As any thread involving Dreads points out that I've seen, the fact that the "No Librarian rule" has been hotly contested. Pointed to are the fact that there are librarians in other chapters, and that the rules for allowed advances include psy-rating, psy-science, and other psyker talents. I'd say the misprint aguement could go in both directions. It could have been a misprint to put in "No Librarian Dreads allowed", but it could have also been a misprint or another intention to put in the psyker talents into the advances table as well.

Now, Dreadnoughts are rare. Deathwatch Dreads I would say are just as rare, so the likeliness of a Librarian buying half the farm to be entombed is unlikely. But surely any battle brother of decent renown should have the ability to be interred in a Dreadnought if his wish is to fight on?

Reading over the Dread rules, I can't hlep but feel that a Dread, combined with psychic powers, becomes an overpowered, unstoppable killing machine. The mix of psychic powers and the weaponry and the fact it's now a vehicle make it beyond reproach OR that the use of the Dread Weapons makes Psychic powers obsolete in the character.

So here's my challenge to everyone willing to participate. My challenge is to make a balanced Libby-Dread that a PC can use. A space marine is a god of war in of itself. A Dread is obviously more of a god of war killing machine, but I contend that a Libby Dread shouldn't be even more powerful than that.

This thread isn't about back and forth bickering about missprints or fluff. It's about getting down to brass tacs and making it work. Way I see it is the best way to do that is to make it, and then let everyone have a look to see if it's viable. If not, then we can all work to try to make it viable (The Blood Angel Furiso Librairan doens't have ranged weaponry. Perhaps that makes it viable then). And failing that, then we can all start our bickering about misprints.

So, anyone who wants to throw in a profile of a Libby-Dread without putting EVERYTHING in terms of detail, lets toss it into the ring.

Things to consider:

1. An Evaluation of the mechanics of the rules of psychic powers, including things such as force weapons, using psychic powers essentially while still or half dead, and how they interact with machinery

2. A comparasion of the physical weapons of a Dread verses the psychic weapons of a Librarian, to see if one makes the other non-viable, or if it makes them more powerful than they should be and becomes a power games dream

3. How almost dying might affect a psyker, and their powers, including how rules like perils of the warp effect your dread.

So lets get to it.

Howdy!

Librarian Dreads are against the fluff because the potential warp gate that is a powerful psycher can not relax to hibernate. The fluff behind the Grey Knight dreads is they do not sleep.

major shultz said:

And how about those Blood Angels Librarian Dreadnoughts?

Personally I'd only allow one type of human Psionic Dread. Grey Knights. Even then I'd only allow Grey Knights as pc's.. I'd consider most Eldar and Tzeetch Dreads to be Psionic for defensive purposes as only a champion level soul could pilot the thing effectively. Even then i'd rule that controlling it required the concentration of using a psionic power so the couldn't bring it to bear on casting in the same round.

Maybe Blood Angles probably consider that as all their Dread's could fall and probably will at some point fall to the Black Rage or Red thirst.
The Dangers of putting a Strong willed experienced battle psyker into a Dread seem a bit overwrought.

HappyDaze said:

The Furioso Dreads in which the Libbys are bedded are as old as the Imperium. They fought in the Great Crusade and are some of the greatest Relics of the Blood Angels. Perhaps they include technology which "ordinary" Dreads don´t feature. And even the Angels only have 5 such Dread in their ranks and that though the Angels are one of the most Psykers (blood ravens ar non-canon). So it seems a rare event that a psyker is jugged worthy to be become a Dread.

Actually, Blood Ravens are cannon as a Games workshop product. However, it has been confirmed that they are not related to the Blood Angels, and they are still looking to find what primarch they hail from.

Something to note about Table 2-6; this is not a list of Advances that are open to a Dreadnought for purchase, but a list of what advances they can still use, and which ones suffer penalties.

Dreadnoughts and Advancements ; page 112 states the following:

• In addition to the Dreadnought specific advances... may benefit from the skills and talents on table 2-6.
• If a Dreadnought attempts to use a skill or talent not listed on table 2-6 they automatically fail .
• May purchase advances from the General Space Marine advances (pages 60-63 of Deathwatch ).
• Excluding Strength , Toughness , and Agility the Dreadnought may still purchase characteristic advances.

As to no Librarians, yes, it seems that the Deathwatch will not inter a Librarian in a Dreadnought Sarcophagus and use them. They might inter one and return them to their home chapter, however. The Deathwatch is not the Grey Knights or any other chapter which utilizes Libby-Dreads.

As to the Grey Knight fluff stating their Libby-Dreads don't sleep... That's just seems kind of idiotic. Dreads don't "sleep" in any traditional sense from my understanding, but are put in stasis vaults and roused when needed.

Anyway, just my thoughts and points on the subject.

