Lynata said:
Sorry, I just had to.
Except that the other fellow would be lucky to get offered a draw if it was a Space Marine. And if it was a Space Marine that had been dislimbed he wouldn't be offered a draw either. Ha!
Alex
Space Marine Power Level
colony said:
Before I begin I have to state, I'm SERIOUSLY not looking for an argument, just sense. Most people here must remember the days when Space Marines were nothing special. Yes, better than humans (for example IG) but on a par with Aspect Warriors and no match for a 'stealer in close combat. It might just be me but they are way out of whack. Yes, Deathwatch are all champion level characters or above but even a 'normal' Chapter Master will have trouble taking on more than a squad of 'stealers or a Farseer and they should. It just seems like the system has bought into the 'fluff' surrounding SM's. They are not anywhere near indestructible. A few Orks with bolter's can do the job if the players stupid enough to get caught in the open. After a few playtest firefights this is a way from being consistent with the tabletop. Please understand I'm just trying to get some input on the matter and not trolling.
why do you compare a tabeltop that needs to balance elements of diffent armies and hase a very limited rule-set with a RPG?
If Space Marines would be as tough in the TT as they are in the Fluff you would have 7 Marines on the Table on a 2000 Points game and they would pretty sure still rule the table.
colony said:
Not pk'ing. Just comparing power levels to some of the other published stuff. Personally I'd start players at pre-scout level intro then them into the party a scout level before they get anywhere near even a whisper of Deathwatch. I just think they've got the power levels a bit off.
They're only 'off' in that starting DW marines certainly AREN'T veteran marines.
Tabletop makes changes for the sake of the game. If a 5-man squad of marines could cheerfully kill 300 heretics,then HW wouldn't sell many minis, and it wouldn't make for a good game. But pick up any of the fiction, or read any fluff and it's obvious that marines are supposed to be FAR more powerful than portrayed in TT. It just makes sense. Otherwise, why are mankind's finest warriors, biogenetically enhanced and equipped with the finest armaments available, only equivalent to about two or three normal Guard?
The equation is simple. TT != Fluff
And Deathwatch is much more fluff than it is TT. As a GM I have NO concerns about the Marines being too powerful.
Why does it really matter what power level the game is pitched at so long as it is fun.
I think PCs in Deathwatch are pretty awesome and as GM the best thing you can do is just roll with it and try to challenge them as best you can!
I know I'd find the RPG a lot less enjoyable if the power ratio was more like the TT game than it was the fluff.
Maybe Space Marines are a bit too cinematic in their power, but frankly when I want to play a member of the Adeptus Astartes, I want to play a Big **** Hero! I want me and my Kill-Team to board starships and be able to take them over despite there being tens of thousands of crew (they can't all abandon stations to come kill us, of course).
I've been in a game where we actually did that before too. It was only a light cruiser, and an in system monitor, but it was still fun knowing that my Marine and his 5 squad-mates (one an attached Inquisitor) were able to pretty much conquer it. Because really, despite them having a much vaster number to throw against us, a starship crew can't bring its numbers to bear in the relatively confining hallways of the ship. Lot of close range firefights and melee which completely favour the Marines, especially when our boarding torpedo voided the immediately nearby compartments. My Black Templar Techmarine was very much in his element.
DW probably is just as far away from the fluff (Codices, not novels, obviously) as the TT is - just in the opposite direction. I agree that this is naturally more fun than playing by the tabletop rules, though. I wouldn't turn the characters into the equivalent of Space Marine Legends and let them beat a Hive Tyrant to pulp without backup, but it's still better than being killed by a dozen Guardsmen. The same sentiment carries over into DH and RT, though I think those games are a little more realistic.
Poppycock I say. I just don't know what do you expect from Deathwatch? If it bothers you that much, as some previous posters have stated, there are other two great games which do not include that many unnatural characteristics and are more 'realistic'. And people really need to settle down with this tabletop/novel/fluff/history matter. It just don't make any sense. Space Marines are genetically enhanced humans whose abilities surpass those of any common man. They are the Emperors most holy creation in battle against the most powerful mutants, aliens, heretics and daemons. Deathwatch provided that epic feel for me. I quite enjoy that and do not find that system or it's rules are in any way terrible or bad. Sure, there are some things that could be rectified, but other than that it just provides what it meant to in the first place - how to play space marine and have a god **** fun while at it.
