Ranek7212 said:

If it would be just a weird notion in some novel (such as "Redemption Corps" having a Sororitas Canoness ally herself with a bunch of Orks, or the Cain novels claiming that Sisters are perfectly free to get laid whenever they want) I'd just shrug and walk away, probably voice my dissatisfaction with the author's interpretation a couple of times once the topic comes up, but this RPG has a much larger effect on the perception of the setting as a whole, so I feel a need to point out what I see as a huge mistake.

I really don't think that Marine fans would act differently if something like this would happen to them. I've seen how many people still rage at Goto, which hints at a much stronger potential reaction for a product like the RPG. The reason for why it's not stronger in this case (though I've seen far more people voice their confusion regarding this than just myself) is probably simply because the affected fanbase is much smaller. That doesn't necessarily make these people wrong or unimportant, though.

Just to explain my stubbornness.

Lynata said:

Can't speak for anyone else but I have no problem with that. I'd have no problem running a Marine with you as a GM in your 40K world either. As a GM I would handle it differently though and if you'd have a problem with my interpretation and would refuse to participate as a player because of SoBs having slightly nerfed weapons (but your PC getting other bonuses to compensate)... then I'd say your attitude was off.

I think I'm pretty tolerant overall.

Alex

Nah, I'd just play a Black Templar and we could all have fun - it's not as if I couldn't work around said stubbornness when the alternative would just end up with everyone feeling awkward. And the Black Templars continue to hold a soft spot in my heart!

Plus, roleplaying a Marine character has its own challenges and temptations. A "proper" game of DW (meaning with a bunch of Marines) is one of those things I still want to get done one day, just to see how it's actually like with those rules. It's one thing to read the book, but another to experience them.

Lynata said:

In DW I allow a fair deal of power-gaming as a GM. Feel free to stack the effects of equipment, organs, talents and squad modes to create an unstoppable killing machine. Holy Vengeance attack pattern!

Alex

That is what I am taking about! You have to let some things roll off your shoulders and in the end this saying holds true to any game.

The GM is the final Say. Its his world, your characters inhabit it.

AluminiumWolf said:

AluminiumWolf, do you really want to argue that Space Marine's "awesomeness" is purely a function of over-powered weaponry? If the Imperium really was capable of producing the god-like small arms that the pre-errata DW stats depicted, then why would the Imperium bother with the massive expense- in both resources and time- of creating Space Marines? They could just mount "Astartes-scale" bolt weapons onto combat servitors and have an all-powerful army at a tiny fraction of the cost of creating Space Marines. Obviously, some of the epic death-dealing ability of "fluff Marines" is supposed to come from the Marines themselves, the product of elaborate implanted reflexes and massive ammounts of training- best depicted in an RPG with Talents and Squad Modes (not to mention tactics)- and not just the unmodified base damage their weapons inflict. Think about it: if an Imperial Guardsman with above-average Ballistic Skill and Talent in Heavy Weapons: Bolt were to pick up a fallen Space Marine's boltgun, should he really be able to rack up enemy casualities at the same rate as a Space Marine, purely by virtue of the weapon he is wielding?

Space Marines are armed with high-end small arms; it is supposed to be their super-human abilities that make them "epic".

Well, you have to remember that as far as I am concerned Marines should be toting weapons that bear more resemblence to an Apache gunship's 30mm cannon than an m16. The kind of armament you would create if you had an army of Hulks who needed guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-rDamkC320

Gun camera footage - I don't think they hit anyone it that one, but still, be warned.

Aluminium Wolf said: "The kind of armament you would create if you had an army of Hulks who needed guns".

Except The Incredible Hulk laughs at 30mm chain guns and could waste an entire squad of Marines and still be getting stronger . HULK SMASH!

AK73 said: "In DW I allow a fair deal of power-gaming as a GM. Feel free to stack the effects of equipment, organs, talents and squad modes to create an unstoppable killing machine. Holy Vengeance attack pattern!"

