The Ultramarine movie got me thinking about this and I have not been able to find further information on the topic. In the Ultramarine movie, the corrupted captain says "This is my ship". I would assume that Imperial Navy fly the ships, So my question would be are those naval personal considered part of the chapter cult, or are they on loan from the Navy and under the Command of the Chapter Master? Or is there marines that are actually flying the ships who are masters of stellar navigation and what not? Would appreciate any insight into this.

The people flying SM ships are their serfs and do not belong to the Imperial Navy. The way I heard it/read it the only people that do not really belong to the chapter on board an SM vessel are the navigators (who are unique enough to wield so much clout that integrating them into a chapter would give everyone a headache). You need to look at the ship as another part of the chapter, an organization that only nominally is controlled by the imperium.

From what I understand it depends on the Chapter, I can with certainty tell you that the Space Wolves have a Space Wolf Captain in charge, the usual Navigator (from House Belasarius <not sure of spelling>),Adeptus Mechanicus, and astropaths but the rest are Bondsmen, those who have failed the trials (and didnt die) but was deemed worthy to continue to serve the Chapter.

Others probibly would be along the same but the crew depends on the Chapter, some use the dregs and prisoners of worlds, others use Imperial Navy crewmen, most I would think is a mix....the dangerous tasks are done by the dregs overseen by Imperial Navy crew/officers. The bridge crew is usually Imperial Navy or specially trained humans from their homeworld or other worlds.

Thanks for the input on that. Will help me in another portion of my campaign coming up.

As I donot want to open another thread, please let me join discussion about SM and starships from another angle. From core rulebook we know that Deathwatch uses mainly smaller and faster ships to deliver Kill-teams into right place but I wonder if that is always the case? Maybe there are situation that Erioch [or another fortresses] must mobilize their own fleets when Navy support is not aveliable [or threat is so big that they must help Navy with their own ships]. I would like to see in DW line rules and stats that allow us play space battles aka RT. It would be great to repel Tyranid Hive ship with Battle Barge and Strike cruisers. What do you think about that?

I don't think that the Deathwatch has or needs such large vessels. Barges and Strike Cruisers aren't primarily ships of the line anyway: It's their job to get Marines where they're supposed to be and deploy them safely. As Deathwatch doesn't tend to deploy 300 or more Marines at once, it renders Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges somewhat useless and wasteful for them.

YMMV, of course.

If there is need to deploy a Battle Barge then the Deathwatch would request aid from a Space Marine Chapter.

If you wish to have space battles then I would adapt Rogue Trader rules to Deathwatch.

muzzyman1981 said:

I have never heard of Astartes needing the help of prisoners or dregs, but I haven't read everything. My understanding is that all crew belong to the chapter, with the aforementioned exception of the Navigators (even then some chapters can use their librarians as Navigators in emergencies). Also the chapters don't borrow the ships, they belong to the chapter so I don't see Imperial Navy being allowed to control any function of an Astartes vessel, but again I am only recently a lore junkie.

The typical Chapter hierarchy goes something like this:

Astartes (typically 910 marines): Including Chapter Master, Chief Lib, Chaplins, the Captains, down through the lowest ranked squad members. This also includes the anchient and mighty dreadnoughts, but they don't count in the 900 figure above I believe.

Scouts & initiates(90 - ??): Those initiates still on track to become full Battle Brothers. Recruiting is never a even flow when you are as picky as all Astartes chapters are. Thus there are often a variable number of initiates at various levels from just recruited through full scout. Death and rejection rates are high, but even those that fail to become scouts then Battle Brothers will serve the chapter provided they don't die. The Astartes waste nothing.

Serfs (Thousands): Those initiates that have proven unworthy of becoming a Battle Brother, but not so unworthy as to be made a servitor. Often these men are great warriors, tacticians, and thinkers, but perhaps a implant wouldn't take but didn't kill them. A few chapters maintain a hereditary population of serfs however. Most chapters have a rank and hierarchy system for the serfs, but I believe they are more feudal and less military in most chapters.

Servitors (Tens of thousands): All those acquired by the chapter that fail in some way to be worthy of serving any other way. These men (maybe even women) are integrated with machines that will assist them in function and they are mind wiped. Most can do one or two tasks very well, but are not capable of independent thought. Most of the grunt work on Astartes ships is done by Servitors directed by Serfs.

For those of you more versed in the lore of 40k, did I miss something, get something wrong?

