Decessor said:

Tyranid Hive Fleets aren't that numerous, either - it stands to reason that when one enters Imperial space it would be met with anything the Deathwatch can muster in the appropriate timeframe.

Either way, of course I was exaggerating to make a point. I still consider it "questionable" to have the Deathwatch able to show up with many time the strength of a real Chapter. Yes, I do know they have to cover the entire span of the Imperium, but so have the Adepta Sororitas Purity Control teams and they are still few in number - it just means that they jump from system to system depending on where they are needed the most, fully aware of the fact that they cannot be everywhere at once. This is kinda why the other Imperial Forces - the normal Space Marines, the Imperial Guard, the Planetary Defense Forces - still have something to do. Exactly because neither of the Chambers Militant can be everywhere where there's work for them. Because even a single squad of Deathwatch Veteran Marines is an incrediblly powerful force that would be considered wasted when thrown against "just" a bunch of Orks - not to mention all the other formations and vehicles the Deathwatch has now been granted by this retcon. Including at least one Battle Barge. Seriously, how do you use that thing?

Obviously this expansion in manpower is also connected to the expansion in jurisdiction. Back in the days, when the Deathwatch would be aware of Chaos activity they would pass this on to other Imperial bodies, not call in their fleet of starships and tank regiments to take the enemy on by themselves. I suppose this is a concession to player groups that are not content with fighting "just" xenos, as the book encourages people to send the Deathwatch against other types of enemies as well. Makes you wonder if we have Grey Knights hunting Orks in the upcoming Ordo Malleus book just to give people more options for their individual characters.

Just my two Thrones on the subject, of course. As already mentioned there are people who are obviously quite happy with this change.

Lynata said:

Maybe I missed part of the debate here but I don't think anyone would feel it would be 'realistic' for the DW to show up with chapter strength or greater forces. The larger than 1000 number is simply a conjecture based on the concept that if you only had 1000 marines you'd never have more than a single kill team in a sector. And if 6,000 Marines was enough to solve the galaxy's problems, then why haven't the Black Templars been able to crush all the Empire's enemies (or why haven't the 1,000,000 other Space Marines managed to put a more significant dent in the problem?)

Lynata said:

What original rules are you going by here regarding this 'retcon,' out of curiosity? What I've read prior to the DW RPG was pretty light on the inner workings and supply chain of the organization. The biggest retcon I see is that they don't report into the Inquisition directly and they're not 90% Ultramarine. That aside, access to weapons and vehicles doesn't mean they're available in any sort of number.

How do you use a battle barge in the game? As a plot device. Reading O.E. they use the barge, more than likely because a smaller craft would simply get it's ass kicked by the hive ship and its friends. It provides support for the kill team without over powering or overshadowing them. And honestly that's the only mention of a ship that size I know of.

Lynata said:

Again, this question is clouded by not knowing where you got your information from, but what expanded manpower and what expanded jurisdiction? The Reach is a very special place, and most of what I've read seems to imply that DW fighting chaos is going to be encouraged A) by the immediacy of the situation and an unwillingness to let red tape get in the way of solving a problem for humanity, and/or B) the chaos force being addressed by Ordo Xenos Marines is a significant enough threat to the Reach they feel the need to so something (as the Reach is super important due to whatever mysterious reasons the writers have in store).

Charmander said:

Actually, it's exactly because there are so few Marines as to why there's still so much trouble all around - and this includes Deathwatch. They cannot be everywhere where they are needed, so other Imperial forces have to suck it up. I've always understood Deathwatch to be like a single in the bucket - just like Purity Control. If you have the Deathwatch active in every single sector of the Imperium, doing a mission on about every single day, that would mean a lot less to do for the Imperial Guard or the other Space Marines, and it would make them crop up on people's radar way more often as well. In the fluff up until now they have been suspiciously absent from any major events fought by the regular Astartes or the Guard, so I do believe that their new jurisdiction to engage anything anti-Imperial is quite a change. That said, now they no longer move around just in squads alone but entire Companies, so anything else would be a waste I guess. It's just that their new portrayal in the RPG would pretty much warrant their presence in every major action from now on, simply because they really are everywhere .