I once did this with a tongue in cheek Cyberpunk 2020 game which was a filler between two proper campaigns. I allowed them to take whatever enhancements and gear they wanted so long as they didn't drop below zero humanity. We had ex cops and spec forces with total limb replacements, twin flamers in forearms, jacked relexes and senses, implanted armour, wolvie claws, muscle grafting, bone density enhancement, implanted everythings and so on: in short some seriously pimped-out cyber-psycho death-dealers.

Poor buggers hardly even knew what hit them. It was an exercise in trying to encourage them to fight with their brains rather than relying on min maxing because you just can't enhance your way out of stupid behaviour. Three weeks and many casualties later one poor sap had lost three characters in particularly graphic and gruesome ways (yep, one each week). They all thought it was hilarious and enjoyed themselves immensely.

Zakalwe said:

and could waste an entire squad of Marines and still be getting stronger . HULK SMASH

That just shows your Marines are not Awesome Enough, and need to be made More Awesome. :-)

--

I don't think there is anything immoral about wanting to play with the high end hardware.

I take a Top Gear inspired approach - no one really gives a **** about the Dacia Sandero, but have five Hypercars racing backwards through burning hoops and we are getting somewhere.

Life is too short to deprive yourself of Awesomeness, especially Pretend Awesomeness.

Risk vs. Reward.

If characters are too awesome and everything is too easy, then the game is no fun. It instead becomes more akin to masturbation. Some people might like a bit of that once in a while, but I can't think of anything more sull than a whole campaign of it. Plus; I tend to prefer to keep my self-gratification private (by second guessing CSI plots...)

Lynata said:

The same place it says we're playing Movie Marines. Oh yeah, it doesn't say that...

Keep in mind that a lot of people look at the Deathwatch book and consider it a fairly accurate representation of how Space Marines stack up to other stuff in 40K.

Instead of the frankly insulting notion that we're a bunch of juveniles who can't get by unless we're playing some over-hyped, over-exagerated, little boy's macho fantasy...

It's as I said earlier. Everyone gets to be epic, but unfortunately even when they are they're still not equal. Ibram Gaunt isn't a Space Marine Captain/Chapter Master, he needs to take a few more levels of Badass before he gets to be a threat to Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants.

Since it seems as if everyone missed this, Lynata has an RPG based precedent for outrage. The Executor pistol in Ascension, a Bolt Pistol/Needle Pistol that deals (as a Bolt weapon) 2d10+4 and weighs in at 5.5 kg (Ascension page 137-138). That weight includes both weapons, which would reasonable say that an equivalent Bolt pistol would weigh in at ~3.5kg, the same as a regular pistol.

So, my whole line of reasoning that Space Marines do more damage because they can use bigger weapons is invalidated by the system that I was justifying it based on. So, in the context of the game, I say the SoB are simply rendered impotent (relative term) as a balancing tool because they fit better with DH characters in the RPG, and this is the only reason they aren't given the same quality of gear.

Again, it think this is the right decision, and while it favours the Space Marines and elevating their superiority into yet another tier, but let's face it, more people would like this then dislike it (as illustrated by the 30-odd pages of Space Marine advocates vs Lynata) and I wouldn't be offended to see these changes follow through into the TT game (as no doubt they will, see Ward's pissing contest with himself for details) but I most certain sympathize with Lynata.

Funny that you mention Movie Marines, because there are players here who were convinced that those rules were indeed conceived as an entirely accurate representation of actual Astartes capabilities. Until I quoted from the original article. And then there are players here who are convinced that Marines are on average 8+ feet high. Until I quote from GW. And then there are players here who are convinced that nobody could have access to Astartes equipment. Until I quote from the Codex.

