Inspired by other projects and proposals around here, I revisited an old project that was mothballed and never finished - Addon Ability cards. It never worked out because players in Talisman want everything to be free and immediate once they get it... or they want someplace to buy it off with just gold. Either way, it just wouldn't work that way and would turn Talisman into chaotic game of "superheros" at the superpowers mall instead of stalwart adventures. I'm making this rather long post here vs. on my blog or elsewhere because this is where I've found the greater number or thoughtful homebrewers for this game. And I need feedback from such more serious developers before I decide if and how to burn more time on this idea stuck in my head.

The balance and superhero problem with too many new abilities piled on characters who already have them is still at issue. But if the abilities were gained outside of the Adventure deck, still had a cost to have them, and there was more uncertainty in drawing them, maybe that would work for some groups. Most of my stuff ends up being niche work anyway, but overall, that's the case with any homebrew. They aren't really made for ALL players groups. And so I'm proposing what I call a "Legends" deck for lack of a better term, which would be composed of multiple card types and not just Special Abiliites.

Each card _{type would be produced in separate supplement packs. Any group could decide which card type pack to use in their Legends deck. If they want to use just Special Ability cards, then they can have at it. Customization is always attractive... isn't it? Drawing from the deck would have a mechanic based in the actually where, when, what of activities by the characters themselves in the game. That way, access to the Legends deck is self-governing, and maybe produce some entertaining little races to get to its top card first.}

_{You'll see why/how below, and the deck doesn't become obtrusive with too many draws too often. The greed of players for "more power" will govern how often a Legend card might affect the game. Card mechanics would be rigged so that anything extra required by a Legend's draw could be accomplished during general adventuring. Let's start off with how the deck would be prepped and when a card is drawn.}

_Setup

1. _{Shuffle the enter Legends Deck and place it near the board for convenience.}

_Play

1. _{Each card back indicates either a space or Adventure card type that must be encountered for the top card to be drawn.}

_{Special Ability card type}

_{See Gallery of "beta" samples for this card type.}

_{These are what most players will want, but they shouldn't be free like drawing an Object or Follower. That turns back to the problem of unbalancing the game. Any one new ability added on top of those on a character card has the potential to make it futile for some other players/characters to continue a game. New abilties must be challenging to add, giving other players/characters a chance to do the same in reasonable time.}

_{Nor are they to be bought at particular locations in most cases; in being drawn, they might be acquired in more places according to the card back. Some can be activated anywhere, during certain types of encounters, or on certain groups of spaces, or when a particular action can be first successfully accomplished related to the specific Ability. The actual place where an Ability card is drawn does not always match where it can be used once activated. Some abilities of limited "where" of use could still be potent enough for "when" of use that they need to be more readily available. Note "Cragwise" to the left is used in the Crags but its back (seen above) indicates that it can be drawn on completing a turn in any Hills space.}

_{Drawing an Ability card}

_{Upon doing so at the end of the current turn, the player may privately review the card and decided whether to keep it or not. If the card is not desirable, it is discarded immediately, and the turn ends. If the card is kept...}

1. _{The player reviews "Activate" requirements on the card front's bottom and places the card face down next to its character card. This indicates an "unactivated" ability, and the turn ends.}

_{Activating an Ability and the new "Seek" rule.}

1. _{When the activation conditions of an Ability are met, the Ability card is turned face up next to the character card. The ability can now be used as described, just like those found on a character card.}

_{The "Seek" Rule.}

_{This key word may be found on other card types as well and is linked to description in the card of a particular space or space type. During play, a character uses normal movement options available, but it may stop short on any destination linked to a "seek." For example, Cragwise activation says to "seek the Crags." If the player is within 3 spaces of the Crags and rolls 3 or higher on the movement die, it may stop short on the Crags to "seek" that space instead of using its full movement roll.}

_{NOTE: Unless instructions on a card say otherwise, the player may not access any other options for the space of the "seek." It does not draw cards or get to use options of choice (such as in the Village, City, etc.). But it must apply any non-choice effects as found in spaces like the Cursed Glade, Desert, etc., for it is inside those spaces. There are risks to be faced in gaining any new form of power.}

_{The "seek" rule allows players a better chance beyond random movement to gain something drawn out of the Legends deck. It thereby also allows players to do so without interfering with normal, general adventuring. But it only applies where and when as stated on a Legend card.}