Charmander said:

Yeah, it was not much, but it was very consistent in focusing on the kill teams as the one thing the Deathwatch did - which also fits much better to the old idea of an Inquisitorial assignment rather than a "Chapter" in their own right. Small elite teams travelling from sector to sector, reacting to the largest xenos threats wherever they could be put down with a quick decivise strike, before it even gets necessary to move in heavier equipment and call the Guard or the "real" Chapters. But now that Deathwatch has its own tanks and stuff, that too will no longer be necessary I presume.

Charmander said:

That doesn't make it any better. Given that the Acherus Crusade is just one of many theaters we're going to have to assume that there are more. But it's not even just the Battle Barge - reading on, we also have Watch Fortress Erioch, which is capable of housing an entire Chapter of Marines, though you will usually "only" find about 200 Deathwatch Marines hanging out in there. That's 2 entire Companies in that one place alone. Added to that come countless Watch Stations crewed by Marines as well. Oh, and of course their own warfleet with all its capital ships (not counting the armada of overpowered drone killships they have at their beck and call as well) plus the Battle Barge with the troops carried there. Deathwatch in the Jericho Reach alone is probably large enough to be a full Chapter in their own right. And here I thought there was some sort of decree banning Space Marine Legions to prevent a second Horus Heresy.

Charmander said:

So, pretty much what would apply everywhere else, too?

I dunno. Maybe it's just me, but for an organization that once was all about small kill-teams accompanying Inquisitors on a small scale xenos purge they've sure come an extremely long way in just a few books published mere months apart. For an organization that is still supposedly all about secrecy they're kinda pushing the limits with their array of capital ships and vehicles and Companies upon Companies of men.

In short, I think Deathwatch has become way too close to a normal Space Marine Chapter. And now they're even challenging the regular Marines when it comes to fighting stuff other than aliens.

That's pretty much all I can say to this particular topic. I do recognize it's largely based on individual perception and my personal penchant for clinging to stuff as I've learned it (retcons are my personal nemesis), so you may take all that as my personal opinion on the matter. If you have no issues with the new Deathwatch and/or even prefer it to the old image, then you are in luck and we should probably just agree to disagree on this.

Lynata said:

Where are you getting this from?

Page 328, Core Rulebook: "The Watch Fortress could hold a hold an entire Chapter of Adeptus Astartes with ease, but its records show that there are rarely more than a few score Deathwatch garrisoning it at any time. Even during the grim events of the Council of the Ascension in 756.M41, no more than two hundred battle-brothers were gathered within the Fortress."

So the only marines you will find within Erioch for sure are the Watch Commander, Watch Captains, Forge Master, Guardians of the Chamber of Vigilance (10 strong) and other Kill Team members who are not deployed. I'd also guess a handful of Techmarines keeping everything working, though its not mentioned anywhere.

The one rare exception to this was the Council of Ascension:

Page 9, Know No Fear: "On the eve of the Feast of the Emperor’s Ascension, four Inquisitors and two hundred brothers of the Deathwatch arrive to the fortress at the same time. All claim to have received a coded message that called them to attend at the Watch Fortress. The source of the message is unknown."

So at one time, in the known history of Erioch, there has been two hundred Deathwatch within. This happens one year after the warp gate is found. They don't go into detail, but I'd assume that either these two hundred were ALL the Deathwatch in the sector (unlikely, seems like a lot) or a combination of all the Deathwatch in the Reach along with some arriving via the warp gate.

It's also not hard to believe that Jericho Reach is something of a unique concentration of Deathwatch, by the reason that they were basically left as the lone Imperial authority for a long time, paired with the perceived significance of Erioch itself and the mystery of the warp gate. Aside from the fleet, which is more or less necessary to pursue any sort of truly clandestine agenda. It's also within reason to believe that Deathwatch has received the same professional courtesy that the Space Wolves have, in that they can retain a higher than average roster in recognition of their effectiveness and power as an institution. Too much seems to be weighted on seeing Jericho not as an exception, but the rule itself, as though every sector has a Fortress just like it. In all likelihood, the Deathwatch retain their pre-RPG model in the lion's share of other sectors in the Imperium, with any concentrations of power acting as headquarters for actions potentially across dozens of sectors, if not more. And if the warp storms interfering with regular travel to the Reach ever abate, Erioch could easily attain that role in the Ultima Segmentum, southeast reaches. It could be a great hub of Deathwatch activities, supporting dozens of kill teams, though rarely seeing more than a few on the station during any one time period.

kenshin138 said:

I have to apologize - I've made a rather embarassing mistake here when I took the term "score" to mean 100 when, in fact, it just means 20. I have not seen that term in use as a numerical descriptor for quite some time and must have remembered it wrong. My native tongue also lacks a corresponding term for both numbers which might have otherwise served as an "anchor" to remember it better.

