Frankly, it looks like you're getting bent all out of shape because you made up your mind about this before you even made your OP, and are now finding that next to noone agrees with you.

I don't see why they should get anything like Blademaster either. One paragraph from some fluff is a bull reason to be handing them talents or whatever, I don't care if it's from their most important book ever. You don't see Black Templars getting Tactics (Void) for free, but they all live on a starships (maybe if they had T-Pain there to cheer them on). Give them the option of taking a ceremonial sword, like the Dark Angels, and they're fine.

Cause hardon for duelling doesn't really translate in to a commesurate battlefield proficiency with the blade.

Wow, and I thought I got passionate about things.

AK, you were talking about this Book of Five Spheres earlier and how it is a reference to Go Rin no Sho (The Book of Five Rings). This is not really an argument in your favor. While Musashi did favor the use of the sword, he did not advocate its use when other weapons were more appropriate and conducive to victory. If The Book of Five Spheres is in any way similar then it does not advocate using a blade over a bolter when faced with enemies that are too far away to charge at across a flat empty plain devoid of cover.

There is a fair bit of difference between a duel and live combat in a war-zone.

ak-73 said:

Howdy!

Help me with the Facts:

1. ? More so than the other codex chapters? Didn't Dorn refuse to carry a sword after the emperiors Fall?

2. Importance does not make you good at something. ie..We all know diet and exercise is important, but America is obese.

3. Yes absolutely, but this does not support your case.

4. Their fluff and the miniatures are missing a sword focus in the TT.

But I am kind and caring so the IF can start with a sword as a trapping vice a combat knife like several other chapters, and what the heck it counts as customized. ie 1 level higher quality and free quick draw with it.

Blood Pact said:

I'm quite fine with my shape, but thanks a lot for getting personal. Let's run this through point-by-point.

Blood Pact said:

I suggest you stop spreading lies.

Blood Pact said:

So? I can stand to my point-of-view even when next to noone agrees with me.

Blood Pact said:

They don't have a Codex of their own I am afraid and I work with what is being given. Also your choice of wording is poor, adding a talent to the advancement chart is offering them an option for a talent and not handing them a talent, so next time think twice before you speak.

Blood Pact said:

And I don't care if you don't care, I just care about argument and up to this point, the only argument you have brought forth is that it's only one paragraph.

Blood Pact said:

Yes I do because every Space Marine gets one tactic for free and it's very easy for a Black Templar to choose that if they are among the brethren who are responsible for conducting warfare upon their fleet. Unless your choice of wording is again poor and you meant to express that they should get Tactics(Void) for free in addition to the Tactics every SM gets.

Blood Pact said:

Again I suggest you brush up your reading abilities. My post directly preceding yours included this:
"As for your suggestion with the exceptional quality sword, it's not the choice I would have made but as in the case of the SW's Counter-attack and Flesh Render, something I could live with."

Blood Pact said:

I suppose if you are holding the sword above all others, it doesn't translate into special proficiency with blades either. Your point has been made before and it has been addressed by me.

To summarize the arguments of those who see it differently than me: "We simply haven't perceived the IF as a close combat chapter before, therefore we oppose the notion." But adding one blade-specific talent (it doesn't have to be blademaster) doesn't turn a chapter in a close combat chapter.

And the description of 'passionate' of your above post is a very flattering one. Disrespectful is another term that would come to my mind and I don't have too much tolerance for that. If you can't debate something in a courteous manner, you better stay out of it.

Alex

@Daisuke: "While Musashi did favor the use of the sword, he did not advocate its use when other weapons were more appropriate and conducive to victory." I appreciate your argument but let me try to counter it this way: if we thus gave the IF the "merely" level of swordmanship that Miyamoto Musashi possessed, I would say that Blademaster is not enough. You see what you said does work in my favour: Musashi did advocate the most suitable weapon but he is nonetheless the Japanese swordmaster to these days.
You see, the reason I have been making this argument isn't only because the IF treasure the sword above all others. It's this attitude towards the sword in combination with their above-SM-standards perfectionism. I want players to understand: "Dudes, these guys take sword-fighting seriously." And if that hasn't been accurately modelled in the TT so far yet, so what? DW needs to expand on the rules anyway for those chapters who don't have a Codex of their own (ie, all following chapters). I suggest picking up on such paragraphs with the White Scars, Ravenguard, Iron Hands too. To me, it's about multi-dimensionality. Just giving the IF Siege talents and tactics (due to being Codex Astartes fanatics) is a bit like an unnuanced answer.

major shultz said:

Ah, argument! Much better than bloodpact's nonsense post.

major shultz said:

Even if he did, his Sons have adopted a tradition of carrying the sword and practicing with it.

major shultz said:

Hold on, do you really think that comparing the sons of Dorn and modern day American citizens is a good idea? Given the no-nonsense attitude of the IF, I think it can be considered factual that if they consider something important, they will be very good at it.