I was actually considering doing a post on the same thing. So I applaud you sir. Or Ma'am. Whichever you might be inclined to be.
DW is a game of epic proportions, made to make you feel like you're a space marine, and playing it, it makes me feel like one. The scale has to be epic because space marines are epic.
I think Space Marines could stand to be a little more superheroic.
Sure, they are better than Dark Heresy mooks, but that isn't saying very much.
Marines need to be orders of magnitude more badass than normal humans if they are to have a chance of living up to their reputation.
AluminiumWolf said:
I think Space Marines could stand to be a little more superheroic.
Sure, they are better than Dark Heresy mooks, but that isn't saying very much.
Marines need to be orders of magnitude more badass than normal humans if they are to have a chance of living up to their reputation.
MORE... So you guys see a horde of magnitude 20 of hive tyrants... Oh you have a MC heavy bolter I forgot!
crisaron said:
AluminiumWolf said:
I think Space Marines could stand to be a little more superheroic.
Sure, they are better than Dark Heresy mooks, but that isn't saying very much.
Marines need to be orders of magnitude more badass than normal humans if they are to have a chance of living up to their reputation.
MORE... So you guys see a horde of magnitude 20 of hive tyrants... Oh you have a MC heavy bolter I forgot!
Aluminum Wolf tends to lean to the Over the Top side of the equation
. To each their own, I just have trouble creating compelling stories that way.
The fluff works so much better if Marines are full on superheros. And it isn't as if there is any shortage of superhero narratives.
As far as superpeople go, Deathwatch Space Marines are decidedly on the low end.
--
The Emperor Protects has the PCs doing a divested hunt, which presumably should be possible to complete by unaugmented natives.
Nothing possibly achievable by a normal human should even be a challenge to a Space Marine.
--
In short, we should be thinking of Deathwatch PCs not as good Dark Heresy mooks, but as particularly naff superheros.
AluminiumWolf said:
The fluff works so much better if Marines are full on superheros. And it isn't as if there is any shortage of superhero narratives.
As far as superpeople go, Deathwatch Space Marines are decidedly on the low end.
The Emperor Protects has the PCs doing a divested hunt, which presumably should be possible to complete by unaugmented natives.
Nothing possibly achievable by a normal human should even be a challenge to a Space Marine.
In short, we should be thinking of Deathwatch PCs not as good Dark Heresy mooks, but as particularly naff superheros.
Not true on many accounts. The DW members know nothing of the planet, the terrain, the creatures or the style of hunting they are suppose to go on. The hunt isnt hard because of their enhanced physical nature, but doesnt mean it can tbe a challenge just because normal humans can do it.
I dont even know what the word NAFF means. So Ill pass on that one.
They are not super heroes, they are enhanced warriors. They are great at combat and durable and have good senses. But I would never put them on the calibre as superheroes. They are genetically enhanced warrior commandos. But they can and do get bested by normals. Sure it may take 3-5 or so lucky talented IG guardsmen to fell a single marine, but it can happen.
Peacekeeper_b said:
Not true on many accounts. The DW members know nothing of the planet, the terrain, the creatures or the style of hunting they are suppose to go on. The hunt isnt hard because of their enhanced physical nature, but doesnt mean it can tbe a challenge just because normal humans can do it.
I dont even know what the word NAFF means. So Ill pass on that one.
I'm fairly certain naff means lousy, or bad. Meaning substandard superheroes
I agree with Peacekeeper here, even if I normally disagree with him
SPOILER!
As for TEP, they talk about how amazing the planet is and how it makes thing super awesome, I always saw that as the natives being better than human due to whatever it is that's particularly fertile about the planet. That plus what Peacekeeper says- the Marines are disadvantaged because they don't know the terrain or their adversaires this time.
