In the DW core book under selection and initiation, it talks about recruiting hive gangs and putting them through the initial tests. I was thinking this might be a fun way to start the game as a Scum career from DH, and then go through the trials of becoming a space marine. I had dug through the forums a bit to see if this topic has come up, and could not find it, so if it has I appologize ahead of time. Has anyone considered this idea befor, and what are your thoughts on it?

Nah: I want to get straight to the propa' killin'!

Seriously; don't Astartes start at 14 at the oldest? I don't really fancy playing 'violent young male teenager, the roleplaying game'

Siranui said:

Ya I thought they started young too, so I was surprised by that part of the book. I guess they only take the youngest gangers, but some chapters might not be so picky, like the Black Templars perhaps since they seem to have a more aggressive recruitment.

Well I'd have to say no, since Space Marines target youths between the ages of 9 and 12 for induction. This is because of when the implants of phase one through five can be done by the time they are 12 years old, with one through three being done between 10 and 14 years old.

For more information on this you should see http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine this site is an excelent sorce for anything to do with the 40k universe, and it is extreamly handy if you do not have on hand all index white dwarf mags with all the information in it. Or if you lack all the codices.

Actually, it's more of a general range of 10-16 which a space marine can be innitated. I've seen as late as 18 for an innitate in a rare cirucmstance.

Most Space marine books that start off iwth somenoe turning into a space marine (In Space Wolf I'd say Ragnar was around 14 years old, and Lex from Space Marine was about 15, who actually was recruited from Necromunda gang.). The innitate in the first Blood Raven book was old enough to be an Imperial Guardsman.

So I think it varies on circumstance.

Lex has the same information that I see on page 14, talking about recruiting from gangs and feral worlds. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine#Organization So there is a bit of conflict.

The key here is the word IDEALLY. Most would prefer to do it at the listed ages as it is safer, easier, more likely to take effect and not be rejected.

But it also says they like to take the best, most ruthless warriors a world has, something I doubt a lot of 10 year olds have claim to. I would assume that at the younger ages (10 and what not) they are selected, as in they are noted by the observing marines in charge of recruitment and watched. And it is possible the recieve various drugs and chemicals to help them along the way at young ages (similar to what the Blood Gorgons did to the tribesmen in the novel Flesh and Iron) to see which ones are more resistant and so forth (preparing them for future implants, chemical alterations and hypno therapy).

Older recruits would be more likely to reject the implants and changes, but could indeed survive them. The Marine in the comic series Boom! studios about the Black templars looked to be in his late teens/early 20s when he was selected for Neophyte status.

read book "Space Marine" by Watson

DW Space Marine said:

Everyone keeps telling me that anything written there should be ignored

Nimon said:

I think this could be an interesting take on it. It could take a some work to get the cruch to flow properly (unless the whole group was essentially starting with a given number of XP as starting DH characters or the like), but as a concept fluffwise I think it totally works. To me, the human background of a space marine can really contribute a lot to the character's personality. Always remember these are PC's were talking about here too, so if anyone was going to accept the implants etc. at a later age, it would be them.

And remember when looking at the lexicanum it says, as Peacekeeper points out, 'ideally.'

Given that my previous attempt at injecting some "Ian Watson - Space Marine" based humour into these boards sunk like a lead ballon, I'll restrict my comments appropriately.

It's worth noting that the speed of natural selection is vastly dependent on the strength of selection pressure. In an absurdly lethal environment in which youngsters are continually and violently competing for resources, which has existed for around 10,000 years, the average 10-14 year old is likely to be far more mature than those seen in today's society.

Danger of premature death through violent or incidental means, typically causes a lifeform to evolve towards earlier reproduction and lower longetivity. However, at the same time, puberty at least in girls is retarded by poor nutrition as oestrogen and other female hormones are fat-soluble and are more persistent.

Another thing is that in the fluff it's always done in standard years. and we have no way of knowing for sure that standard years are the same as terran years, and indeed given the amount of information lost combined with 'Horus Rising' we have no way of really knowing that terran years are the same as present day Earth 's years. Both seem extremely likely to be true, but might not necessarily be true.

for example if the mechanicum based on Mars do all the science and technology and stuff maybe they use a Martian year as standard... in which case 14 suddenly becomes ~25.

I'm pretty sure they don't use an exactly Gregorian Calendar because in Eisenhorn there are things which sound like months in context but aren't months we know.

