Episode 9 of 2 Champs and a Chump is up !

So what do you think...is there one or two cards that could vault Targ and Greyjoy out of the bottom two spots in Joust?

Should Narrow Escape be banned, errata'd or left alone?

Melee...do you play it? And is Greyjoy really the second best house for Melee?

w/out listening I'll add some opinions

targ is not in the bottom 2....didn't we prove this with ktom and dan a few times? the build might not be for everyone, but its there. dothraki can be fairly good with a little more (maybe the box?!!?) andthey have a lot of interesting things coming in the box (sadly greyjoy does not).

didn't they already erratta narrow escape? i think its fine as is.

play melee a bit. i'd say greyjoy is 1A with bara and martell being 2. though with brotherhood any house could be just as strong in melee.

Lars said:

If you don't think Targ is in the bottom two, you have to put someone else there.

I'd say at this moment, Bara is lower than Targ in the Joust ranking. 2 mos from now they won't be, but right now I'd take Targ burn over any Bara rush as far as placement in a large event(Stahleck, GenCon, etc) Not sold Bara control or combo would place higher than Targ Burn at a large event either.

kpmccoy21 said:

Ahh yes, but you are choosing one specific type of Targ deck (burn), but Bara has multiple tourney level decks...Holy Hand Destruction, Power rush, Knights, shadows control....and based on the results I saw at Days of Ice and Fire (only one person played Targ while a TON of people played Bara), I'd say the general population consensus is currently putting Bara above Targ.

I think most players find it easier to play Bara than Targ. Targ has alot of moving parts that you have to be aware as well as what your opponent is doing. All the Bara builds you mentioned play much more straightforward than Targ Burn. Heavy control always places high at major tournaments.

kpmccoy21 said:

As someone who regularly plays Targ burn, I agree it is a very strong build, but when assessing the overall House Rankings, issues like ease vs difficulty of building and playing a deck have to be considered, as well # and variety of different competitive deck types, popularity, and how often people are playing each house at major tournaments.

Dobbler said:

I don't favor further erratta to Narrow, but I am in favor of a bit more in the way of control cards.

Narrow Escape was originally in response to an environment with Put to the Sword, Tears, Fire from the Sky (I would love a reprint BTW), burn-a-lisiousness, and a host of other character control cards. Nowadays, there are some decent control cards in various houses (Stark, some good Lanni and Martell, Targ is starting to print some), but nothing as easy as in the CCG.

Now it seems like it is anti-Valar (or even anti-Wildfire I have seen) more than anything, and that is too bad.

ktom said:

QFT - I agree. The fact that Targ might have a hard-to-play, combo-rific, unique deck doesn't mean they will be played/place in a really strong players hands...that doesn't mean that it is top 3-4. I think any house is playable in the right hands, but you have to start somewhere on rankings.

Golden Storm - Aeron Damphair's longship http://www.towerofthehand.com/reference/k/02144/index.html

I like the idea you guys had while discussing Greyjoy of making them have an income denial theme. That would be cool.

I haven't listened to the podcast yet either (just got home, so will likely listen tomorrow morning), so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

I agree with Dobbler's assessment of Targ, but I also think what Rings said a month or so ago is true too: Targ has some of the most powerful effects in the game. I think someone who really enjoys playing Targ burn, and has enough experience to know/remember when exactly to trigger all the effects (remembering Forever Burning alone can be tough), can take advantage of Targ's strengths.

I think a second key reason Targ can do well is that very few other deck types and players are ready for Targ, and burn in particular. Targ (especially burn) is difficult to build AND play, so it's often less popular, at least when it comes to competitive turnout. What happens then is people don't really plan for burn...you build a deck to avoid Martell's VB and other metagame cards that are much more popular, but then you fail to address some key vulnerabilities. For example, a good burn deck can carve apart a Beric/Red Viper deck or a Martell summer deck reliant on its maesters, whereas those builds might otherwise be very strong against the rest of the field.

At the end of the day though, Targ as a whole is (in my opinion) probably ranked the worst. Even its most competitive build is difficult to play and doesn't really have any incredibly easy match ups (unlike Lanni and Martell, which have some easier match ups). What Targ lacks, I think, is some form of card advantage to pull its various (sometimes schizophrenic) mechanics together.

