I'm playing a Crimson Fist in PrimarchX's online campaign and I have to say that FFG has overlooked the relationship between the Imperial Fists and sword-fighting a bit.

www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php

"To the Imperial Fists the Sword is the ultimate and most perfect close combat weapon. No Imperial Fist goes into battle without a blade of some kind on their person, be it power sword, chainsword, or humble combat blade. The Imperial Fists sword doctrines can all be found within Rhetoricus' writings and are standard training for all neophytes and initiates to the Chapter. The Sword Forms employed by the Imperial Fists, much like the Pain Glove itself, are both a form of training and meditation."

I therefore hold that the Imperial Fists at least should be given blademaster as an advance. This talent seems to capture the most their ritual fencing honour duels spirit.

Oh and btw:
- Book of 5 Spheres? Does that sound familar to anyone?
- Rhetoricus? Seriously? That's the name of the author of the most important book of the Imperial Fists? Rhetorics who wrote the Book of 5 Spheres?

o_O

Alex

Howdy!

That all sounds great, and I can quote fluff text from every chapter that tells of their pursuit of martial excellence. That is a role playing fluff that encourages you to spend your rec points on swords and your experience on WS advances.

Exactly. Every Chapter can summon forth some text that says how great they are at fighting. The game allows you to reflect that by buying up WS, if you so desire.

More to the point, the duelling practised by the Fists isn't really about fighting. It's blatantly inspired by Mensur, which is all about character building. Hence that +10WP. In game terms, I don't see why a whole slew of fluff about duelling with tungsten epees demands a Chapter be given Blademaster. Especially when all Chapters practice hand-to-hand combat, and most of them under vastly more realistic and useful conditions.

Siranui said:

So you are saying that they don't take the honour duel thing seriously? Okay...

“The soul of the Imperial Fist can be found in his sword.” - Rhetoricus [Not in his Bolter nor his Armour, btw.]

Well, I prefer a bit more accuracy and quite frankly a but more dimensional mechanics than 'these guys a siege experts and master tacticians.' This blademaster thing would actually highlight another, very important side, of the IF. Also I think lessons learned in those honour duels can very well transferred onto general fighting, like correctly reading the body language of the opponent.

Other chapters don't focus on sword training the way the IF does:
"To the Imperial Fists the Sword is the ultimate and most perfect close combat weapon. No Imperial Fist goes into battle without a blade of some kind on their person, be it power sword, chainsword, or humble combat blade. The Imperial Fists sword doctrines can all be found within Rhetoricus' writings and are standard training for all neophytes and initiates to the Chapter. The Sword Forms employed by the Imperial Fists, much like the Pain Glove itself, are both a form of training and meditation."

Lastly the argument that other chapters also practice h2h does not count. That argument can be used to invalidate any chapter-specific rule. The Space Wolves practice scouting and silent movement too, why should the Ravenguard be given special rules? The Dark Angels do have eyes and ears too, why should the Wolves have a special Per bonus? But it's not even about that: if it is that important to the IF it deserves to be honoured by at least 1 talent. And quite frankly Blademaster is not over-powered.

Alex

I dunno most times you only GET one attack a round, and rerolling can be a huge deal.

oh oh oh!

i want special rule that will allow my Blood Angel to have Peer/Good Reputation/Best Pal (Necrons) !! its it their codex ffs!!! And also in case of my favourite Blood Angels (codex by mr. Matt W) its writen in codex that their Tactical brethren are one of the best tacticals ever! and their bikers can rival those of white scars and ravenwing!

No seriously...

every marine either train whole day or fight whole day, every one of them is supposed to be martial expert, every chapter have their own style of combat, chapter advances (except from being mostly rubbish) point in what chapter is legendary not merely good. In IF case its siegecraft, masochism, certain ancient greek male warrior behaviour, hate for iron warriors.

But i can agree to put blademaster in IF chapter advance list in place of eye of vengeance.

Fenrisnorth said:

In melee that what generally really matters is the number of attacks and the number of parries/dodges. Most enemies don't care about getting hit once. Master-tier, Nid Warriors, large enough hordes, etc. Even Genestealers are hard to kill with one power sword attack and have an excellent dodge

But I am not married to Blademaster although it was the first thing that came to mind. Wall of Steel would also be legit.

@boruta: do not forget that BAs get for example Talented(Trade(Artisan)). Space Wolves get Carouse and Performer. This is a matter of multi-dimensionality, not of buffing a chapter's combat abilities. I'll stand to my point: if the honour duels are that important to the IFs, it deserves at least one talent dedicated to it. Eye of Vengeance is indeed surprising. I guess it is supposed to further underscore the IF's abilities in sieges?

Alex

It is a level 6 Assault Marine talent, though. I'm not sayin'... just sayin' is all.