[edit] heck at some point during it's history of pollution Earth could have been artificially moved into a higher orbit to cool it down or some such rubbish. this would result in a longer year in accordance with (I think) kepler's first law of planetary motion [/edit]

The main problem I see with the idea is that a young ganger to be chosen as SM would already have some skills and talents, some of which will not be selectable as Marine.

I say go for it. A real solid campaign can be built from this premise. I've thought about doing something similar for a Space Wolves campaign, with my players making young men from Fenris and ending as long-fanged Space Wolf elders.

The Red Scorpions recruit from birth. On their homeworld, the stone age inhabitants leave their newborn children in an ancient ruined temple overnight, and if the Red Scorpions deem the child genetically compatible with the implants, they take it.

Conversely, in Prospero Burns, one of the Space Wolves was recruited as an adult. (Though as stated above, what counts as an "adult" will vary from culture to culture. They probably grow up quick on Fenris!)

Umbranus said:

The hypno-indoctrination could overwrite these skills. I don't see that as a problem. It's the force of will and innate drive to survive that the space marines are looking for, at least in my view.

As for Prospero Burns, I guessed the recruit was in the 16-18 range, at the very top end of acceptability. Then again, the Space Wolves are know for not caring if an older recruit dies in the process.

I seem to recall in the Space Wolves background that when Leman Russ joined his legion, and they started recruiting from Fenris, his bondsman/huscarls or something similar asked to be raised up to Space Marines to stay with him. Initially the Emperor said no, because they could not be fully changed to Space Marines and that the procedure would most likely kill all but half a dozen of the 300 bondsman/huscarls or something similar. The bondsman/huscarls or something similar said they would take the risk. The Emperor performed the surgery and much to his suprise 17 survived.

Back in the Crusade days raising an adult to an Astartes seems possible. See also Luther of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves in the story above.

The Emperor always performed these surgeries in the old stories, but it was still a slim chance of survival (normally ~2%).

In the Deathwatch core book it says that the Black Carapace has to be impanted before the recipient is over 18.

For as long as I can remember the implants have always been for young teenagers because the implants work in combination with the natural growth cycle of people.

The above is just going on memory. That is why I am fussy on the details.

I would say that making an adult into a space marine in the current timeline is possible, but the implants will be less effective and no black carapace unless under 18. Also that 18+ would be an incredibly rare event in the current timeline.

Charmander said:

I don't understand why. It's an excellently written book. I like the modern authors, but Space Marine by Watson was epic in how it was written.

Actually, not quite an Astartes. Luther actually seems a bit jealous of that fact in the books. And some Astartes in other chapters are of the important members of a legion who aren't.

That said, they certainly seem to be able to get some sorts of enhancements that make them roughly equivalent.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I was thinking that too, but if you started a campaign off to build the background and played a bit as a scum, it would be nice to keep the experiences earned and fought for depending on how long you played for (one session maybe just make it a prequel, but for a few sessions it could be a fun part of creating the character's background as opposed ot just writing it down); of course you need to make sure the whole group is treated fairly, but shouldn't be an issue.

The only one i can think of that has been made an astarte after 18 years is Maggard from the Horus Heresy series. From what i remember he looked like a freak since his grown body was not ideal for the "development" this late. I need to double check this though.

The Current age limits on Astartes recruitment could be a result of Guilliman's Codex Astartes, as he tried to make a Chapter’s recruitment and Gene Seed more Stable, In the wake of the Heresy.
Though that’s just speculation on my part, But i always got the feeling that Astartes could recruit from a much larger age range.

Immortal said:

This is an easy piece of canon to diverge from. Many of the stories make much more sense if Space Marines are not recruited until sometime after 20 years of age. Unfortunately, the Deathwatch RPG does nothing to take into account any skills that may have been learned prior to beoming a Space Marine, so that requires some work.

Charmander said:

Ya, that is kinda where I was going with this. Would be fun to actually play out the backgrounds and what-not. I guess the big draw back is that they would all have to be of the same chapter. I am just about to finish my run as a GM in my current campaign, but I think this would be good thing to put together in the future.

Nimon said:

Oh what fun! Lets all play sociopathic tweens!

In one of the Dawn of War or Dawn of War II books, the Blood Ravens took an Imperial Guardsman and began implantations. Maybe I'm crazy in thinking this, but if you're tapped to go out to war with the Imperial Guard, I'm thinking you're at least 18. The Guardsman survived, but had some mutations.

It was kind of neat to see this issue addressed head-on, with them saying, yes, we want young ones, but we're getting short-handed, so let's see if this works...