hi folks, i just checked out the rules for fotb. overall, it seems to be the best expansion so far. here are my pros and cons:

pros:

- subversion, trenches, new mines rules, special ammunition rules, probably very large tank battles (14 (!) t34`s in the box), german pak 40 75mm

cons:

- only six scenarios (again), no "new" german armor

i hope the scenarios to be balanced and there will be official scenarios made available online this time (no "official" scenarios with fox and normandy, although they were promised in the rules for fox and normandy...)

greetz from germany!!!

There is a lot of things here which sounds promesing .)

I like the sabotour, or atleast I think I do (depending on the cards) Both the limitation of when they can be used, and that they are only revealed when the enemy draws from a given deck of cards are fun elements.

Expert: an expert unit with some elites in it, is going to be deadly! Just emagine attacking with 6 dices and being able to reroll 4 of them. Thats not far from being equalent to 10 dices. Maybe a bit less, espesially on close range, but still, thats a hex of a lot. In addition to reroll also versus vehicles. I know its not the most obvius thing to do, but a single squad at close range has a preaty good shot at damaging a tank.

The instant mines rules could be a lot of fun. With these rules, instant mines on a critical bridge crossing for example would be possible without totaly unbalancing the scenario.

Trenches and balka. Espesially the balka. Not in line of sight is a powerfull ability. However a question: a unit IN the balka is not in line of sight, unless... However can the unit in a balka see other units? But anyway, placing an infanteri in a balka is neat to slow down the attacker.

Regarding the ammo: AP-B is only usefull at long range, while AP-C is only usefull at close range. At normal range isn't high-explosive ammo simply better?

14 T34s Now, whats their stats?

+4 panthers... Now I have 12. At a closer look I got +8 panthers. Now I have 16. 8 panthers, smells like a LARGE tank battle.

Personaly, I dont mind that we dont get more german armor. We allready have quit a few of them. Kind of liked that the german got another AT gun. Neat. Now, of to google the PaK 40.

First I was sceptical to the expert, as it gives a rather big boost in firepower, and if you add a few elites into the mix, they will be quit deadly versus infanteri. However, now I realise that in contrast to other spesilization infanteri, the expert decreases in power quit rapidly. For example a half-full Bazooka man has its firepower versus infanteri go from 7 to 5 dise at half strength. Not that great of a reduction. Likewise a flame-thrower is very powerfull as long as you have one or more squads in the base. Same goes for almost all spesilizations. But the expert, consisting of 2 elites (for arguments sake) has their firepower reduced from 6 to 4 AND #rerols decrased from 4 to 2. Which is a reduction of firepower equalent to almost 10 dices to almost 6 dices.

This means that an expert has great firepower, but probably not for a long time. You do not want to send him up in front for no reason.

But what I also release now is that the expert got quit a boost in punch versus tanks at close range. If my calculations are correct, the average #hits from point blank range increases from normaly 2 too 3. This is also confirmed by my dice experimentes showing the following probabilites (50 rolls)

0 hits: 2%

1 hits: 6%

2 hits: 12%

3 hits: 50%

4 hits: 30%

With 30% probability of 4 hits, an healthy expert infanteri have a fair shot at lightly damaging most vehicles, even tigers/panthers.

The Pack 40 is the German 75mm at gun.

APCR is much better than straight AP and APCB was a very efficent killer out to range. if i ever get the chance i will work up the Discarding Sabot or as Americans know it as Hyper Velocity shot. to give you an idea of it's power British 6 pdrs killerd Panthers with frontal shots using Sabot.

BJaffe01

I find it strange that HE is equally effective against tanks and infantry, but maybe I'm wrong.

On a first look, I love the expansion. Quite a few good additions.

Regarding HE:

I suppose the bonus only applies when firing at a vehicle.

Grand Stone said:

yeppa, this is exactly the way i understand this rule. it is "anti vehicle" ammunition, seems to be typo. but what happens, if an already lightly damaged vehicle moves into another balka hex. does it become heavily damaged? greetz!

Pros:

* It actually finally seems to be on its way!

* German PAK 40

* Winterized terrain

* New ammunition types (hope they'll be scenario specific, though as otherwise they might be just too strong...Also what happens when combining fire with a unit that does NOT have that type of ammo?)

* Game seems to be of good quality with a lot of time and effort put in. Now let'see if the scenarios are balanced too! (which improved a lot since the basegame, so I'm hopeful on this matter!)

