Which card helps the Baratheon Rush deck more, The Laughing Storm or Heir to the Iron Throne?

The agenda for sure. The ability to make extra power challenges and if had characters that could participate in both with Renown would help grab alot of power very quickly. Hell I won a melee in two turns with a Baratheon deck once.

No question the agenda. TLS might help them if they get stalled into the mid game but I would question if it would be worth it to play him during the early game.

Agenda + Kings of the Storm King Robert + Edric Storm + An Empty Throne = Five power challenges in one round. With no claim, if you could get 3 characters with renown and some sort of standing out on turn one, you have it. They don't even have to be opposed. Knight of Flowers and Arena Knight alone could get you 10 power. If you manage to get some unopposed and then take dominance...

It's a perfect storm situation, but it's out there.

skeletonator said:

Edit: Nevermind it isn't giving you a max number of challenges like Blood Crazed Screamer so I'd guess there is no limit.

I would still say TLS (IMHO of course). The power rush wasn't as much of an issue as the keeping it going turn after turn if you got stopped early - at least in my decks and when I played against them.

If I remember right, I beat power rush in the Top 4 in '09 and '08 (and top 8 last year maybe?) mainly due to surviving the first two rounds and then their deck petering out. ~Unluckily there was no Bara power rush in the top 4 this year and I got my butt handed to me...

rings said:

I'm curious though, in your opinion how does TLS keep the power rush deck from petering out?

Darksbane said:

As of now (with the cards spoiled), they have a 4/6/1 plot that gives them 3 cards when he is out, rush decks love to run 3X of characters so it is pretty easy to hit Val/TLS for three cards/turn. Couple that with good weenies (including one that allows another power challenge), self-standing/don't kneel characters with renown, and just plain renown...they can recover much easier from the control effects of Intrigue, Valar/Wildfire, heavy claim, etc. Like I said, IMHO - I always ran Bara out of characters/cards when I played vs. them, and that will be a LOT harder now with the right build.

But Rings, in a rush deck each non renown character counts against it. I personally cannot find a slot for TLS in my rush deck. In my experience I have to win by turn 3, so usually I lose an avg of 4 cards to intrigue challenges, with redundancy and val it becomes moot.

bloodycelt said:

Maybe that's cause you don't find room for non renown characters?

bloodycelt said:

Well, I think every deck should have a contigency plan. True, if all you are trying to do is win by turn 3 or go home, I would agree with you. ~I just thought we were talking about GOOD Bara rush builds...

I realize Rings doesn't like to acknowledge Melee, but the Heir agenda is Ridiculous on Bara in Melee. After playin quite a few melee games both with and against Baratheon/Heir, I fully expect half of GenCon Melee participants to be running this deck.

kpmccoy21 said:

Incidentally, I think Heir will be fully competitive in joust by GenCon. In fact, I think it will easily push Bara up to tier 1, and Bara rush should be one of the top 3-4 decks in the environment.

So yeah, Heir is *definitely* more advantageous for Bara than TLS, which is just an annoying card for its effect than for its power level (again, my personal opinion).

Heir to the Iron Throne - and its not even close. The extra Power Challenge is far more important than holding on to one or two cards on turn two or three.

Both help, but Heir definitely helps a lot more. It's the one single card that has the most potential to bring Bara to tier 1.

It's kind of funny that the Targ box is helping out Bara

~odd thats it not getting called for insta-errata

Lars said:

Give it time though...I'm sure some people will object to decks that can frequently win on round 1.

Lars said:

~if rings doesn't call for instant-errata, neither do I.

There's actually a decent chance Heir might be too good. It looks like of those cards that would be terrible for 95% of deck builds, but absolutely amazing for that last 5%. Agendas are probably the most difficult cards to balance and evaluate without lots of play. It's really going to come down to whether or not the Agenda and the card pool will create consistent 1 to 2 round victories and if that's a bad thing for the game. I'm not convinced that fast victories are bad for the game, but Heir is definitely on my watch-list because of it.

Also, as Twn2dn mentioned, cards tend be seen as more problematic when they interfere with fundamental game mechanics; especially when it's one-sided or alters how others play. Telling other players they "cannot" do something -- but you can -- almost always brings up a bit of an uproar. It's also why nobody like playing against Lanni-kneel. "You get to kneel all of my guys, now none of my stuff works, and you can still attack and defend...no fair!" Look at Cat O' Canals. She's an extremely weak character, but many people dislike how she cannot be affected by their cards. Really anything that modifies how other players get/have to play the game is going to cause some stomach churning. Heir directly modifies how you play the game, not your opponent.

Basically people don't like being told what they can or can't do. Cards like Heir, Siege, etc. don't tell opponents to do anything different; at least not directly they don't.

FATMOUSE said:

Spot on.

People don't get it now (cause ti doesn't seem to affect tehm) but wait until summer when bara is hiitiing double high renown power challenges on Turn one and Two.

Do you really thin Tunr 1 wins are realistic twn2dn? Keep in mind how pricey Bara renown characters are and how many you can realisticall get in play on the flop and first Marshall......

Stag Lord said:

Yeah, I do think turn 1 wins are realistic, as my Bara rush pulled it off once or twice BEFORE Heir to the Iron Throne. Anti-Shadows Robert, ANti-Shadows Knight of Flowers, Arena Knight....all guys with renown and the ability to make multiple power challenges. I've always liked the Epic Battle Events, and add in Edric Storm and the Power Struggle Plot that adds an extra power challenge. And the acceleration Seat of Power provides is phenomenal.

So looking at the concept of the power rush, if this agenda makes the deck type more prevalent what are the countermeasures we expect? Jalabar Xho has been the anti-thesis of renown rush decks, and the same hold true for CS Mel. Are we going to see more of these two cards in decks? Valar is going to get rid of all that power, even if Narrow Escape brings all the characters back. We don't currently have a plot cancel, but that doesn't mean we won't see one in Secrets or the Targ box. I run 3 Whispers from the Hill in my rush deck, what other ways are there currently to protect that power?

I agree that the power rush deck will get an amazing boost from this agenda. But I've also felt for some years now that there should be some card that can nulify an Agenda, even if only once during the game. Mance is a start, but more often is used to blank your own Agenda to win you the game.

Hmm...

The problem with the Heir is... it doesn't add an additional challenge. You still make 3 challenges. It doesn't have any "real" effect until the opponent has power on his house.

I'm not saying it won't be a potent agenda... however I don't think it will add to first turn wins on a champion level. Most of the champion level decks I've seen do not lack in icon distribution. And like Siege of Winterfell, a decent challenge control deck will hose the heir deck. (Oh... all your power icons were removed... oops).

bloodycelt said:

Umm, no. Outside of Mel, the strongest Bara power rush characters lack an INT icon. If I can now build a deck and ignore trying to fill the intrigue hole, it only helps me. Now Robert, Arena Knight and Knight of Flowers can do three challenges instead of two? Trust me, it makes a difference. This card has now been spoiled on the boards for what...three weeks? Just proxy it and play some games with it. You will see it absolutely makes a difference.

Dobbler said:

Good lcuk pulling that off multiple times at a tournament.

That's 13 gold in characters (just the ones you named) off a three gold Plot. You'll need Seats both in setup and 1st Marshall. Its certainly do-able (especially if you lead with Take Them or Fury) - but (as always): you're playing the lottery. Draw into the right hand and you can roll anyone, but i won't call it consistent though - even with Heir in the game.

But I am thinking a slightly delayed rsuh is going to be awfully hard to stop - and I can't wait.

Dobbler said:

I wholly agree here. i'll GLADLY give up the INT challenge for an extra power swipe.