Actually 5 Gold setup + 3 Gold plot = 8 GOld...add in one Seat of Power and one Narrow Seat and you are there for a total of 13 gold worth of characters. And I didn't mention every character/card that helps for a first turn win.

But no, you won't be regularly pulling off the first turn win in a tournament, but the odds have increased greatly. As well, even if you are only getting 8-10 power the first turn, it makes it that much easier to close it out on the second turn.

@Stag: To answer your question about "round 1 wins," I do think it's going to happen frequently. This past weekend, we saw it happen in melee without the agenda. Several players also experimented with the agenda in melee, and a win later than round 2 was *the exception"...whereas a round 1 or round 2 win was the norm unless every other player ganged up on the Bara player. In melee games where there are two or more Bara players, I strongly suspect that one of them will win by round two or sooner, unless someone drops an early-game Core Set Mel.

In joust, I think round-1 wins will be less common, given that there's more control and often no power for Bara players to steal. That said, a round-1 win will be possible (not frequent, but not incredibly rare either), especially if Bara players the Fury plot against Martell/Targ, and the opponent doesn't happen to have the cards in hand to weather the storm. For example, against a Targ dothraki deck, I think the Bara player has a good chance of a round-1 win if they win initiative with the Fury plot AND have Robert + Knight of Flowers + 3rd renown character (and a little standing) on round 1. Again, not going to happen most games, but it isn't as rare as a "perfect storm" situation either.

All this aside, I really don't mind round-1 and round-2 wins in joust...Bara rush *should* come out fast and fizzle if it doesn't make it. In part, that's why I dislike giving Bara too much draw or hand protection. The annoying thing to me is that such speed in melee essentially means most competitive players will need to play Bara in melee to have a shot at winning. And the more Bara players there are, the fewer control mechanics will be around to keep the remaining Bara players in check.

I wholly expect this year's GenCon melee finals table to be comprised exclusively of Bara...or perhaps with a splash of Stark Seige.

I agree with you both - in joust its doable, but not something the meta needs to lose sleep over. and i agree further - the potential was already there - heir makes it easier bacause you now play a 5 gold plot to lead (rather than the three0. and just for teh record Dobbs - i was calculating the five gold flop for my analysis. Five gold + three gold Plot + two seats + Narrow Sea + +1 or reduccer = puts you aorun 17 gold in 1st Marshall. BUT - you need those two Seats. Anyway - all three of us are pretty much on the same page here.

Meleee is going to be a problem - but it kind of is already.

If it becomes a problem just play Fortified Position on turn 1.

Also several houses have answers to this if you can get them out early:

Milk of the Poppy, Fishing Net, Motley, 8 gold greyjoy army, 8 gold baratheon army, elarria sand (a little), core mel, orphan, magister illyrio, dornish chariot, scorched earth (sort of lol), war scorpion, frozen sea, desolate passage, the viper's rage, burning in the sands, shore leave, wars are won with quills, frozen moat, true power, and jhablar xho.

You only scratched the surface, blooducelt - but we aren't really tlaking about whther or not the opponent can stop the turn 1 win (they have to draw into teh rigt cards as well0 but whether or not it is economically and statistically feasible for consistent Turn 1 wins.

Which i doubt.

bloodycelt said:

I think joust is less of an issue, since (as I mentioned) I don't see a major problem to a Bara rush deck that can win on round 2...though no doubt some will. On Fortified Position, that really is only a stall plot...it isn't like Valar or something that permanently removes the threat. If I'm a Bara player and my opponent plays FP round 1, that's one less "threatening" plot that I have to deal with early game. I won't claim as much power, but my bannermen and standing effects will still go into play, and I can throw out a few extra characters for an easier round 2 win. (In other words, I don't think Fortified Position is a realistic, reliable "solution" to a round-1 Bara win. There are other control-oriented cards that might be though...Game of Cyvasse, kneel, and even merely putting a card in shadows to stop Knight of Flowers.)

And, you know, Fear of Winter - which i hear sees a lot of Turn 1 use.

Stag Lord said:

~Forgotten Plans first turn FTW

FATMOUSE said:

LOL Yeah: that really helped, didn't it?