_{Activation Costs - the price for power.}

_{I analyzed probabilities for encountering all Adventure card and space types and subtypes in the core game, as well as subprobabilites within individual cards and spaces. I dug 3 to 4 levels deep into the probabilities. This built a statistical range based on a specific chance of the ability being used in relation to card and space types for its benefits, deficits, advantages and risks and how often any such would come up. The numbers for individual abilities revealed that common notions among some players about certain ones were off the mark or outright false.}

_{One instance was the woods-walk (woods teleport ability) of the Elf, that some have poo-pooed. I've always used it to good and sometimes devastating advantage; now I know why for certain. Primarily it allows more certainty in raiding the Adventurer deck on more turns and also getting out of range of other characters coming after it in the Outer Region. There were other more subtle though rare advantages; too many to go into.}

_{The constructed probabilty values for individual abitlities were then used to determine how much an Ability should cost to activate. Sometimes that cost was mitigated (lowered) by adding a location or other condition for activation. All costs were done by setting a cost range (initially 0 to 7) and applying the Ability value numbers to that range. Costs were not estimated off the cuff.}

_{I did like probability calculations (up to 3 and 4 levels deep) for units of cost. I looked at how easy or hard it was to gain a "free" or commonly sought unit of various types (Strength, Craft, Life, Fate, Object, Gold, etc., and Trophy points in general or of a specific type or subtype). Again, very revealing. It turned out that Gold was nearly the easiest to get with the least risk... almost dirt cheap, one might say, compared to others. It's gotten only worse since the Highlands was introduced, but all probability calculations considered only the core game. And hence, why with most Abilities, it is not the best unit for activation... unless its makes sense for a specific ability. Gold is just too easy a way to pile on new Special Abilities.}

_{Additional gained Abilities need to be treated more like adding on Strength and Craft "skil" points because of the balance issue. They should essentially be earned rather than bought. Almost all of them provide an advantage in dealing with the Adventure or other encounter decks, or such cards in combination with a space type. Thereby many (if not all) can directly or indirectly assist in gaining Trophy points. Though there are Strength and Craft to be gained for free, they are also more commonly raised in "skill" level through Trophy points, and getting them has the highest risk among units sought. Risk thereby mitigates their value versus other more "freely" gains units, even though Trophy points overall are the most readily avialable unit in the Adventure deck.}

_{I'm open to adjusting the costs of abilities, as yes some seem a bit high (on the powerful ones). But change in cost cannot be done piecemeal one card at a time. A range adjustment approach (perhaps lowering the range to 6 instead of 7) needs to be used. Only cost unit types can be addressed on an Ability by Ability basis without creating more imbalance. But I think it would surprise many at what activation would cost FAIRLY in some of those other units. All comments, suggestions, and feedback are welcome and needed.}

_{Legend card type}

_{See Gallery of "beta" samples for this card type.}

_{In order to build some uncertainty and challenge into the Legend deck, additional card types are best mixed in with the Special Abiltiies. As stated earlier, card types would be created in packs, so any group can decide on this themselves; they can just use the SA cards alone for their deck if they wish.}

_{When a Legend card is drawn, it must be played. It cannot be discarded. That is part of the risk and challenge that can be added to the Legends deck for those groups who do not want the deck to just be a way to build Talisman superheroes.}

_{For examples of Legend cards (and Task cards further below), I drew upon card concepts created for two past expansions: Talisman Tasks and the cooperatively developed Space Expanders, which can be found at TalismanIsland.com or on the Downloads page at my blog. The individual cards here are only for examples and not specifically ones that would be used for these card types. Notions for Legends, or even other card types suggested by anyone, might be considered as well.}

_{The term "Legends" for the deck is drawn from these cards, though they are little more legends than the Quest cards are real quests. If anyone has a more suitable term that would work for most players, that would be considered as well. Some tweaking of information organization and card attributes is needed, but for now the examples should roughly show what they are about.}