I'm quite sure that this does not apply to everyone, or even the majority, but all these things just serve to strengthen my perception that a lot of Marine fans cling to a severely hyped and unofficial "idealized" version of the Space Marines and, often enough, don't even know their own favorite faction's true canon. Say what you want, but this is how it looks like.

Mechanics, rules and stats in DW are designed clearly beyond canon thresholds for the sake of delivering a more epic gameplay experience, and include special rules that cannot even be found in DH/RT (Guardsmen in squad mode? unthinkable) whilst lacking others (because we all know that Marines can't get corrupted, right?). Which is all nice and dandy, but makes crossovers awkward or outright impossible. And I really don't mind what people "consider" - all I can do is point out inconsistencies and provide Games Workshop's official opinion on the subject. If people prefer their own little world to the canon setting, that is quite simply a matter of taste and something that I am neither able nor willing to change, as it is their own decision and their own game.

Furthermore, I'm sorry that you continuously fail to understand - or have simply chosen to ignore - my core argument, which has never been about absolute equality but simply a representation both closer to the fluff and more compatible with each other.

And if you think you can get by without playing an exaggerated version of the Astartes, I would suggest starting to act like it instead of throwing insults at me and twisting my words, as you currently really do not sound like it.

There's nothing wrong with playing exaggerated ideals - I even admitted I would like to join in some time. Just like there are many different kinds of narrative options for novels, there can be many different ways of how to play an RPG, even involving different takes on the same characters. What I think is wrong, however, is trying to claim the sandbox for your own and shoving other kids out of it.

</rant>

[edit] The above was, of course, directed at Blood Pact - sorry, BangBangTequila. And I did not even notice the Executor pistol's damage before. Interesting.

I think put together Dark Heresy and Deathwatch it's like put together D&D and WoD, their concepts are TOTALY different, one is a representation of life in WH40K, the other is: BANG BANG!

I mean: how you can say a game is a 40K game if characters CAN'T be corrupted?

Lynata said:

Depends on what one accepts as Canon. The thing is that there is no unified Canon, especially not on the "true" power level of a Space Marine. There is a wide gap between TT Marines and the Marines in Brothers of the Snake by Abnett. Huge gap. And I am not sure if the mechanics in DW do the latter justice. Same with the heroics of Kantor and the surviving Crimson Fists during the Rynn's World incident.

I am not sure where you would pinpoint canon. In my 40K setting the Adeptus Astartes are the galaxy's premier infantry force. Sure there are Harlequins and a few other specialized troops but if the Marines could be bullied even by aspect warriors, as ancient and mighty the Eldar might be, the IoM could hardly be defended. Every Xeno that can feel fear should fear at the sight of the Deathwatch entering the battlefield.

Any other (read: lesser) interpretation might work with a tabletop game but starts to come across as silly in a RPG. If the Astartes are not high and mighty, why bother making a fuss over this merely 1,000,000 man strong force? It's already implausible enough if we were to assume AluminiumWolf's interpretation of Marines. It just creates enormous disbelief if the marines aren't even as good as DW makes them to be.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Yes, it depends on one's perception of the setting. Given the many statements by various GW people, it seems clear that studio material (army books, codices, etc) are the basis - whereas anything else, including novels and the RPGs, is an interpretation which is supposed to adhere to it.

Now, each of us just has to decide on whether he wants to go with what GW writes or whether to accept one of the interpretations (such as the RPG, or one of the novels you mentioned) as the highest authority. My reasoning for going with GW is that, because it is the basis, all interpretations are at least supposed to maintain a connection to it, whereas they are free to contradict each other. Quite simply, GW's writers lay down the facts and licensee authors would adapt to them, adding their own flavour to the foundation. Any more deviation would ultimately result in the interpretation splitting off from the main franchise, and whilst we have cases of such events in the comic industry, I doubt this would be a smart business move with Warhammer (and GW would likely object as well). As such, GW canon remains the more reliable source, or the "primer" for the universe, if you will.

