Too many people consider a Chaplain to be simply an upgrade to killyness, rather than an exchange for some killyness for some spiritual skills, knowledges and a bit of leadership. I think that's always been the main issue.

It's the flaw that exists with most RPGs, that people will go "what will make my character more killy?" rather than the background, the setting, and the personality and, well, character of their character.

MILLANDSON said:

Except in DW trying to become even more killy should be part of the character of every PC. :-)

Alex

And you're not going to achieve it by diluting the character's initial role as an all-out close combat specialist, by re-specialising to what is essentially a psychiatrist!

Siranui said:

A psychiatrist? Pffft! You mean more like a mad cult fanatic.

Seriously, he may be a spiritual guide but he's also a Space Marine. And I think part of his inspiring people has to do with having some battle prowess. Chaplains are psychiatrists for the sake of psychiatry only. They are supposed to be formidable warriors at the same time and I see them more in a close combat support role. Others may differ.

Alex

No matter how much a player is going to exploit the system, GM can always trump it, either by increasing the odds or making things more difficult to the players. It is not an open roll contest, or a contest on who has the most broken munchkinism ridden character ever. For me it is enough if character classes are on a more or less equall ground without any one being particularly overpowered, when compared to others. Competative rationale does not work within a "normal" rpg group, as rpgs are (hopefully) not designed to support that. Therefore the reason for munchkin behaviour in a normal noncompetative, not infected with MMORPGs thought and behavioural patterns group environment is beyond my understanding. It does not matter if you can kill 20 genestealers singlehandedly, if you are not supposed to defeat them, you will encounter 21. It does not matter if you can kill 5, while other group members can kill either 4 or 6, it might matter if they can kill only 1 though.

I think a full chaplain should get (oder be able to choose) a special ability to reduce the corruption and/or insanity he and the other battle-brothers get.
Because in my oppion that is just what's his job. To care for the mental and moral well-being of his chapter/kill team.

So I would give hin the choice between fearsome presence and another ability with which he reduces every insenity or corruption gain by 1 point automatic or by up to half if he activly does something (like hold a sermon) and rolls a successful command check with a penalty of 10 for every additional point of insanity or corruption he wants to negate.

Example: The killteam encounters a chaos shrine with dead bodies forming unholy symbols. The GM decides that looking at those symbols gives every battle brother 6 corruption points.
Just for being with them the chaplain negates 1 point. But he could negate up to 2 additional points (for 3 total which is the half of 6).
If he manages a command check with -20 he negates all 3 points. He could choose to just negate 2 points with a -10 command check if for some reason wants to.

I would give the chaplain the fearless talent no matter which special ability he takes. So it's just more cohesion vs. less corruption/insanity

Corruption and insanity control does sound like a very true to the background and a very nice idea, i will think of incorporating something like that

What I'm wondering is where you get the notion of the angry marine from?
While it's right that the chaplain is filled with hate and inspires fear in his enemies I can't find references to them going berserk in combat.

I rather see them as cold calculating hatefilled fanatics who use fear and hate to make others do what they want.
As, in my oppinion, single hard strikes are what defines the chaplain's fighting style I would make the following changes to your chaplain career:

• Rank 1: Add Crushing Blow
• Rank 2: Furious assault > Macemaster (Blademaster for the crozius)
  Add Wall of Steel
• Rank 3: Berserk Charge > Crippling strike
  Peer (Astartes) > Disturbing voice
• Rank 4: Good Reputation > Lightning reflexes
• Rank 8: Crippling strike > Hammer blow
  Crushing Blow > Combat master

X > Y means exchange X with Y

No other specialty gets peer or good rep talents, as far as i've seen. And as I did't want to just add things they were the first talents to be removed.

Umbranus said:

Well, there isn't even consensus here that Chaplains are more close combat-oriented than shooting. Also I like tkis set-up better. Single hard blows are inferior in 40K Roleplay.