My personal opinion regarding Deathwatch fleets, Battle Barges and tank formations still stands, though. I've simply "grown up" (with the 40k franchise) in the belief that greater engagements would be reserved for the Guard and "proper" Marine Chapters. It simply feels like a massive inflation to me - and active meddling with other Imperial organizations' job. Kind of like scaling Delta Force up to Regiment size and use them as mechanized line infantry, if you get my drift. Or, alternatively, keeping the idea of kill-teams but having them so numerous that they are virtually everywhere where they'd be needed - which "does not feel grimdark enough" for the setting.

kenshin138 said:

Given that they were specifically called to attend this meeting, would this not mean this is -at least- the number of Marines currently in the sector?

Lynata said:

I think you're doing pretty well with your communication in a non-native tongue

Lynata said:

I don't think that they're that big. Something I think is easy to overlook in 40k is the sheer size of the galaxy. Even with a million marines, you can't actually be everywhere, let alone at once. So the DW having 6000 means they're still stretched extraordinarily thin across the lines. I don't get the feel that they're operating with regiments either, the book still has them operating in kill teams of few number, I don't know anywhere that it talks about the DW Marines forming companies 100 strong and descending into battle. If it did, the adventures and mission section would be much different, having the players interact with a ton of other marines when it really only sends the pcs into the fight. Check out Final Sanction, and even Oblivion's Edge, the PCs are all there is. They get some Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy help, but they're the key to victory.

As Data says, the Reach is the special place that's created to be a hot zone. Even if there are 100 marines in the Reach, that number still pales in comparison to the number of regular marines that were deployed there (can't recall the page number, but talks about early crusade deployments). There is exactly one reference to a battle barge that I'm aware of (does RoB refer to them), and if a standard chapter can have 2-3 of the things why is it out of the question the DW would have one, especially if the Reach is as important as they act like it is.

Greater engagements are reserved for the other Imperial Orgs- the crusade going on in the Reach consists of Titan Legions, Astartes battle companies, Imperial Guard regiments, Mechanicus ships, Naval formations, Rogue Traders, Assassins, Grey Knights, Inquisitors, and probably a bunch of tag-alongs. The DW were not in the Reach reclaiming it for mankind, they were sitting quietly trying to remain unnoticed as aliens and chaos ran all over the place.

Lynata said:

Not if they came from outside the Reach via the Warp Gate or other means- it never said they were all in the Reach, it just says it was important enough for a bunch of them to be summoned. Again though, even if it is 200 in the sector, the Reach is a special place. The fact that it mentions that there was some unknown coded message that summoned a bunch of Brothers to the fortress to arrive at the same time seems pretty uniqe to me.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you here, mind you, I'm simply trying to explain why I don't really think the DW has been retconned so bad that they're now a regular chapter. I feel they've kept a lot of the older 'elite small team' stuff pretty well, they just have the Reach as a super important place that would justify having more Marines in there for gameplay reasons.

Agreed, nobody is really arguing. Rather, most of us are not seeing the massive scale-up that you are, so trying to show you that its not the case.

Basically, you aren't going to see things like Deathwatch armoured columns, massive drop-pod assaults, etc. The Deathwatch are still the small elite force they always were. The only real change was making them answer to themselves, and not directly to the Inquisition.

In essence, they are quite literally the Xenos version of the Grey Knights; only they are spread around very, very thin.

Also, I don't think that "score" is being used as an exact unit of measurement either, rather I think its just figurative speaking for "not a whole lot".