This does not necessarily have to mean anything for this RPG. If you play the Pen&Paper, the standard would be that you play in FFGs interpretation of the setting, which supersedes GW canon for the duration you play in it - unless you houserule anything you deem "wrong" in order to minimize and gloss over the differences. If this is necessary is obviously a matter of taste and dependent on one's perspective. I for one dislike contradictions. The more consistent a setting is, the more useful the various sources are, and the more you are able to port ideas from one into another. As I previously admitted, I'm a canon nut. If I have two books, and both contain information that contradict each other, I can just as well go ahead and write my own stuff, because that would have the same value.

ak-73 said:

Here I would have to point out two things:

First off, though this is just how I understood it, the Marines are not "the galaxy's premier infantry force", they are the galaxy's premier shock troops. There is a difference, and it shows in how the Astartes deploy and for what kind of missions they are used, from their earliest inception to the modern times. Marines don't deploy in 10.000 strong regiments and waltz through waves of opponents to lay siege to an enemy stronghold. They send a hundred power-armoured supersoldiers, deep-striking directly into the target HQ to take out the enemy commander and sabotage the army's ability for Command & Control, whilst the Imperial Guard makes use of the resulting chaos by mopping up the now isolated formations with their superior numbers.

The Space Marines were never meant to be a galaxy-conquering army, that's what the Guard is for, and why the Astartes did not do the Great Crusade on their own. Marines are used to break through the thickest resistance, apply the maximum amount of force on the smallest location to make it break. Where the Imperial Guard is the Emperor's Hammer, the Space Marines are His Rapier. And this is why 1.000.000 Marines are perfectly enough to do the job they were originally created for. Because they're quite simply not expected to be everywhere (and suddenly, 30.000 SoB or 10.000 Storm Troopers make a lot more sense).

Secondly I wanted to point out once more that I have never doubted the Space Marines' genetical superiority. What I have consistently criticized is how it has been put into P&P rules, and the absurd and clearly un-canon (as far as GW is concerned) disparity concerning the equipment. An example for the first: a flat +20 modifier instead of the "x2" Unnatural traits would remove many of the "weird things" that have since popped up, such as Marine characters throwing stones that hit harder than a plasma gun or a naked Marine being tougher than the armour he wears (because to me, that is what causes disbelief), whilst simultaneously making non-Astartes slightly more useful to allow for novel-like crossovers. And he'd still stand out as remarkably superior.

I often get the impression as if many people think that taking away even the tiniest bit from the Space Marines as they have been written into the RPG would make them loose their status (just like it seems that many people only think about AP value when looking at how SM armour differs), but I simply cannot agree. It is not the strength that makes the Marine. It is not his toughness. And it is not the damage that his boltgun does. It is not even his experience. It is the sum of everthing and the way how these parts come together to form a well oiled war machine, whose efficiency stacks with every single Brother Marine fighting at his side.

To put it simply, I just think there still is a difference between Space Marines and SPESS MEHREENS.
Or: superhuman, not superman.

R.E. Executor Pistol

When you really need to kill an entire room full of marines who you gonna call, why the psychos that carry executor pistols of course. (Officio Assassinorum gets the BEST gear surely, there's not nearly as many of them).

Or The Hulk aye AluminiumWolf, Just like Red Bull, Hulk gives marines wings. Really, it's not a case of my marines not being awesome enough, it's your Hulk that isn't awesome enough (LOL). Remember the beginnning of Lord of the Rings (movie) where Sauron is sweeping a path through the plate armoured infantry with a massive spiked mace, that's the Hulk (or a demon prince) going through assault marines with his fists.

Oh I am such a **** stirrer and I hear that's heresy.

Lynata said:

Well as most seem to forget rocks would be a primitive weapon, even when thrown by an Astartes. So, no, a rock wouldn't hit harder than a plasma gun if thrown.