Alex

Umbranus said:

Tabletop chaplains enhance charges, charges are not really claculated cold approach to combat, Hatred and Litany of Hate also do not sound to me like calculated cold thing as well, rather like to do everything you can to hit the thing you hate. So i prefer the all out attack and charge approach to flourish and finesse. As for the good reputation, like most other advances it is taken directly from the FFG version of chaplain. I tried to stay close to it as much as possible, while making it into a workable full fledged specialty, as an alternative to tactical. i also tried to not simulate or mirror the assault marine, if one strives for controlled combat, than either the general advances or an assault marine is the way to go (most talents you mentioned are on the general list anyway, so it is possible to do a combat finesse chaplain, by just taking the social skills from his list, and the necessary combat ones from the general). As you might have noticed the iteration 06 had much more melee advances, however i scrapped all those for balance reasons and in order to give the chaplain a unique specialty feel instead of making him into a subpar assault with some additional abilities.

ak-73 said:

Which doesn't mean that single-blow talents should be written out because something else is mechanically better, of course.

tkis said:

make it a 03 i mixed it with a different document i was working on

Siranui said:

Until you'd ask yourself why a hardened veteran as a chaplain would prefer techniques that are quite obviously inferior in the game world. Now if you can make single hard blows equal to multiple medium damage blows, I think you got a point.

Alex

It's not hard to see places where the armour of a target might require a single hard hit to overcome it's various damage reductions. In such a case, it'll be about doing any damage at all, versus a dozen hits, none of which get through the armour/toughness.

ak-73 said:

So from praising the joys of Combat Formation and defending some weak talents on the Dev list, you've now shifted to thinking that every list should be optimised, because that's what the PCs would do...?

tkis said:

As my first Idea to this point seemed too strong compared to the apo ability that reduces corruption I found something else that seems fitting.
In the DH book BoM there are some services the Ecclesiarchy has to offer and rules for clerics who want to perform those services.

With the possible exception of sanctifying a weapon (for permanent sanctified melee weapons) I would allow that for the chaplain as a special ability.
If he (or the battlebrother he performs it for) has to pay requisition for the materials or not is certainly up to the GM.

With that he can, for example, perform a baptism for another marine, reducing his next gain of corruption by 1 (No mentioning of a minimum of 1 remaining)
And while the service rendered is rare it only costs a DH Cleric 10 thrones, so it should be free for one of the deathwatch. There are other more expensive powers but I will not quote more of it.

I'd consider lifting the APO ability wholesale, to be honest.

And having an alternative one that applies to Insanity?

I will look into all the suggestions guys, and thanks for the discussion, just a bit busy now to finalise everything

Right now i am considering giving the chaplain a choice between two different abilities: First is "Oath Keeper: In a preparational Rite before a mission, the chaplain is able to bestow purity seals upon his battle brothers, letting each bearer of a seal swear a personal oath, to uphold during a mission, once per session the bearer of a purity seal may trigger the seals oath like triggering a demeanor, this works only if the bearer of the seal is in solo mode" , second ability is "Spiritual Guide: the ministrations and spiritual guidance of the Chaplain means, that any Space Marine in a kill team that includes the Chaplain reduces all Insanity Points he suffers by 2 (to a minimum of 1), as long as he confesses his spiritual turmoil to the chaplain or recieves inspirational reassurance from him"

Siranui said:

You haven't understood my argument: the Devastators as is can fulfill their battlefield role effectively. Sure my PC would probably more efficient if I had taken Unrelenting Devastation. But since that is to be expected I was inclined to probe another approach and I think a Crimson Fist with Immovable Warrior and Stalwart Defence works quite well. Not as good as other builds but okay.

Now for the Chaplain, he isn't the uiltimate melee specialist. I see him in a melee support role, both spiritually (as providing fearsome melee buffs) and physically (being a good melee fighter but not as good as an Assault specialist). So I would rather give him swift strike early on.

Alex

Whereas I feel that the single big attack talents are far more 'Chaplain-like' for feel, and mesh well with charging.

I like the idea of the purity seal. Although frankly I like it to the point where I'd steal the idea, give them to players with a line of text that sums them up ['suffer not the witch to live'] kinda thing, and make them permanent once-per-mission specific demenours. That way I can dish them out as rewards, and tie their usefulness to the words that they bear.

I like the purity seal ability but maybe chance the insanity one to surpressing primarch curse with added benefits if they are of the same chapter like a Blood Angel Chaplain helping a battle brother who is slowly falling into the black rage more so then if that chaplain is say from the Ultramarine chapter.