Cons:

* No new German armor (Panzer II variant, other Panzer IV variant, other Panzer III variant, stug d just to mention a few possibilities...Well, hopefully we'll see some of these in a future Western front/ Early War expansion...)

* Not sure if I like the subversion rules

* Those expert squads seem a little too good. However, if only used in certain scenarios, they might be fun!

* Where's the anti-personnel special amo?!

Kingtiger said:

I thought HE is anti-personnel special ammo...

But it says anti-vehicle, that is correct. Hm, strange. Anti-personnel HE is still missing.

Kingtiger said:

Good for special forces, commandos or elite paratroopers...

KlausFritsch said:

I wonder if this is an error in the book. HE would have the stated effect on infantry. But then, Concussive Fire would need to be taken into account as well...which leads to the question...if tanks are loaded with these special munitions do they affect the Concussive Fire effects? An AP shot is going to be far less effective against infantry in buildings than an HE round. Hmmm....

With all the new bits and rules as well as the playtesting that must have gone into the new additions and the stuff that didn't make it into the box... definitely understand the length of time involved on this expansion.

FFG definitely pulled out the stops on this one... almost wish they made this a base set... If I had the dough (or a day job), I'd pick this up. Maybe start a kickstarter campaign on facebook for me to pick this up.

ALL WE NEED NOW IS A NEW SCENARIO EDITOR!!!! And then I'll quit playing M'44 online and pledge allegiance to the FFG... again.

Anti-Armor HE - I am thinking shaped charge, like Panzerfaust.

I think the standard firepower stats represents other types of HE.

Something is strange about the HE ammo, cuz it seems insanely powerfull as written. A test (roll 50 times) shows that a sherman with HE rounds has about 35g% probabilit of lightly damage a tiger, and about 15% of heavily damaging a tiger. And then just imagine what a panther could do with the same ammo. To me, that sounds just a bit over the top or?

Yes the expert seems powerfull, but I dont think its that much stronger than the flamethrower actually. And as KlausFritsch, in some cases they might be justified.

I'm sure the experts will become the new high priority infantry target depending on the squads used. Can finally play up the Rangers/Commandos/Brandenbrugers/etc. like I've always wanted. I fear the possibility that saboteur may have split camps. I agree the HE seems overpowered... I'm not a big fan of the armor/building destruction rules... I hope the ammo doesn't swamp the existing rules when in use.

Cipheron said:

I would assume it would as a lightly damaged vehicle that takes a single normal hit becomes heavily damaged.

I am a little disappointed we are only getting 6 scenarios since Normandy had 8 and it will be hard to comprehensively cover the whole Eastern front with such a small scenario count, but most of the rest of the expansion looks ok, apart from the lack of interesting new German pieces (I already have tons of panthers) - an Elefant for example would have been nice.

Complete Speculation Hat on here, but...

Perhaps there are only 6 scenarios because FFG is planning a 2nd book in the Designer Series, one that focuses specifically on the Eastern Front? I didn't see any scenarios that used all 14 T-34s (before the scenarios were taken down, that is). Probably not, but a ToI fan can always hope.

Also, if you re-check the rules, the scenarios are missing. Now a paragraph about the Fury of the Bear scenario booklet reads "Additional scenarios will be made available online at FantasyFlightGames.com. Feel free to create your own scenarios from the wealth of materials included in the game."

Brummbar said:

It should be less effective... but if you go through the trouble of paying for and allocating AP to one of your tanks, you won't waste it on infantry anyway... so, in a way, it is less effective against infantry because it is less likely to be used against infantry.

TeufelHund said:

I assume that too, but the way the rules are written, this is not clear.

KlausFritsch said:

That's what I though too, so imagine my surprise when I read it increases a unit's effectiveness against vehicles...Maybe the first errata for FoTB?

Also, in the rules it says: A unit can't operate equipment when it is pinned, HEAVILY DAMAGED etc. Since when can a UNIT (implies it could also be a vehicle) operate equipment and also infantry can never be "heavily damaged" so this surprised me as well. Errata number 2?

UNITS can move equipment.

SQUADS can fire equipment.

Hefsgaard said:

OK. Thanks. Now I get it. I was solely thinking of firing and I couldn't see a tank firing an AT gun...

Hefsgaard said:

I missed tha as well.

It seems strange that vehicles can tow guns no faster than infantry can push guns, though.

1. Its proberly a game balance thing.

2. It might be a scale thing.

3. It takes longer time to pack up a gun, hitch it, drive, unhitch it and set it up, that it does to roll it slowly a short distance.