_{Note the Order number in the lower right-hand corner. Not all Legend cards have the same or any number, and some are outside the known range of 1 to 6 found Adventure cards. This is because certain Legends should have differing minor effects in how they are encountered if and mixed with other ordered game cards on a space. Such a combination would be rare, as by the Legend deck's draw mechanics, these cards should not come into play often... and only because a player has made it happen. The Dragon Tyrant needs to be quite dangerous, or its just nothing more than a strong dragon when encountered, hence its "0" order number. So if any Magic Object pops up on its space, you're going to have to get through him to get to it. And that's they way it should be in this case. Not all Legend cards would require an order number; such is only needed if the card is played on the board.}

_{Legend cards can be seen as something of a mix of an Enemy, Event, and/or Stranger rolled into one. They have a Reward section in place of the Activate section found on Special Ability cards. The reward has been roughly balance statistically (not off the cuff) against the level of challenge involved but without pushing the gain to a game unbalancing level. They are subject to adjustment with this in mind, but in keeping with the deck as whole and not just to make one card more profitable. Overall, they should not be just an opportunity for gains but be a brief game changer, as well as providing some random "story" elements.}

_{I have considered special rules where characters could "team up" briefly to face a Legend and take it out. That's accessory and I won't get into it right now.}

_{Task card type}

_{Task cards, as from the original Talisman Tasks alternative quest deck, are opportunites for characters to "work" to gain something extra. Again, the sample cards presented are only for examples and may not be ones that would be included in a proposed finally Tasks supplement pack. But most are rigged so that completing the task doesn't have a time requirement. Normal adventuring can usually proceed unimpeded, and the task can be completed as need. However, some task do have a time limit or a directive upon activity. Still, along the way, the character encounters the game environment and its opportunities normally.}

_{"Caravan Duty" is one that would fall between the lines. It does require you take a certain route, and the simple "seek" mechanic allows stopping easily at all required destinations. But along the way, the character adventures normally, but with a little extra risk to completing the task. And in this case, there is not risk of additional losses for not completeing it; there are only some gains for how successfully it is completed. And general play for that character attempting it proceeds rather normally.}

_{Like with a Special ability card, accepting a task is optional. When drawn, the player has the option to discard the task and not accept it... at least in all examples so far. I could see a rare task or two that might be require as indicated on a card, but that's and exception to deal with later, if and when.}

_{Final Note}

_{Other than the braid frame and talisman corners on the card back, all graphics for the template were created from scratch. I did give the template front something of a look related to the front of character cards. The Legends deck is in many ways linked to character cards more than anything else in the game and this visual take seemed appropriate. Illustrations were constructed from free stock, copyright free graphics, etc. and some elements from general non-paid advertising graphics. No work from a paid artist was knowingly used. The template remains my property and is not for reuse in part or whole.}

_{And that's what I have so far. At this point, feedback is needed in general and/or in any specifics. Seriously, before I decide if and how to proceed with this resurrected and reconsidered project. Thanks for taking the time with such a very long post.}

This looks rather impressive at first glance JC!

I will have a look through all of the cards however before I give my critique. I just wanted to start by saying that the graphics you have made are stunning! Well done!

LMFAO JC

What I had done was gathered all the powers of all the other characters. The list/cards are divided into Good, Neutral, Evil, Fighter, Magister, Sage, Faye and Curse. Of course Good, Neutral and Evil powers are unavailable to any alignment of character other than what they currently are.

The fighting master trained abilities of battle

The Magister master trained abilities of spells and Psychic

The Sage master trained abilities dealing with foretelling

The Faye, teach skills that deal with monsters and spaces and evasion.

You have to make it through the City (which was a board add-on) to be able to visit on of the masters and pull a card and pay for the ability.

Each ability ranged from 2 gold to 15 gold, curses being free. The city would have many required stops of exact die rolls to get powers. Lots of lost turns seems like a fair trade off to get some super powers.

If you want my list of how I divided them up into even categories, I'd be more than happy to. I can't believe you beat me to it. Garrrrrrr.

The alignment stacks are lesser, while the Master stacks are larger.

Hey danjr,

I only beat you because I already had all this stuff lying around in other projects... including the old "Addon Abillities" pack that I shelved. And you shouldn't let this stop you from completing your project; this wouldn't be the first... or last... time similar concepts been given different takes to produced variations of expansions by more than one developer. You never know... yours may appeal to players that don't like mine. KEEP AT IT!!!

I already have standard abilities analyzed from some 36 different characters. To this I added variations upon those, such as for the Woods Walk ability of the Elf I have Hills Walk, Plains Walk, etc. Same for the evasion ability like Woods Wiles for all other terrain types. There are also some new abilities in the list of at least 60 of them.