Might just be that I missed something "back then", it's just that DW was the first time I recall having seen things like Kill Ship armadas etc. Everything about the Deathwatch just seems so much bigger than I always thought - and even if Jericho Reach is an exception, the book making clear that Deathwatch has access to everything any other Marine Chapter has is a bit worrysome. Added to that comes my usual scepticism for "bending the setting" to make it more "suitable" for players (which I believe has happened here).

Let's just say I've had bad experience with changes (note: changes, not additions) made to a setting. I've always appreciated the relative "solidity" of 40k (at least from 2nd Ed forward), so it could well be that I'm overreacting because I generally have a hard time adapting to major retcons. Something gets changed and I keep spotting things where I believe it just doesn't fit as well anymore as it did before. Kind of like changing the shape of a single piece of a larger puzzle and then squeezing it back in.

Oh well. I'm sorry to have wasted people's time with this little rant of mine.

Not if they came from outside the Reach via the Warp Gate or other means

Lynata said:

I don't find it a waste, that's what forums are for .

And I totally understand the retcon perspective. It's easy to fall in love with a particular style and setting, and when someone goes and changes it, it can just never feel the same again. I'm just trying to change your mind (mainly because I want you to enjoy the setting they've made as much as I do)- give the descriptions another read, a lot of the stuff in there agrees, at least in theory, with some of the ideas you've presented (at least I think so).

If you want to see what's special about the Reach check out page 328, "The Long Watch." The Deathwatch set up camp in here and essentially swore to watch over this chunk of space for eternity: "The orders effect, however, was to place the Jericho Reach directly under the eyes of the Deathwatch in perpetuity..." One could infer that the number of fortresses, number of marines, type of weapons, and so on, have indeed made the Reach DW Marines a little bit more like a 'standard' Chapter, but in the context of the Reach I personally think that's okay.

As for their equipment, this is a quote from the lexicanum, which doesn't appear to have updated the Deathwatch entry since the RPG's release: "Usually, a Deathwatch team is led by an Inquisitor, but in extreme circumstances, a Deathwatch Captain or Librarian may take command of the unit. Their word is law, and can requisition anything they desire to get the job done. They are the best armed and trained units in the Imperium." So from that and my otherwise light information on the DW is that they've always had, or at least had access to, whatever they needed for the job. My reading says in the case of the Reach, they simply never gave back what they borrowed.

As for the fleets of ships, check out page 335 and it might make you feel better about the use of warships: "The lighter classes of vessels suit the needs of the Deathwatch admirably, as their missions most commonly need to deploy and extract very small numbers of Deathwatch Battle-Brothers." I read from this that the DW in the Reach may have a couple of heavier ships, they keep them docked and waiting for a mission that requires their use, which rarely, if ever, happens (maybe it happens, or will happen, more now that the end is near).

On to the 200 Marines, The Council of the Ascension/Gathering of the Ascention; this is said to have happened a year after the gate opened. The most expansive details I've found (Maybe RoB has more?) can be found in "Know No Fear", which is the Jericho Reach timeline found on the support page (as noted by Kenshin). After the party a ton of people were killed by an assassin, I'm betting a lot of people packed up and went home after that. The event also happened in 61 years prior to the 'curren't' date presented in the book (feast was in 756, current date is 817).

TL;DR Version: No one can convince me that ET is better with walkie talkies instead of shotguns, or that the Star Wars Prequels were good, or that re-making all my old favorite 80s cartoons (which in hind sight most of those were absolutely awful) into movies is a good plan. If you disagree with us and still feel dirty by some of the changes in DW, I can't say that I'd blame you- I'd just hope you'd give the Reach section and the Deathwatch origins sections another read and another chance

Lynata said:

Yes, and you're not alone in it. In my world, there are no fleets of DW ships, or even battle barges. Certainly no armoured formations.

The Reach *is* a nexus for the Watch. Which is why they have about 50 marines here instead of the single kill-team that any other sector would be statistically *lucky* to have. That's still not carte blanche in my mind for them to start rolling up in tank squadrons, company formations, or with ships-of-the-line.

Erm... but 'Score' is a unit of measure, Kenshin. They might mean '20ish', but it's still '20ish' rather than '5-50ish'.

I don't think it's a major ret-con for the Watch to have 50 guys in the Reach. It's a special situation, and that is made clear. Just keep in mind that everywhere else they are spread VERY thinly.