Would their perfectionism allow for anything less?

major shultz said:

I think it does. How are you going to differentiate all the many Codex chapters in the RPG and give them a unique character? Leaving the IF aside for a moment, you will have to either invent stuff or you will will pick up on existing stuff and develop it further. I said this before: suppose you have another siege specialists chapter (and among the 1000 there will be a number of them) - how do you distinguish them advance chart-wise?

Some guys here acting like I have suggested that the IF should be given Lightning Attack, Wall of Steel, Flesh Render and Crushing Blow all for free at char creation. I have been suggesting a single blade-related talent should be included in the advancement chart to underline the fact that the IF hold the sword in special reverence and are conducting honor duels. Given that this was my suggestion, the reactions of some here are way out of line.

And my argument for that is that including such a talent is going to draw player's attention to that aspect of the IF. They aren't just siege specialists, they have this East Prussian Junker flavour to them.

major shultz said:

Yeah that's the point. In the TT they don't get the same exposure as the other DW chapters (minus the Storm Wardens, they are new). Now they do. And the TT doesn't allow for finer distinction of bonuses. A RPG like DW allows for more nuances.

major shultz said:

All Space Marines have Quick Draw anyway. I said before that I could live with it even if that was not my preferred solution. Even just giving the IF such a trapping draws some attention to their honour duels and honouring the sword.

Without anything, it comes a bit across like "Oh yeah, they hold the sword above all others and do honour duels and such but it's not really that important." And yeah any good role-player will handle it differently but I think the crunch should provide mechanics to guide players too.

Alex

Ok, before you were just being stubborn. Now you're being obtuse and willfully missing the point. In a ritualized duel, the entire outcome is predetermined as both participants follow a choreographed routine. This differs from chapters that have close combat as an overriding combat doctrine in that what the Imperial Fists do is done in a completely safe environment governed by very specific rules and is not a life or death struggle. They probably focus just as much on not hurting each other as they do on following the movements. This differs completely from the Black Templars, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves in that they take pains to hone their skills in life-or-death struggles in battle on an active war zone.

I've already said that there's not much point furiously debating the point because fluff is open to interpretation and bias. If *you* want to give the IF Blademaster; go for it. Just don't expect everyone to unilaterally agree the point - especially given the limited scope of supporting evidence - and please don't get bent out of shape when we don't.

It's not like I haven't pondered your point before. But you say that you recognise the influence of German philosophers and Prussian discipline as the core concept of the Chapter. So why not make that the focus? If you've read the IF fluff, why not research what lies behind the fluff instead of taking it at the surface value [eg: duelling = being good with sword = more sword skillz]. All that talk and description of the duelling style used by the Chapter is very clearly a reference to Mensur. So I'd really recommend doing some reading on the subject. It will very quickly illustrate to you that Mensur is not about swordsmanship at all: It is about courage, honour, dignity and discipline.

I also don't believe that a passing reference to something that sounds a little like Go Rin No Sho is any kind of evidence of anything, save that a writer/developer likes making pun-ish name-drops. As for their 'would their perfectionalism allow for anything else', I would perhaps argue that every hour spent pracitcing very formalised duelling techniques is a wasted hour of actual combat training, much akin to making combat soldiers spend hours square-bashing.

I'm not saying the RoB rules aren't bad for IFs. They are. They're lack-lustre, fail to even focus on the disciplinarian core concept of the Chapter (apart from giving them that ill-advised +10WP) and seem to have been given 5 minutes consideration when compared to the other Chapters. And Tactics (any) for 100xp is just laughable. It's just that 'it mentions swords in the fluff, so give them sword stuff' is nearly as ill-thought-out to my mind as the original build, because it once again completely over-looks the first thing that the Chapter is about: Discipline. Resistance (any) and some cheap Wounds would be far more obvious and far less a contentious ommision to resolve. I'd say that this one: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=179&efcid=3&efidt=385860&efpag=2 is a far better representation than simply stapling on a sword-based talent to the existing model.