So I think I've already bitten off more than I can chew. Especially if an equal or greater number of other card types are to added to the deck in order to (1) tamp down and control the flow of additional abilities into the game and (2) keep some wide variety for what pops up from game to game.

And as peace offering if I stepped too hard on your toes, I'd be more than willing to help out with graphics as time permits.

No man..... I am so kidding. Your stuff is so far ahead of what I think I could pull off, so don't even worry about it. I have no problems giving any ideas I had on the idea to you. You are an excellent inspiration and talent to the Talisman community, we are blessed to have you, and others like you who have such a passion for this beloved game.

Well thank you, but as one point... my very first expansion, In the Balance 1.0, was a mess in retrospect. It just takes time for any of us to figure things out.

A few new wild notions were added to the Task and Legend sample galleries. I'm holding off on working out anymore Ability cards until some feedback is generated. I want to balance what I envision against notions and details from others before I bury myself in tangle any further.

After I get home from gaming I will post the stuff I have and do with it what you will.

the file I have is .xlr

I'd post it on the forums, but it'd probably go all catywonkas.

Do you want me to PM it or e-mail?

Sorry I forgot I said i'd do that.

Hey there, D. Its not really necessary, as I have a pile of stuff to work with already. I've also posted the same notion to couple of other minor places related to some test groups I've used for several years in my projects.

Overall, response has been rather lack-luster, and this may be a notion that just doesn't have much appeal to even the minority that use fan made materials. Or it could be that this edition of Talisman may be starting to wind down a little, as the last two editions did. It is inevitable with almost all games. Those same test groups are now playing other stuff more and more, and less Talisman. So I'm just going to sit on this notion for a while again. Maybe something will come of it later on or not. No sense any of us doing more work until it might be worth it.

Talisman has always been a niche game, and my expansions more so a niche unto themselves. The game is played a different way these days then back with 2E in my college days and the few of those players and groups I still interact with. And its possible I just don't have a feel for that vs. the way me and mine like to play our games. We too are playing other stuff more and more. Talisman has become our "intermission" game between others, and I'm not so sure this notion would change that for my group.

I really like the idea of the Special Ability cards, which are basically what "Master Level" characters used to be anyway, especially in the 3rd Edition.

I do wonder though if there are too many of them, which makes the choice rather confusing? Perhaps a smaller selection of common and powerful abilities might be the way forward in the first instance, with others added along the way as optional extras?

The Legends I already like from the earlier posts as they are like Warlock Quests, but more involved and more "quest-like".

I must reiterate that I am most impressed by the graphics work though... top job Mr H!

talismanisland said:

Yeah, I think you're right... especially if they are to be mixed with other types of cards. To really mix it up there should maybe be a 1:1:1 ratio... maybe. Or perhaps some of those tough Legends should be the low count, then a bit more on the tasks, and then low again on the abilities. That means a need to keep the abilities a little more rare that they appear to be right now. Time to reconsider... though I'll be buried a little bit in getting out the next set of CoA cards for Runebound.

talismanisland said:

Okay, good to know. And I assume the "seek" rule is lean and clean enough for play. I tried to make simple so that any of the Tasks (and some others) can be accomplished along the way without interfering with normal adventuring.

I am wondering if the Tasks are cutting it. They can be discarded like the abilities, but I'm not sure in their current state they would be used much considering the amount of freebie stuff and gold already dumped into the game by commercial expansions. They are the lighter side compared to the harshness of the Legend cards and the challenge and power of the abilities. That is something needed to keep the deck from being to overwhelming to access.

Time to call it a night for now and sleep on, then check in again at some of the other post locations.

Just a thought, but beyond being nice to look at, is there a particular reason that all of the card backs are different?

In the Warlock Quest and Treasure decks, where you would get to choose your card, they all have identical backs. I would have thought that they would have the same back, which would make the deck less "fussy".

Am I missing something?