A side question, how many of those 30,000 SoB's are left after the Grey Knights gutted a planet full of them and used them as 'protection against chaos' salve? Since this is now canon I might have to ask my DH GM if my assassin can hunt up some Sisters innards for personal use.

++++Or, to put it simply, I just think there still is a difference between Space Marines and SPESS MEHREENS.++++

Yes. By and large SPESS MEHREENS are more fun.

I mean, we are not talking about playing the touching story of five women whose fates are linked to one man. And a dog. And some guys. And it is an angel dog, and it flies. And the women are all sisters. And their mom has diabetes.

By the time one has elected to play a Space Marine, the taste police are already hammering on the door. Why not go for balls to the wall macho uberness fun?

If ever there is a time, in all of gaming, to put aside all thoughts of proprietry and trade in the sensible practicality of a Honda Civic for the vulgar excess of a Bugatti Veyron it is when playing a SPESS MEHREEN!

Marines exist solely to be as cool as possible. Of course people are going to come along and think that Marines would be cooler if only... And I don't see that as a bad thing. Standards of badass have risen massively in recent years. When I got in to it Marines were The **** as far as fantasy badasses were concerned. I thought their powered armour was a little weak compared to the Marauder Suits in Starship Troopers (the novel), but hey ho.

But now we have everything from Killzone through God of War through massively easier access to Anime to keep up with. One cannot simply remain static as everyone else feeds their cool ideas in to the pot and builds on each others ideas.

++++Remember the beginnning of Lord of the Rings (movie) where Sauron is sweeping a path through the plate armoured infantry with a massive spiked mace++++

I have it indexed, for showing how I want my Marines to behave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZYzsQhm9tU#t=2m44s

Hell, I've probably already posted it in this thread. I usually do at some point.

The other big one is this, featuring an Unarmoured Spess Mehreen fighting a similarly naked CSM:-

I never read superhero comics as a kid*, so I have no deep seated love of Batman or The Hulk. But I was in to Space Marines. So whenever I see something cool I think - Man, I wish Marines could do that, or Wouldn't it be cool if Marines were more like that. I want to bring to Marines what the people making blockbuster superhero movies bring to their iconic characters from their youth.

I love Space Marines. I have done as long as I can remember. There is nothing in all of gaming I'd rather play than a Space Marine. But I want to keep my Marines current with the latest standards of cool.

*That isn't entirely true - I got 'Spider Man and Zoids' for it's entire run, although I prefered the Zoids section of the double-bill.

ItsUncertainWho said:

We actually calculated that. Check my post #518 on page 35 - though as per ak-73's reply #524 you can apparently achieve way higher damage still if you really take everything the system puts into your hands.

True, it would still only be primitive damage - yet this only really counts if the target wears high-tech armour, and if what ak-73 calculated is true, even half damage would still be more. Unnatural Strength bonus and some of the abilities really seem to be quite ... cinematic.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Well, canon states that the numbers are constantly fluctuating, a high rate of attrition off-set by an influx of new Schola recruits. The Sisters Militant may not be that many, but I am sure that they are able to replace any losses much faster than it would be possible for a Space Marine Chapter. Which in turn is balanced by few Marines dying due to their superior constitution etc.

As for the GK Codex, wasn't it "just" a Preceptory? Either way, it could not be worse than Armageddon, which left the Order of Our Martyred Lady with no more than about three Companies of Sisters. Interestingly, the 5th Edition TT Rulebook notes that there are only three major Orders left. Three out of where once were six. If this is no mistake, I wonder what happened to the other three, and which are the ones that were kept.

PS:

AluminiumWolf said:

Absolutely. I rather see that as a bad thing, though - which is, I suppose, why our opinions differ so much. Where you see higher standards, I just see a massive inflation. What once was considered epic is not good enough anymore, yet whatever comes after it will inevitably be surpassed by the next week's thing, like in a constant game of one-upmanship which "I just don't get". Maybe it's a generational thing, or maybe it's just the selection of movies I grew up with, or maybe it's just my preference for gritty realism (for the record, I still enjoy movies like "300" though!), but that's my motivation. I won't try to dissuade you from yours, of course - we should all be able to have fun!