Siranui said:

You are probably right in most cases but in Rites of Battle it is mentioned that when DW makes purges they destroy every alien ship. It is something that will require firepower of at least frigate but in most cases you need more powerful ship [or you need more of them so bigger space battles are possible]. In RoB it is also mentioned that very ralely DW crusade can be called and I think that in that case cruisers and barges will be used. And after all I doubt that in RT line they give us stats and fluff for Astartes ships so maybe DW authors would be so kind...:-)

Humm there are mentions of DW gathering full companies even in the book, this would require at least a strike cruiser. Alto being an ordo Xenos extension they probably have commandeering rights on any ships they want or can pull their rights on.

Thanks for all the input, with this and what I got from the RT guys I should be good. I am planing on the players coming across an old(apparently abandoned) Battle Barge belonging to the Blood Ravens chapter(what I have found looking into them is that they are a heavy fleet chapter having no homeworld and relying on deepstrikes).

For the DW they are going to be aboard The Pious Immolation a modified firestorm-class frigate owned and operated by the Calixian Conclave, since DW is not a chapter more of an orginization attached to the Ordo Xenos I thought this would be appropriate.

up to a limit we are dealing with DW, they may even mounted some aquired and "sanctified" Xeno tech

Nimon said:

I wonder if this is how the DW acquires some of the relics that it keeps in it's vaults....

Chrynoble said:

Me either but in some circumstances, I can see the need for additional non homeworld crew. For chapters that recruit from a single Death World, eg Space Wolves (but many more) of hunter gathers the planets population can't be more than a couple of million. Of course they are tough b@stards so they need less recruits to find people of the right calibre but that means they don't have as many failed recruits as other planets. If you say a cruiser has a 50K crew (it's probably less but servitors would of course come from your failed recruits too and this is only the cruisers let alone the frigates and destroyers), then a full compliment of 1 per company is 500,000 or say percent of total population and of course this actually only comes from half the total population because they don't recruit females. So that's 20% of the male population just for your ships let alone the PDF, ground based support, technical staff and the people that die trying to become Space Marines (which if one comic was to be belived was decided by a knife fight to the death for a dozen men).

Chrynoble said:

Nope. To be honest, you've completely hit it on the head. For someone only recently interested in 40k, that's a very impressive description (drawn, I believe, from quite a large number of sources - I'm seeing rulebooks and novels in here, am I right?)

Good effort

Well, I'd remind you that some Chapters are draining their recruiting worlds more than others. Places like Fenris or Baal don't really have any PDF forces at all, relying on the fact that only the stupid or insanely foolhardy would attack one of them.

As for Space Marine ships, they run their own fleets, but that doesn't mean they don't sometimes use outside forces for transport if the need should arise. Hitching a ride aboard a Rogue Trader's ship, or the Imperial Navy, but this would generally be only in the case of a crusade, or some other large military campaign where they're working in concert with other forces.

I'd tend to assume that Marines, being afforded the most advanced equipment the Mechanicus can supply them with, have ships that take less than the normal amount of crew to run properly, before factoring in the large number of servitors that Space Marines will use. There are old BFG articles talking about how Marine ships run, you can probably download them for free at the specialist games part of the website.

As for the Deathwatch itself, I'd imagine most of its fleet consists of frigates and destroyers, with a small number of Strike Cruisers and maybe a single Battle Barge for the times when danger is at its greatest.

Blood Pact said:

There does seem to be this assumption that the Deathwatch is not as well equipped as other chapters when it comes to ships...I'd say this is almost certainly untrue.The "average" chapter (if there is such a thing) has 2 battle barges, about 7 Strike Cruisers and between 10-20 other, smaller ships.

The Deathwatch in the Jericho Reach alone have at least 1 former Ramilles class Star Fort and about a dozen small strike vessels, together with enough Kill ships to wipe out the entire Sector. That is a fleet which is capable of going toe to toe with a Chapter fleet on its own (for short periods.).

Bear in mind too that there are thousands of Sectors in the Galaxy, each potentially with similar levels of Deathwatch involvement...in my mind, the Deathwatch probably possess one of the best equipped Chapter fleets, and almost certainly have access to a number of Battle Barges, and probably even more potent vessels.

What makes them different from a normal chapter is that they are far more diffuse. Their forces are spread over a wider area than every other Chapter's, so they will usually have fewer personnel in any one place at any time. However, if massed together, they are probably far better equiped than the average Chapter, fleet wise.

That might be because it isn't really a chapter, it's just a group of marines.