An interesting new swing on Special Abilities. I must say I like it. It's definitely more "user friendly" than the previous approach. As I understand, the type of the top card in Legends deck has to match the game encounter to actually draw it. This should slow things down sufficiently. It won't be easy to go through the half of the deck in search for this perfect ability

I like the idea of the Legend cards. They should balance the potential Ability gains nicely, although... they are pretty nasty. Some of them anyway I can see a potential problem here. Some of the Legend drawing conditions are unique. If I saw "Legends - Any Draw Space" on the top of the deck I know I would think twice This might stop the drawing from Legends deck altogether. I think that there should be at least two (better yet three or four) cards for every drawing condition and some more powerful Special Abilities counterbalancing some of the nastier Legends. I would risk drawing "The Darkest Knight" if there was a chance to draw, oh... I don't know... my beloved "Life Leech" perhaps

I still have to go through the Task cards to say something constructive about them. I don't know if you gave us the link to dropbox gallery with Task cards and I just missed it, but if not I'll just go to the actual Talisman Tasks add-on

Oh, and the seek rule is golden. There is nothing more frustrating in the Talisman game than trying to get somewhere and rolling the wrong number a dozen times in the row

talismanisland said:

Yes, you must have completed a turn in a space or in facing a card that matches the card on top of Legend... I mean Tales deck. (It'll take me a little while to start editing those card backs.)

The card backs are the control and trigger mechanic, which Felis correctly identified. It makes it clear when and where the top card can be drawn, and thereby may even produce a little competition as to who can get to it first. Of course, there are some nasty surprises in there as well as those potent abilities.

NOTE: I'll be renaming the deck to "Talisman Tales" based on two suggestions from an off-forum reviewer:

1. There could be confusion between the deck as a whole and the one card type called "Legends."
2. There needs to be further tempering of potent good and bad of Abilities and Legends with something more minor and localized in effect.

I'm still uncertain of #2 but it might help further temper the Abilities flooding in and too many Legends overwhelming the game. Some notions were passed along to me as well. I will present demo cards sometime soon which will be called "Fortune" cards for the time being. If they are acceptable, I may even need some help coming up with more minor notions in the vein of story-like elements of incidents, both good, bad, and neutral even... which would need to be linked to appropriate cards or spaces.

Felis said:

Yes, the card back says when and where the top one can be draw. But not just match... but complete it successully. If you get your ass kicked by a Dragon when an Enemy-Dragon card is on the top, you don't get to draw it. This does two things:

1. Keeps a pummeled character from getting stomped by something even worse.
2. Keeps an unworthy character from drawing a related ability card it isn't yet worthy to have, let alone later activate.

And you're right, Felis. My last notion (which was partly to appease players wanting to "buy" abilities) was just unworkable... terrible. This mechanic is much better and the trigger is easy to understand based on what's happening to any individual character in the game. It requires no rolls or any such nonsense.

The notion of abilities cards linked to types of Enemies and encounters was suggested to me a while back, but I didn't pay attention cause I'd already shelved the whole thing. The original idea was to allow characters to draw from Strength, Craft, and Other decks (3 separate) for successfully defeating and enemy. It wasn't until discussion with danjr that something sparked and I thought of adding spaces as well to card backs... and then put them on the card backs and use only one deck with a built in automatic trigger for the draw. The project resurrected, though it's still tentative.

Hopefully between Jon's advice to concerning card counts and further tempering the severeness with some more light weight (and perhaps light hearted) cards, players might be a little more curious (and greedy) instead of fearful of the deck. We'll see how it goes, and all of your can tell me if it's closer to or further off the mark once I get some Fortune cards into a gallery. The ultimate goal for a starting deck would be to have perhaps one of each type of card with a matching back... perhaps leaving out a Legend card in some cases... so any card back seen could be dangerous, but odds are slightly not.

Felis said:

Yes, it's linked just below the subheading for that card type. Here are the gallery links again, just in case, plus one that is currently empty where I will place Fortune cards.

• Abilities
• Legends
• Tasks
• Fortunes

Remember that like "Ability" cards, "Task" cards do not have to be accepted. And like unactivated "Abitliies", you may discard a Task you don't want to take on. But unlike unactivated Abilities, which you can discard if you draw one you like more, once a Task card is accepted, you have to finish before you can take another.

So likely Tasks will be tempered. When second task is drawn by someone who has one (unfinished), the second task must be discarded. This drives rotation of the deck so new things come up for others to draw. At least that's the notion I have in mind, though it's open for review and suggestions.

Now... let's see if a cross response post will work in the forum this time. It hasn't been very successful in the past.