Something else to consider is whether you're talking melee or joust. As we were discussing melee in particular in this last episode, I'm thinking that Targaryen is pretty much dead last in melee since they have no appreciable power grabbing effects or characters which is truly key in melee. Joust opens up other possibilities, but in the end, I think I agree with Dobbler and Rings.

Greyjoy can only draw when they are doing well, require winter for their strongest cards, and have a horrible gold curve. Back when Greyjoy had a lot more location destruction, and choke they could afford to put out 1 army a turn and just lock the opponent. But this environment does not enable them to do so.

Milling is not card advantage, its a random effect generator. If you want to give them non-draw based card advantage bring back the 45 card deck agenda we had in 5KE.

For a house in the series that follows the old ways... their support for holy sucks.

Cards like Seastone Chair... a lot of decent cards... but no synergy.

Being someone who mostly plays unique characters, I never understood the power of Wintertime Marauders.

Another problem is FFG needs to stop printing cards that just hose Greyjoy or make them the less effiecient version.

Melisandre, Narrow Escape, War Horn, Climibing Spikes, Salhadhor Saan. < I mean a Greyjoy player can make a better version of his deck just playing Baratheon with some Wildlings. I honestly feel they need another box expansion.

Targ by the way...

(1) Has the best recursion in the game.

(2) Because of said recursion, they can keep it summer indefinitely.

(3) Vaes Dothrak and Jhogo provde decent card draw.

(4) Targ has strong synergy with almost each chapter pack set: Summer (AToR), Shadows (KLE), Dothraki (BwB).

In terms of card pool, Targ is perhaps the second if not top house. (I think Stark or Lanni is stronger).

ktom said:

1) i don't think popularity should come into top house diccussions. stark will always be a popurlar house and will always be highly represented independent of its power level.

2) # and variety of competitive decks also is another odd critieria. It could be argued lanni only has 1 competitive deck (~until will finishes his clansmen deck) and its not like lanni isn't at the least top 2. also, i find variety of themes to work against a house. compare bara and targ. targ has 3 - 4 themes. of those themes they all work independantly (with varying degrees of success) but also add to each other. A dothraki deck is benefited by burn cards just as a burn deck can use summer or dothraki tech. Greyjoy gets over looked because it only has arguably 1 competitive build, but as Dobbler proved you catch people off card with that deck and it is still an effective deck.

3) % of play at a major tourney. to me this is tough as you are now including people's preferences and style's again. If there are 100 decks and only 1 house targ and house targ wins....whats the impact of it being 1%?

4) Targ burn might be the most 'famous' house targ deck, but it is far from the only viable deck for house targ. Baratheon, on the other end of the spectrum has lots and lots of deck builds that get played in tourneys, but they all have flaws and i still submit that baratheon as an overall housue is hurt by the disperate and varied themes. Asshai doesn;t slot into knights, obviously summer and winter don't add to each other. Shadows and their resource base are also on opposite ends.

5) I view the hosues more as tiers, and then maybe i'd use some of your above stated criteria if i needed to rank houses within those tiers.

here are my competive tiers which i base on what i'm going to see at a tourney and the serious threat factor they present to not only beat me but win the tourney:

1: Lanni, Targ, Martell, Stark

2: Greyjoy, neutral, Bara

breaking down the tiers i'd go:

Tier 1:

1) lanni, still king of the hill in my mind. Draw, control, solid weenie and power characters, and the income to afford it all. sure thye haven't gotten anything sexy lately, but you know they will be at a tourney and you have to take them seriously to win it.

2) martell a few interesting builds, solid draw, solid control, can rush if need be, maybe a bit weaker then lanni in the weenies. Again you know you will see them and have to take them seriously.

3) targ, the most uncancelable control elements in the game, a little more expensive and a little less reliable draw. always a tough match and a good shot of at least making top 4

4) stark, not as many tricks so i usually know where the weaknesses are. if they get their draw could be dangerous, should make top 4.

Tier 2:

5) if they are there they could be trouble, a little preperation goes a long way.