@ AluminiumWolf

"I mean, we are not talking about playing the touching story of five women whose fates are linked to one man. And a dog. And some guys. And it is an angel dog, and it flies. And the women are all sisters. And their mom has diabetes".

Hear Hear, I second that. Except, get this, no one will be expecting it, one of them is... ... wait...

....a vampire...

....who is rivals with the local wizard because they're both in love with the same werewolf, but the werewolf loves the dog and wants to make flying angel werewolf pupies, but the dog belongs to the five women who have to take turns walking the dog. Of course, the're not happy about sharing so they make allies with the vampire and accidentally all fall in love with him too because of his deathly pout and undying vulnerablility... BARF.... and I just finished lunch.

Fraken Heresy, send some space marines after the mellon-farming producers of that one.

I hope you don't think I'm dissing your marines. I really like the space marines, they beat all their imitators hands down and it's still cool with me that we like our marine power levels is a different place. Great that we can discuss what we like while keeping a smiles on our faces (just don't smile too much around here or the Ordo Hereticus goons will be bashing in your door)

And if dreadnaughts could fly, Robert Heinlen would have put them in his book. It's a great book, they really only brush over all the social philosophy in the movie (oh but I do love that movie too) which is to be expected, but it is worth reading just for that. The Marauder suits are a bonus.

Lynata said:

No, not really. GW is actually cleverer than that. Let's have a look at history. First there was the TT, RT-era with all its super-cool weird fluff. GW realized that the TT stats were not good enough for how they described Marines to be. So they adjusted the stats in WD129 (I have it lying right next to me right now, so that's why I know). In the years after there was a new edition and the fluff actually grew. Space Marines were the icons of their game line and it sparked the imagination of people. Alas, TT stats were not matching what people (including GW staff) wanted Space Marines to be, thus the concept of Movie Marines, of novel marines, developed itself. With full GW approval.

Having two divergent interpretations was actually a shrewd move, as it allowed the Astartes to properly function in their realm. By now we have actual movie marines (Ultramarines movie) as well as RPG marines.

In what you call studio material the interpretation of the Astartes serves a certain purpose. Just as in novels, movies, or RPGs. Or video games. And the meaning of that interpretation is actually limited to that medium. I can deliver you lots of quotes from studio material about how great and unstoppable Marines are or stories about the heroics of individual marines. However similar stories exist for every army because they want to sell everyone of them.

Viewed in this light studio material (rulebook, Codices, etc.) does not deserve to be given credit over other interpretations even though the tabletop lies at the heart of it all. You would have a point if you could claim that the studio material was the most honest representation of the 40K setting from GW's side, that it depected the universe as they envision it and that it was not heavily influenced by concerns about game balance and making all armies sell, thus having to depect them all as more or less same awesome.

Novels have other constraints, namely making their protagonists appear awesome, same with movies... and actually RPGs too, apparently.

Therefore your assertion that everything else is supposed to adhere to it makes little sense. All that is required is that other interpretations are sufficiently recognizable (and even that can be circumvented BY GW saying: we always imagined Marines that much bigger than life) and do their job within the given medium (which in the end amounts to generating revenue).

Lynata said:

Go by fluff that makes every army owner feel good about their choice of army. Yeah, no thanks, I won't go by that. And I wouldn't expect most other gamers (or authors, game designers, etc.) to go by that either.

Lynata said:

There is no highest auithority because there is not one ultimate interpretation of 40K fluff. 40K RP as a whole at least has the least constraints. It does not need to make every faction be super-awesome and it's enough if the protagonists are awesome enough in their realm of gaming.