D'oh! as they say... sorry for being a bit thick, but I totally missed the section on setup! Carry on!

hee hee, it's okay. I'm long winded and people tend to zone a bit when I drone on.

A few minor "Fortune" cards are up, though they may not be the best possibilities. You all can tell me or even suggest some minor events and notions, good, bad, or neutral, for some flavor. When I have time, I will pump out some more of the other card types... not as what WILL be in some first stage deck but as what MIGHT be used to pick and choose for such, should any of this amount to something workable.

Felis, I'll have to re-do the calculations on that one ability you're eager for, but remember it could be a potent one.

OK, so I mentioned this particular ability more as a joke As much as I would love to see all the abilities from this thread in the "Legendary Tales" deck I know you are much better in balancing games than me and I would rather trust your judgment on this then mine (virtual cookie for anyone who knows where the name for the deck came from ).

You said that card may be drawn after successfully completing encounter. It makes sense in case of enemies but what if I loose a fight with brigand in the Forest or loose a Life in Chasm? Common sense tells me that Space effects shouldn't be treated as success or failure but maybe you have something else in mind.

I'll try to write something more constructive as soon as I get rid of this dreadful headache

No hurries and sorry about the headache. So far there hasn't been time for me to really streamline rules for good discussion. Essentially if you complete a turn on a space... with a space based card on top the deck that matches your space... you can draw that card as the last step of your turn. That means that non-draw spaces always give you access to a matching card on top the deck.

If you encountered an enemy on a draw space or elsewhere, you must defeat that Enemy to draw that top enemy based card. As mentioned, this isn't just to make characters / players earn the right to that card, it is also to protect them from a potential double-whammy. Does that make sense, or do you think another approach is better? I really do need to write up proposed rules in much clearer fashion than I have so they have actual clear points to discuss and modify if needed.

Again, no hurry, and wait you feel like yourself again.

Felis said:

Would it be from a Rhapsody album perchance? I would have expected that from Kufir!

A possible problem was noted by another outside reviewer....

Problem: Where certain cards have a back for a space that only occurs once on the board (Forest, etc.), access to the Tales deck becomes stalled until someone can hit that one space by random movement. It was suggested that cards should not have backs for such spaces, or the game's "tales" might not easily continue by player choice to draw from the deck.

It's definitely an issue, though in some cases for non-draw spaces like the Village, City, etc., it would be nice to have some things happen there for diversity of flavor.

Possible solution: Put all such single space cards that have a specific location for their event into the "Any Non-Draw Space" or "Any Draw Space" category as applicable, then put a brief instruction on the card for where it is to be placed for the first character to reach it. There are a few that operate this way already.

The downside is that more cards (not a lot) would end up on the board, possibly at the same time. I've begun adjusting a few to have Order Numbers just in case other cards end up on those spaces. There is also the issue that such cards are often Tasks or Forutnes, which would then not be encountered directly as often by the one who drew them.

Thoughts or suggestions please?

There are new cards in the galleries, and some even exemplify this problem. No new abilities as yet, as I'm reworking some calculations for those.

To be honest JC, I don't see it as any more stalled than say waiting for a specific Adventure card to come up.

If the Forest is being sought then it should not take that long to get there from anywhere. The game goes on in the mean time and there is plenty enough going on in a standard game before you add in side quests and the like.

It's a bit like those players who sigh when they draw a specific character at the start of the game or whatever. That is how the game is to play out, so go with it. If Talisman was 100% balanced and fair, then it wouldn't be Talisman!

Okay, all valid points, Jon. I may try to temper it a little and not have too many of those single space Tales cards, but I won't worry about it much. And you're right by implication; the Tales cards are supposed to the secondary to getting on with the main game. More later... as I try to get back to some more Abilities cards. Then soon enough there will be a selection from which to pick an choose for a first, best overall package.

Question: What does anyone think about using Strangers and or Places as draw triggers for some cards? Places might be questionable, but on some Tasks, perhaps Strangers would a source of "rumors" for work available... or even revealing that Legend has popped up in the Land. Downside is that Strangers are far less probably for a draw than an Enemy.

I like that idea, as it is another way to use the Legends/Tales/Legendary Tales deck out of its normal sequence.

A separate deck for Stranger encounters could be made which you can access in addition to the Space encounters.