I think your definition of Rapid Strike Vessel is somewhat skewed. A Rapid Strike Vessel (RSV) is what Chapter's often refer to their escort class vessels, such as the Hunter, Nova, or Gladius. Strike Cruisers are a separate breed altogether, being the ships that shunt Companies around. While I would not be surprised if the Deathwatch has more RSVs than most Chapters, it's very mandate of using small squads at the right place at the right time, sometimes in a very stealthy manner, lends itself away from having many ships of the line. I imagine there would be one or two Strike Cruisers per sector, potentially dozens of RSVs, and a Battle Barge to be shared amongst the organization over the space of a dozen sectors or more.

In the same note, the Jericho Reach seems to be at least somewhat unique in having Erioch. Most sectors aren't going to have these massive fortresses just waiting for the use of the Deathwatch. Moreover, the Deathwatch operates in the Jericho Reach rather uniquely, both among the majority of Chapters and the whole of Deathwatch. It operates a static position, basically waiting for something to happen. Most Chapters are roving over the galaxy, pursuing their respective campaigns, and Deathwatch operates in much the same way, seeking out the xenos, rather than waiting in a sector for something to come along. Deathwatch takes the model that Space Marines operate by, that of the properly applied force at the right place can completely tip the balance of a campaign, and extends it even further, while focusing it towards the myriad xenos threats to the Imperium. A Space Marine force fights by dropping right in the midst of the enemy, where they can do the most damage to the structure of the enemy army. A whole Company of Marines might right on the command cadre of the enemy. Deathwatch do the same, though at a finer scale. Where a typical Chapter might use a Company, the Deathwatch will accomplish the same with a single bolt round, months earlier, precluding the entire enemy offensive. If Space Marines fight like a scalpel, the Deathwatch fights like a needle, delivering the 'cure' exactly where needed.

I would think the DW would use stripped down raider class vessels for the majority of their deployments, speed and stealth being a key component of their mission structure. These ships would probably be very simple in terms of amenities and armed with effective, but light weaponry. I would imagine that they would actively avoid space combat and concentrate on getting in and out of a system as quickly and quietly as possible.

Data007 said:

Yes and NO. If you read the book correctly they state that there are countless of monitor stations and what not for those of limits world sometimes crewed or not by DW marines.

They would actually do both, roam and protect/guard some very dangerous sectors.

Deathwatch is comparatively small and yet has to protect the entire Imperium from the threat of the xenos. By this idea alone it stands to reason that is is incredibly rare that they assemble on Company level or beyond. Their spaceships would undoubtedly fit to this kind of deployment simply to enable their squads to cover a larger area simultaneously. For large scale engagements, this is where you bring in full Chapters, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and/or the Imperial Guard.

The Sisters of Battle, as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, operate in much the same way to get around, relying mostly on transport vessels. The largest ship ever mentioned for them was a Frigate.

Back before this RPG turned Deathwatch into a Marine Chapter, back when they were an Inquisitorial special unit, I suppose they had ships provided by the Ordo Xenos. With this retcon, I guess their ships have to come from the Marine Chapters as well?

ItsUncertainWho said:

Hunter-class and Cobra's are what I've gone with for the most part. The Cobra tends to jump between being a "frigate" and a "destroyer/raider", but I want to say in Into The Storm its classified as a "Raider". Hunter would be similar I think.

But yea, the Deathwatch in the Jericho Reach pretty much only use frigate/rapid strike/destroyer sized ships. Even the Thunder's Word, the most detailed of the ships in the game, is simply a Gladius-class Frigate.

Lynata said:

Which of course brings up the question, which chapter would give up a battle barge to the Deathwatch? Most chapters would be lucky to have a battle barge and each would be a character in it's own right, an honoured battle brother older and more experienced than their most revered dreadnought. I think it's aslikely that you would see a chapter master be sent to the deathwatch as you would see a battle barge.

Especially when if you know that that the deathwatch would rarely have a full company aboard let alone 3 and the parent chapter would sill need to find transport for 3 companies of marines.

With a battle barge if you aren't carrying several companies of Space Marine then you are shackling a mighty war machine to a force that isn't going to make the most of it and conversly if you aren't carrying 300 marines to shoot your way through an enemy blockade then the DW onboard could have got around a lot more quickly with smaller ships. They might have better chances of getting to a planet before there's a blockade at all.

I agree, I just can't come up with any situation where the DW would have a Battle Barge.