Siranui said:

Well, I don't expect that. I thought I was just debating with a bunch of other fellows this point on the internet. I don't feel being out of shape at all, I must say, and I have no idea where the perception comes from. It's just that some people (bloodpact) actually can't debate without getting personal.

Siranui said:

First of all, let me tell you that I am a German math student, so it's actually quite close to home. Secondly, I do not think that 40K is about realism. As you have noticed 2H-Weapon stats do not reflect real world use but rather the pulpy memes surrounding them. In that vein, it would not to be off to give the IF some blade-related talent.

I am not so much arguing from a simulationist POV. I'm arguing from a game's perspective.

Siranui said:

I liked his going from rings to spheres. :-)

Siranui said:

You're talking from a pov of realism again though. The actual question is: if you look at how 40K and DW as a whole works - would it be out of style to give a bonus based on that or not? I think the answer is that it wouldn't be out of style. Would it be entirely realistic? Maybe not. But that's not how 40K works, does it? In 40K blind rage and hatred is generally considered an asset to marines. In real life the tactics and the mentality of the Space Marines would prove to be their undoing quickly.

Siranui said:

Yeah, Siranui and that's where we diverge. I basically agree with your assessment about discipline and being hard in spirit (and body). But I seek to avoid the chapter advances focussing only on the stuff that forms a chapters very core. Do not give the Blood Angels only close combat talents. Give them also some art skill.
The Space Wolves should neither be given only close combat skill, nor all that socialising stuff but a mixture. Don't give the DAs just Interrogation and all that secrecy stuff (at least they get driving and piloting advances although I don't know if that belongs to their chapter advance table but rather to a distinction). Okay, the Black Templars might be rather one-sided, admittedly.

The point is to try to add to chapter advances something (even if it's just one skill or talent) which is outside of the core (preferably based on existing fluff) - in the case of the IF something besides Resistances, Sound Constitution or Siegecraft. Trade(Scrimshawer) would have been nice too. It reflects the culture of the chapter and not just their battlefied tactics.

Alex

Are you looking to throw away the existing skills and start anew, or just add to the existing list?

My point is that you might want to give them something outside core... but they don't even have anything in core, as yet. They get basically nothing to do with being disciplined: no Sound Constitution, no Fearless, no Resistance and no Trade [scrimshaw is only whale/seal bones, btw rather than all manner of bones]. Wouldn't it be better to add the obvious and non-contentious first?

Siranui said:

Heh, all my players have their corebook PCs, so I have no need to change anything for some time to come. Should a new PC come in and the player wanted an IF, I'd probably go along largely with the RoB advances because I don't feel like making too extensive houserules. Perhaps +5T and 5WP instead of +10WP. Also I'd probably handle it like I handled the Space Wolves before the errata: I told my 2 SW players that they could choose a melee skill for free (subject to my approval). One of my players selected Counter-Attack. :-)

I generally I have moved away from formalised house ruling and going by ad hoc gut feeling instead. But who knows? Perhaps I'll use ConstantineRoth's IF after all. Although I guess my players would prefer to play with the official rules. I guess they have more authenticity?

Alex

Upon perusal of the RoB book myself, and seeing the Blademaster Talent staring at me out of one of the DIY chapter advance is the chapter creation charts, and for a mere 300... I'm on board with AK now. Hell Lucius was a duelmaster and he was the deadlist swordsman in the Great crusade, demigods excluded, of course.

He wasn't a great swordsman because he was a master duelist.

He was a great duelist because he was a master swordsman.

There's a subtle difference there, but a pretty important one when it comes to understanding how the sword relates to dueling. And what aspect is the deciding one.

ak-73 said:

Well then! As I wrote the Imperial Fists chapter of RItes of Battle, I'll don the pain glove and explain myself. The passage you're quoting is sourced from the Sons of Dorn novel rather than a more direct source (such as a codex or Index Astartes article), and as such is one author's take on the focus of the Imperial Fists. When I wrote the Imperial Fists background I tried to zero in on what really makes them tick, which isn't a literal or simplistic predisposition to attack fortresses or a need to duel with each other all the time, but the existential urge for penance (which is why they entered the Cage and do so repeatedly with the pain glove). Just as that's the tack I went for, the author of Sons of Dorn focused more on the mastery of the blade, which was his call and a good one from the point of view of his novel.