6) bara, power rush's flaws have been exposed numerous times, early resets/income choke control their characters. takes a really lucky day for them to make top 4 with rush. expensive characters, unsustianable income, draw issues, no matter the build.

7) neutral, haven't seen anything out of this yet that makes me feel threatened. brootherhood is interesting, something could happen to change my mind.

Hey guys,

Great job as usual with the podcast. As a new player, I would appreciate it if occasionally you guys would slow down and explain the cards, especially the CCG-era ones. Obviously doing this for every card mentioned would be tedious, but sometimes I can't type the cards into the card database fast enough to find them! Sometimes the combos mentioned are also pretty challenging to understand, such as the one a few episodes back, using Pyre of the False God s. Just a thought.

Otherwise, fantastic job! Thanks for doing this!

Thanks for the kind words, Sean.

We've been looking at doing an entire n00b centric episode where we try to break down what we find important about deckbuilding and play from the most basic standpoint we can manage and then building up from there. We might also possibly discuss a few of the terms that you see thrown around in the community that may not be explained like "Nedly" and the like. Would such an episode be useful and interesting to you or others?

Kennon said:

I personally would love an episode like that, I am always looking for deck building tips from experienced competitive players. I have, by now, learned what 'Nedly' means, but I think a discussion of some terms wouldn't go amiss either, especially those that pertain to deck building that players who have not played other CCGs may not be familiar with (weenie, voltron, etc.).

You could also do a section every other week or so where you discuss one established deck type for a particular house (Targ Burn, Greyjoy Choke, ...) key cards, strengths, weaknesses, counter strategies. It would be neat for students of the game like myself at least

I agree that would be an awesome idea for an episode. I would play it when teaching new players and listen to it with my fiance. She already plays somewhat but noob advice would help her too. Heck I am sure we might all learn a few things no matter how long we have been playing.

I've been meaning to post my comments on this episode, but just didn't get around to it until now....

Solid episode guys! I liked the breakdown of both joust and melee house rankings. I think you brought up some good points for both lists. I generally agree with how you ranked the houses, though I'm still not 100% convinced that GJ is at the bottom for joust. I agree it's not super high, and it has to go somewhere, but would probably still put that house above Targ. (Even if Targ can tear apart GJ, the latter seems more solid over all.)

The other content was good too, and the segment on Dobbler's Dating Disasters was entertaining. In fact, my wife happened to overhear part of it and laugh (she says Will has a good radio voice, btw).

One last comment on the pace/format: I think you guys struck a great mix of substance and entertainment. The episode played like it was a bunch of friends talking about this stuff, but wasn't full of inside jokes/content, and the substance was interesting. Also, I'm not sure how much you guys are editing, but the flow/audio levels/on-topic/etc all continue to improve. Very nice work!

Thumbs Up!

Thanks for the props all around. Haha, we told you guys that we'd take the pertinent feedback to heart and continue to improve. I'm spending a bit more time editing, but even I can say it's a better product coming out in the end. Thanks to your wife for the props on my radio voice. I get that alot. Hmm... had I brought that up on the show before? I forget. Anyway, just wait till you hear the episode this Friday! You get to hear me read for an extended period.

Also, I've been trying to test Greyjoy out more this weekend and I actually think that what is driving me up the wall the most is lack of the traditional location destruction. (Ok, draw is still VERY scarce for them too). But really, I don't have any awesome in house options like I used to have. A reprint of High Tide, Pillage, or Conquer would go a long way towards giving me a solid way to attack my opponents that would feel different from the other houses. Well, except maybe Stark, who does location control better than Greyjoy right now.

Twn2dn said:

Actually, Will has a good radio FACE.

Oh, snap!

Just listened...

I certainly agree that GJ and Bara are #1 and #2 in melee. (See my previous ramblings: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=16&efcid=4&efidt=410342 )

In the past, I've really liked Stark Defense in melee. I find if you can build up a big enough wall, people leave you alone. However, Stark Defense really doesn't have enough power grabbing abilities to keep up.

I'm with Will on the conditional "Leave it alone" for NE. A quick paper shield will make everything just fine for me.

Keep up the good work guys!