Lynata said:

We have to make a distinction here. There is basic facts that you as an author can't get around. And if you do there will be much rage (see CS Goto). However there is a repeated, consistent interpretation of the Astartes out there that is free from TT constraints. This interpretation has been accompanying your studio material for years now and it looks as if it will accompany TT fluff for many years to come in various forms. It is not an individual branch off, it's a permanent thing that does not get adopted into your studio material because it would induce much rage and a sense of rejection in non-marine gamers. Not only that but the divergence between studio fluff and gaming experience would become all too obvious.

The TT constraints of studio material invalidate said studio material as the ultimate source. The consequence is that one has to have a look at the whole package and settle on an interpretation that fits best.

Lynata said:

I am totally un-canon, I have little use for it. What canon is good for in 40K RP is to create a feeling of authenticity and allowing you to share experiences easily with other gamers who know the official canon but wouldn't know your own re-interpretation/setting, making stories and stuff comparable to each other.

It is the vague nature of 40K that appeals to me. It is the fixed canon of Star Wars (from what I can see from afar) that turns me off. I never watched the new trilogy, I don't fully understand the backstory, I am glad that I don't. It's more fun knowing the plot of the old trilogy only and that's it.

As for porting ideas, I don't see any difficulty, you just need to adjust according to the new interpretation. Part of the fun.

Lynata said:

That is old news. So do you think if the US didn't send 50 but 5000 special forces soldiers to supplement let's the entirety of NATO armies to conquer the planet... do you think it would end the battle quickly so that the SF could move on? Any semi-smart insurgent army would decentralize in the face of marines. It would rig their command & control structures (which actually are more efficiently destroyed from the air or the void) with explosives in case of Astartes arrival, possibly blowing up entire squads of marines (a devastating blow to a chapter of mere 1,000s).

There is simply no way that 50 men can make a difference in a battle of millions unless those have sticks as weapons maybe. Not to mention that knocking out the enemy commander has probably no effect as provisions for that may have been made. Not to mention that you might not be able to pinpoint the location of the enemy commander.

I mean, the whole thing is for 12-year olds: "Yo, you kill the leader of the bad guys and the war is over."

Lynata said:

Exactly and that means any insurgency that does not give up when losing their command & control structure and which does not give an inch of ground even though it's incapable of coordinated attacks will tar pit the present Astartes indefinitely. It's like knocking out Command & Control in Libya. So far the response to that has to be "So what?" Misrata had nearly fallen in spite of that. Now transfer that to a continental scale and the impact of your marines will be meh.

Lynata said:

Weird things are bound to pop up in a game that scales from lowly Acolytes to high and mighty Astartes. I don't take it against 40K RP. House rule that on thrown weapons, you only get half the SB. If you then make up individual damge stats for individual improvised weapons (thrown rocks, thrown SUVs, etc.), the problem has been solved. As you can see what you attribute to the multiplier mechanic can be corrected easily because it seems to be more of a throwing problem.

As for Marines being tougher than his armour - I am glad you raise that again because I have been wanting that you are wrong about this before. I don't think Toughness means what you think it means. If a naked Astartes gets shot and takes 8 damage points which get absorbed by his T, it doesn't mean he ain't bleeding. It just means he hasn't lost any wound points which in real world terms means that it's not the kind of wound which would lead to his death if he'd experience a comparable wound 5 or 10 or 20 times or so. It might be even a deep, bleeding flesh wound but one that can be easily compensated by Astartes physiology, thus not leading to wound point loss. So how do you compare Marine toughnes versus armour (which is about stopping penetration)?

Lynata said:

No, I don't think taking away from Marines would make them lose their status. I'd even play a PC in a campaign based on a RT-era setting, would be just great. As a GM my interpretation fits that of FFG though (inbetween TT marines and full movie marines) and if I was an author, I'd have come up with the same power level as FFG.