Actually, Blood Ravens are cannon as a Games workshop product. However, it has been confirmed that they are not related to the Blood Angels, and they are still looking to find what primarch they hail from.

They're remnants of the Thousand Sons who weren't on Prospero when the Space Wolves drove Magnus and his sons into the Warp. At least, that seems the general consensus... And they are indeed a cannon Chapter, as they've not only been in official works; books and such, but appear on the SM Chapter posters as well.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Stasis is a loaded term, especially in a world with devices that slow or stop the flow of time. It is my understanding they enter a sort of coma, and are awakened by the tech-priests and apothecaries. And remember, the Deathwatch is assuredly NOT a chapter, they are not even a Chamber Militant of the Ordos Xenos, they are a collection of marines from many different chapters that operate outside of Chapter or Inquisition, so they don't have many of the rituals or command structures of either.

Fenrisnorth said:

The Deathwatch IS most certainly a Chapter. They are; however, NOT a Codex Chapter. They exist and function through oaths and promises just like so many other institutions within the Imperium. And, yes, they are one of the three semi- or mostly autonomous organizations which serve the Inquisition as Chambers Militant. Just because they cannot typically be ordered, but assistance has to be requested doesn't change that overly much. The Grey Knights and the Sororitas operate much the same. Hell, even the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are seconded into service from standing regiments.

The Inquisition, like the Ministorum, does not actually have a standing army, per se. They do have a whole of of pull and influence to get one when they need it, though.

As to Dreads and being "asleep" or in "stasis", I merely mentioned that from the materials I've read they seem to be typically stored using actual stasis technology; possibly built into the sarcophagus directly in some older cases.

But this debate over the semantics of the use of the word "stasis" does nothing to invalidate my other points about what seems to have been a misread on many persons part as to what Table 2-6 actually was intended to be in Rites of Battle .

-=Brother Praetus=-

I disagree with you, though you are entitled to your opinion. THe deathwatch has no geneseed, no Primarch, no Companies, they do not recruit yong boys to their ranks and turn them to space marines, they have no Chapter Master, they are of No Founding. They are not "1000" marines, a part of a Legion, or anything of the sort that defines a chapter except for they are a group of space marines.

They are NOT under the orders of the Inquisition. The inducted guardsmen are told "You, yes you there, with the lasgun, you are now a soldier of the Inquisition!" They are not a part of it, not are they any more beholden to it than any other Chapter is to the High Lords of Terra. They are merely allies. I am not familiar enough with the Adeptus Sororitas to comment on their relation to the Inquisition. The Deawatch, however is free to deny the Inquisition aid in a way the Imperial Guard cannot.

As much as I do like a good fluff battle, this thread has gone off topic

Frostfire said:

We've covered alot of interesting ground, but we're no closer to this thing's origonal goal. Which is the Libby Dread. Being on the side of "Against", I haven't tried to make a build, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should.

But an excellent pint has been brought up. After interred, a Dread can no longer purchase Librarian powers. So, a note to be made to builders is that AFTER a Dread is made, it needs to be as powerful as it's going to be. No further upgrades to it are available

Immortal said:

I like this.

I'm personally happy with the idea that Librarians just aren't interred in Dreads because of rules/regulations/unknown fluff issues/the all go ED209. With the Blood Angels being an exception case because of some mysterious fluff reason, or because they choose to over-look those rules. And I'm happy for DW to follow that tradition of not interring psykers. If it's for game-balance reasons: fine. I'm happy for the only psyker dreads to be traitor marine ones or BAs.

For what it's worth, I think it makes far more sense to inter a Librarian in a Dreadnought than virtually any other type of marine.

Librarians are recruited for their psychic abilities. As both BA Dreadnoughts and Ravenor have shown, crippling the body has no effect upon psychic ability. In fact, Ravenor cites his entombment in a portable life support system as the act that freed his mind to greater psychic potential.

If a marine "dies" and is entombed in a dreadnought, you lose a marine and get a dreadnought. If a librarian "dies" and is entombed in a dreadnought, you get a dreadnought...and a librarian. You lose nothing.

GW should really expand the miniatures range to include a non-BA librarian dreadnought rather than spend time justifying why the BAs are the only ones who have them. It makes much much more sense.

Next time they re-do the Space Marine codex, almost gaurantee that regular chapters will pick up Librarian and (maybe) Chaplain dreads. Why? Because there's no reason NOT to inter them as well.

Fenrisnorth said:

I'm pretty sure that the oaths that the marines swear when joining with DW are an agreement to work hand in hand with the Inquisition. I can't recall in all the fluff I have read an instance in which the DW ever turned down a call for aid from the Inquisition. In fact one of the best series that you can clearly see a DW team working for an Inquisitor is in Scourge the Heretic and Innocence Proves Nothing. (both good books IMO)