Fenrisnorth said:

That could be mitigated by making it 1,200+ xp. That isn't necessarily a hindrance. It is by no means more powerful than the mighty Thunder Charge which Assault Marines can't get but Storm Wardens get for 1,000xp at rank 1.

And come to think I am of a different school of thought than boruta. It's not only about legendary skill although that is big part of it. It's about making a chapter interesting within the limits of the existing fluff. Would the IFs be more multi-dimensional by including this talent or wall of steel? I think so. Would it be inaccurate or inflate something minor to something big? I don't think so.

Not to mention that none of it should apply to my Crimson Fists. I don't think they are sword fighters. I think they prefer the power fist.

Alex

Yeah, I don't think anything special is needed.

The Fists -respect- the Sword. there's no arguing this at all. But this doesn't mean they're any better at it than Close Combat chapters. As they specialize in defense. And they follow the Codex. they do not have more Assault Squads than any other Codex Chapter.

Really, their respect of bladework isn't all that different from the Space Wolves or Dark Angels. Both of whom have ritual combat traditions as well. But that doesn't mean they're more focused on it. In fact, I'd go far enough as to guess all Marine Chapters have similar texts to those and a respect of "The Blade."

It's only groups like the Black Templars or Blood Angels who specialize in it above other combat types though.

You have a point, I was so awed by the chapter advances I got, being so characterful, that I didn't think about power level, Carouse? Tracking? Wrangler? Enhanced senses? Yus please! I gotta kill a hive tyrant, then wrangle me a carnifex. Can you imagine showing up back at the Watch Fortress, "Can I keep him?" with a leash leading out the door, the Carnie's head bent down with sad puppy dog eyes, unable to get in the door?

on the other hand RoB allow such impossible level of power muchkinism of doom gaming style that blademaster isnt anything special any more. (no sarcasm) im not allowing any RoB content in my games except honours & vehicles and few examples of equipment.

But before giving them blademaster talent i would think on something more moderate, mastercrafted combat blade (duelling variant) as chapter traping, cost 6 req points so it should be free for every IF character (with +10WS and +2dam) or blademaster talent variation cut to duelling only ?

also its strange but in TT every IF army i fight is dominated by Lysander style thunder Hammers.

Howdy!

If you want to be a dualist use your deed and buy counterattack and +3 WS.

The IF are great as is and they have a great grasp of the fluff from the books. Yes, the boards have pointed out that the Blood Angels and Storm Wardens got some extra love but that does not mean we need to break all the chapters to match.

boruta666 said:

Howdy!

Wow really. So, no chapters except the starting ones, no chaplains, no kill marines, no champions, no deeds, no merits, no keepers, everyone gets mark 7 armor with the same 10 histories, no episolaries, and everyone has the same 5 characters to chose from.....wow.

PS ditto on the TT IF armies, TH/SS, where are all these swords he was talking about.

major shultz said:

We have created (i and my players) around 18 new chapters, we also have created complete chaplain speciality, we use similar merit/flaw system as in old WoD mixed with some gurps traits, kill marine and champion isn't needed as we use Veteran speciality in place of assault/tactical/devastator, we have all marks of armour from mk4 to mk8 made by ourselves, also we don't roll for history i demand from my players pre-made character past before they start playing that char, as for specialities we only use veteran, techmarine, apothecary, chaplain, librarian (every single one redone to some degree) with sergeant, armoury pilot/driver, scout master as elite advances....

Okay, first of all you guys get hung upon the blademaster talent which is beside the point as it's only one possible talent to model the Imperial Fists special relationship to fencing and sword fighting.

Secondly, if there's similar passages of lore about all the other chapters, I'd like to see them. Let me point out to you though that this Rhetoricus fellow was the second most influential guy after Rogal Dorn for the Imperial Fists.

"As they specialize in defense. And they follow the Codex."

Well, that is the exact 1-dimensional stuff that I'd like to break here. Come to think of it, don't they have Talented(Trade(Scrimshawer)) either?

Also none of you have figured in here the perfectionism of the Imperial Fists. And don't say that other chapters are perfectionist either - the Imperial Fists and their successors go way beyond that in their zeal.

And another thought: the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Ultramarines - they all have their own dedicated codex. As such they are more detailed than the IF already. If I'd write a Codex:IF, I'd try to honour their relationship with the sword with a special rule too. This special relationship with the blade is only not as pronounced because the IF haven't received as much detail work.

Alex

Fists practice their honour duels with tungsten (I have no idea why...) epees, in a ritualistic manner. If anything that's an argument AGAINST giving them CC bonuses. All of those hours of practice are completely wasted on the field of battle where they use real blades, don't try to stab each other in the face, and are allowed to use their feet.

Every Chapter trains every day with weapons. I'm not seeing the Fists as particularly melee focused over and above anyone else.