I don't want them to throw trucks at each other but they need to clearly best every normal mortal or else it's like "Oh, 1,000 Space Marines have arrived? By the time this war is over, they'll be down to a 100 at most." The interpretation you seem to have in mind would not impact any war of millions and the losses of the Astartes would be staggering.

Actually they would be staggering with the stats as they are already. Massed artillery fire would diminish entire chapters.

Alex

Lynata said:

They certainly were intended as a galaxy-conquering army, and I think that you're ignoring tracts of canon by ignoring that. Not galaxy HOLDING perhaps, but conquering: Yes.

They don't deploy like that now, but they did. The Legions were the primary elite infantry fighting force and the 'flavour' of them all does point heavily to them being involved in all kinds of non-shock roles, such as siege warfare. The decapitation strike was the trademark of Horus' legion, which is indicative of it not being a standard all-purpose tactic, and some Legions specialised in attrition rather than maneuvre warfare. Truth was that they did deploy at that strength and dominate the battlefield.

Recent 'times' and canon now points at them as being an elite strike force who use decapitation tactics regularly, but that's an evolution. It's also not how they're represented in what is by far their most common field of battle, which is of course the table-top. The vast majority of Astartes conflicts are played out not in fiction or WD, but on lumps of wood in people's houses and in GW shops. Here they are pretty much drudge infantry, fighting in open battle and attriting their foes.

Didn't play much WFRP then, I'd guess...?

ak-73 said:

To be fair, it tended to work right up until about 400 years ago. But yeah: This idea of marines ending wars in 5 minutes is a little odd. Especially given a game-world where (in TT) we are taught that generals are always the biggest, baddest guys on the field of battle and will invariably be leading some kind of assault team, and loaded for bear. You'd think if the war depended on them that they'd be in a bunker somewhere...

ak-73 said:

ak-73 said:

"Thankfully, most people understand the concept of dramatic license, an amusing little technique that involves exaggerating or ignoring facts, physical laws and general plausability [...]"

Which works fine as long as you apply this dramatic license to everyone, equally. But not as an excuse to belittle other factions who have just as much a right to it as "what people wanted Space Marines to be".

ak-73 said:

ak-73 said:

As far as I'm concerned, FFG had two options here. Either do an interpretation in line with GW's own universe or simply state that DW is supposed to be a heroic standalone game not compatible to the other books. However, they did neither, instead opting for overpowered characters with special rules and unique mechanics and still claiming that you could do good games with the other careers.

Now, they seem to be backpedaling, slowly and discreetly - by introducing "optional" weapon stats rationalized with "faster dice-rolling" (rather than admitting there may have been a problem that, in the case of the heavy bolter, even broke DW itself) and announcing two different sets of mechanics for the upcoming Grey Knight careers, depending on where you use them. Not that I think those will go far enough, but ymmv.

Well, at least you seem to understand why I, being used to the setting as defined by GW, feel like I'm getting shafted here.

ak-73 said:

ak-73 said:

Also, what package and what interpretation would you look at instead of what GW provides? The one that lets technology not care about who wields it (because frankly, that's just how technology works) or the one which requires separate mechanics, which has "optional" erratas, and which you admit needs massive houseruling to even remotely make sense?

I would also like to know what this consistency is that you think exists outside the TT. Because it doesn't exist in the novels or the comics. If you include the old Inquisitor game, the three different sets of stats for Astartes gear in FFG's games, and the upcoming Daemon Hunter book, it doesn't even exist in the RPG.

ak-73 said:

ak-73 said:

ak-73 said:

Siranui said:

Yes, there are Chapters that specialize in siege warfare (Iron Hands iirc), but they are specialists who are called upon when there is a stronghold that is too tough even for the Guard, which is a situation that, though this is mere conjecture, does not come up very often.

There's also a GW fluff blurb about Canoness Aspira leading the Order of the Bloody Rose - about 6.000 Sisters during peak times - through the liberation of a hundred worlds from the tyrant Denescura, and you don't see me using that as a justification to circumvent studio canon.