a lot of stuff that kills them in the fluff.

I'm less concerned about their ability to soak a ridiculous amount of damage, though - it's an RPG, after all, and characters often walk through things that would kill people in real life here (DH and RT being no exception). The problem I see mostly lies with the weapons. Sadly, both are connected in that one seems to make the other mandatory to at least keep it balanced in DW, even if it means cutting the ties to DH and RT.

Blood Pact said:

Blood Pact said:

Blood Pact said:

I also don't see where the comparison of even the simplest pattern of boltgun to a "third world country knockoff rifle" comes from, given that they are supposed to be rare, expensive and only issued to the elite. You make it sound as if we're talking about lasguns and every ganger can just go and build one in his little underhive workshop.

DH/DW is the one and only thing in 40k that makes a difference between a Marine's bolter and everyone elses in terms of damage. As I said, I can understand it being necessary to compensate for the Unnatural traits and to provide a more epic narrative, but in that case the players and the writers should still acknowledge that this is purely an issue of scaling instead of coming up with things that have no basis in the fluff.

Even if we go by DH, a "standard Astartes round" apparently does 2d10 damage - which is an average damage of 11 compared to a "civilian" bolter's average damage of 10.5 - so where do these additional +5 suddenly come from? And if the black market has makeshift guns capable of shooting Astartes rounds, why can't Throne Agents get a proper bolter that does the same? Sorry, but even this just makes no sense as soon as you have characters able to go beyond what money can buy on the open market.

Just weighing in. Combat between DW and DH doesn't scale over, which is too bad because I'd love to see a mixed parties in DW. An Inquisitor, a Sororitas, Vindicare... all could make for really interesting additions to a party and provide some variety.

Fact of the matter is, they're two different (but very nearly similar) systems which require work to reconcile. Same with DH and RT... if you just give a DH character 5k experience, he'll beat the pants off a RT character; you also have to address the fact that RT advances on average cost at least 100pts more.

I'm glad the two systems are closely related enough that it only takes a few tweaks here and there to use them together, rather than a full-blown conversion.

Especially as Deathwatch teams are often led by an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, yes.

But I believe you in that it should be quite possible to make it work with a few tweaks here and there. It's not ideal, but it counts for a lot.

Lynata said:

Fundamentally, the Bolter is an Astartes weapon. It was made for them - well, their immediate predecessors - first. Several marks and patterns of Bolter were developed during the Great Crusade specifically for the Astartes and the Astartes alone, with little evidence to suggest that anyone else used them. The same can be said of Power Armour as well - all the original Power Armour in use by the Imperium was created for the use of the Emperor's superhuman soldiers, from Thunder Warriors and Custodes to the Astartes.

What this means in both cases is that all subsequent Bolter and Power Armour designs are essentially miniaturised imitations of the originals in use by the Astartes. It's all a matter of comparison - "mortal" bolters (I dislike the implications of the term "civilian" in this context, and prefer the term "mortal" to make the distinction) are rare and expensive weapons, symbols of status and prestige, sure, but they're still scaled-down replicas compared to the tools of murder borne by the Emperor's Angels of Death.

Lynata said:

To be blunt, it's been approved by GW, and is thus part of the background, whether you like it or not. If GW didn't want it to be so, they would have sent the manuscripts back to be rewritten.

Lynata said:

Same intent, different authors (indeed, different production companies), different context.

As games continue, different people have different ideas, and things change from how they may have been at the start. It's a fact of the industry.

Lynata said:

Because the reason the "black market guns" (which, if you read the description, aren't makeshift... merely illegal) exist is because it's not permitted for mortals to employ the munitions of the Astartes. That's the background for the Angelus-pattern Carbine - it exists because no legitimate means of obtaining or using Astartes ammunition exist for those who aren't Astartes.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I would imagine that various treaties forbid the Mechanicum from manufacturing Astartes wargear for use or sale to anyone else.

How would a clever Magos work around this?

He would scale down and degrade the performance of said wargear, superior to most mass produced weaponry yet inferior to the Astartes versions, therefore within the terms of the treaties. Profit starts to roll in, his status rises.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Also remember that much of the wargear of the Astartes is made in their own forges and armouries; it's one of the reasons Techmarines exist.

To be honest, I don't imagine the Mechanicus have much of a problem with the issue - they've likely got all manner of secret patterns and designs of weapon that the Imperium doesn't know about...