Siranui said:

1. You've been repeating what has been said before though.

2. That argument is incomplete: "To the Imperial Fists the Sword is the ultimate and most perfect close combat weapon. No Imperial Fist goes into battle without a blade of some kind on their person, be it power sword, chainsword, or humble combat blade. The Imperial Fists sword doctrines can all be found within Rhetoricus' writings and are standard training for all neophytes and initiates to the Chapter. The Sword Forms employed by the Imperial Fists, much like the Pain Glove itself, are both a form of training and meditation."

3. Allow me point out that my choice of the talent Blademaster is based on the fact that it restricts its bonuses to blades only. If Wall of Steel or Furious Assault were restricted to bladed weapons, I'd probably had suggested those.

Alex

It's hardly news that every IF carries a blade. I think that combat knife is standard issue for everyone, after all. Why does that mean that the Fists are better with swords than everyone else? If they were that great at it, wouldn't the army be more melee orientated? Why practice skills so heavily that aren't a primary focus?

Every Chapter's fluff is self-promoting. You might as well ask 'why don't spacewolves/ultramarines/blood angels/every other published chapter get XXXX?' as we can all find a whole slew of material to support that pretty much any chapter 'deserves' pretty much anything that we think they do. If you want to just add the talent for your home-brew variations: Go for it. But there's little point in asking a wider audience, because it's massively open to personal interpretation and bias.

ak-73 said:

Here's my problem with that fluff quaote. The fact that it describes every chapter ever. All marines go into battle equiped with some kind of blade. The combat knife is standard equipment, as are chainswords for assault marines/seargents, and power swords for officers/vets. There is literally nothing about that statement that you could not apply to every other chapter in the Imperium, making it essentially meaningless.

Also, while swords may be in the background, it's those big red powerfists that people associate with the table top. While I appreciate people would like some differentiation, I can't help but feel that a certain amount of similarity is inevitable. They're all super humans with the same super upgrades. They all have the same standard eqiupment. They all train really hard 23 hours a day. At some point you have to accept that if you want to be different the way to do it is through fluff and rolepay, rather than more and more special rules.

I am glad you have created all of the material that you wont allow from ROB.

That way you dont have to buy the book. I had to buy the book to get that material.

BTW yes we had made some stuff up prior to the ROB coming out as well.

boruta666 said:

related to previous post.

Siranui said:

Because it is important to them and when something is important to them, they develop it to high performance. And again the argument that other chapter practice it to does not convince me: The Blood Angels practice hard with boltguns too - so why do only the Dark Angels get +5 BS? In the tabletop the Dark Angels don't have a higher BS than the Blod Angels. See that is where your argument is faulty: it fails to acknowledge that the RPG allows for finer grades of disinction.

Facts:
1. The Imperial Fists stress the importance of sword fighting.
2. When they consider something important they tend to be good at it.
(Interpretation: It is not unjustified to give the IF a close combat (swords only) talent to model this.)

3. They have no special rules in the tabletop.
4. They have never been worked out in the TT as much as the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Ultramarines.
(Interpretation: Because they have never worked out in detail and because the TT does not allow for finer grades of distinction, the sword fighting has never been accurately modeled in 40K. This then leads folks here to oppose the suggestion.)

Siranui said:

Yeah and there we do have the problem: the army isn't more melee orientated. How melee orientated does an army have to be in order to receive one (count it) close combat talent in their chapter advances?

Siranui said:

Okay, make a compelling case that the Blood Angels should get a shooting talent then based on canon. I'd like to see what you are going to build your case on for that.

@Defenstrator: Does this also go for the whole quote or only the part you picked out? And if you say that mechanics don't need to be used to model differences between chapters, would you suggest that DW should have done without? In the end it's a game , it's not just about role-playing but also about playing a game .

Alex

I think you guys need to not be jumping down AK's throat on this one. Most of us have been around for a while, and have seen/read most of the fluff, am I right? I've read the Space wolves books, the Blood angels, the Grey knights, even Space marine and Inquisitor, ahh those were the good old squat filled days.... but I digress. Even the Space wolves and the Blood angels don't practice swordfighting as religiously as the IF seem to. If think they do deserve some distinction, though I'd say give them an exceptional quality sword as standard gear, to represent the importance the chapter stresses on having a good blade by your side.

Fenrisnorth said:

I think it goes to an underlying principle - on what basis to stat chapter advances on? Really only the legendary stuff? Or shouldn't we seek to find distinction - especially within all the Codex-adherent chapters. (It's easy to make Space Wolves be distinct after all.) The IFs are probably not the only codex-adherent siege-specialists out there. That's why in general advocate picking up on those stuff. It doesn't need to be blademaster, I think it should be just something relating to swords.

As for your suggestion with the exceptional quality sword, it's not the choice I would have made but as in the case of the SW's Counter-attack and Flesh Render, something I could live with.

Alex