Hopefully, my take is more usable from the perspective on an rpg, but you'd be quite within your rites to add or change it in any way that you feel suits your own game.

Hope that helps!

Andy Hoare

Andy Hoare said:

No it doesn't for I am flabbergasted! Andy Hoare! ...unless you're not but just trolling us. <cue in index finger waving>

Yeah well, the issue I have with it is that I like these small side effects that don't fit with the general theme of something ("penance") but show that a chapter isn't one-sided and a bit more multi-faceted. As I mentioned in one of my other posts, I like about the Blood Angels that they get to be talented at arts. Their tack isn't just the fury of combat but also the perfection in all things, especially arts. They don't have just this one tack.

In that light I have a question for you: how are you guys (or FFG or other guest authors) going to differentiate the many codex-adherent chapters from each other? To me, it's seemingly minor cultural things like the sword-fighting bit that can make a difference, especially when you got 2 otherwise fairly similar Ultra successors. With other chapters you might have to make up such things because they are much more unchartered territory than the Fists but this sword-fighting bit about the IF seems to be ideal to work into the crunch.
So... I could understand any reluctance to errata anything about the Imperial Fists now (even if you agreed with my thoughts which I don't presume) because it would trickle down to other chapters - in fact, giving the IF some blade-related talent would raise the question if the Black Templars shouldn't have it too. Statting 1st Foundings takes extra care.

While we're at it: some of us have also wondered about the Eye of Vengeance talent. This is being commonly seen as a sniping talent, what prompted you to add that? It caused some head-scratching.

Don't want to have this get too long but let me just tell you that for a number of gamers it won't work in the direction of penance. They just see cheap WP for making good librarians, a somewhat useless fearless-inducing ability, cheap Tactics and a number of stuff that helps in static firefights which aren't common in many games. Yes, experienced role-players will see it differently and power-gamers can't be changed anyway... but for the many people in the middle, the crunch can be an important guidance.

Anyway, thanks for explaining that much, it helps to see from which angle this interpretation of the IF has been created.

Alex

PS Made a Crimson Fist Dev in a PbF game based on your rules. He's not so much about penance but about pride and duty. A young tactical genious with too much bravado for his own good. The IF rules work well enough for that.

If you think blademaster is a good idea, go for it. ROB gave dark angels and Space wolves swift attack/lightning attack based on a quick one paragraph blurb of fluff as well.

ak-73 said:

Just WOW!

I want to thank Andy for trying.....

Good Luck.....

I am glad you read one book and have the exact feel for your Imperial Fists, instead of almost 30 years of "Direct" fluff from the TT.

Wait I saw the UltraMArine movie and they dual with swords in it, so....

Andy Hoare said:

Hi Andy;

'Penitent' is an interesting take on the Fist's disciplinarian nature. I've always considered that they're not disciplinarians for the sake of punishment, but for the sake of betterment, as per several schools of European philosophy and Nietzsche's 'will to power' principles where human 'weakness' is ironed out and pain and suffering is embraced as a deliberate strengthening exercise. Whereas a penitent performs his actions through guilt, a disciplinarian performs them for self-betterment. Interesting how perspectives on behaviour vary.

Siranui said:

I guess when the Primarch's Curse begins to take over, a IF becomes more and more guilt-riddled.

Alex

Speaking of which: Are there any mechanics for the Curse anywhere? I've not been able to spot them.

I guess again the curse comes down to interpretation. I can see at levels 1-2 it's still striving for perfection; only turning to more negative aspects of punishment at the third level.

If you guys can find it, look for Ian Watson's Space Marine. It's a forerunner to his Inquisition War books, and HOLY CRAP, those guys aren't penitent, they are MASOCHISTS! They take pride, and pleasure (Not necessarily sexual) from the amount of pain they endure. One of the three main characters, who goes on to appear in his later work, is actually chastised for inviting too much punishment, and the sergeant sees him as too proud, too eager to be in the pain glove. He tells him it's a character flaw to try and break the rules because he likes enduring the pain TOO MUCH. They are the Flaggelant Chapter according to that book.

Just give them that Feast of Blades Deed: +3WS