/SPOILER!
It's also been my experience that starting DW characters kick the crap out of most DH characters without much trouble. Certain ascended classes an give them a run for their money, but unless they're participating in a trivia contest the marines will typically beat other folks. In addition, put any DH 'mook' against the villians in DW and they'll get equally spanked. If the majority of folks thought that they should be more powerful, I think you'd see a significantly different slant on the types of threads that were created here.
You have to be a badass if you go to some random planet and agree to go hunt dinsaurs naked without any fuss.
nolsutt said:
You have to be a badass if you go to some random planet and agree to go hunt dinsaurs naked without any fuss.
Charmander said:
If the majority of folks thought that they should be more powerful, I think you'd see a significantly different slant on the types of threads that were created here.
I think you will find that most of the complaints about Marines being Too Uber come from people who don't want to play Marines, and whose opinions are therefore rather secondary.
The fluff makes a lot more sense if Marines are superheros. And judged by that standard, the ones in deathwatch come up short.
Peacekeeper_b said:
They are not super heroes, they are enhanced warriors. They are great at combat and durable and have good senses. But I would never put them on the calibre as superheroes. They are genetically enhanced warrior commandos. But they can and do get bested by normals. Sure it may take 3-5 or so lucky talented IG guardsmen to fell a single marine, but it can happen.
Don't tell that to these guys:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_d70xDZKXLxc/TDZ2RDGDohI/AAAAAAAAAII/BuDKECv1lB8/s1600/100_0482.JPG
...you'll make them cry...
on multiple levels even... ;-p
OMG BEST THING EVER!
AluminiumWolf said:
The fluff makes a lot more sense if Marines are superheros.
everyone
AluminiumWolf said:
I think you will find that most of the complaints about Marines being Too Uber come from people who don't want to play Marines, and whose opinions are therefore rather secondary.
The fluff makes a lot more sense if Marines are superheros. And judged by that standard, the ones in deathwatch come up short.
To an extent there are some naysayers that don't want to play marines on here, but I think there are plenty of us on the boards that enjoy playing marines, we just find some of the rules a bit over the top. I also think a lot of the too uber complaints don't come from folks that don't actually want to play marines, but from people who are in a bit of shock after coming out of a 'normal' game into an 'epic level' game.
I personally find the game, for the most part, on target with reasonability in encounters and plenty of chances to blow the crap out of your enemies. You get to be heroic but you're not invulnerable. You're superior, combat wise, to the other systems. The enemies in DW could beat the snot out of DH/RT characters, especially if outfitted with hordes. It's not exactly balanced with the other games, and it's a little over the top, but to me it fits the fluff as it were.
Look at all the stories of invulnerable characters, from Superman to Neo. In each storyline the writers have to write in some absurd reason why the lead character is in danger. It becomes dull and flat when the protagonist can't be stopped. Making marines more uber, to me, starts to tread in this realm of storyline.
And in 40k, if the marines were bigger and badder than DW presents, why would the universe still be a dangerous place? Seriously, you'd send one company, 100 marines, and you'd take the whole of the Reach. The guard and navy can pack up and head home, or simply be a occupaction force on the reclaimed territories? Eye of Terror? That's for chumps, send in two Chapter's and they'll clean the place up right.
But your mileage may vary- we haven't, don't, and probably won't in the future, agree on this point. But on the bright side, I mostly like the game as it is, and for you it shouldn't be too hard to make them more uber
P.S. Batman marines are pretty sweet.
But are some of you being realistic when you say that everyone gets to be a superhero, but the Marines take it to an extreme that makes them overpowered?
Cause a common problem I have with people when talking about Dark Heresy (since that's a factor here) is that they expect their character to be like someone as tough as Harlon Nayl or Godwyn Fischig, who are the inner circle of their Inquisitor's operation, the people that the man (or woman) himself takes with him in to a fight. Obviosuly they get very dissapointed when they have to start all the way from the bottom at Rank 1 and work their way up to being that.
For myself, I find the Marines to be right about where they should be, in all aspects. They don't need more power, and they certainly don't need less.