WhiteLycan said:

I've read this portion of the book and to be honest it makes little sense to me. Space marines can use weapons scaled for them but also weapons not scaled for them without penalties? Its just illogical.

I've simply replaced it with so that Astates weapons are scaled for hulking users. If you are hulking, you can use these weapons, with no penalties. On the other hand, you will receive the -30 penalty to use normal weapons. This rule make any power armor other than light a while lot less attractive than before as now you will have to upgrade your armory instead of just your armor. And while I do make available Astates weapons, they are at best extremely rare going all the way to unique.

Anyway besides buying Astates weapons, there is another source of them - take them back from the traitor legions for purification. That method can be rather painful but its a legitimate and respectable way to get these weapons. If you donate a cache of chaos space marine gear to say the Storm Wardens (preferably full of bolter holes , they might even help you with the purification as a sign of respect for fellow warriors.

Hantheman said:

That said, when you can use an MIU to shoot a weapon with the same level of accuracy as your hand, then you can also use it to move an artificial limb, or more. All just a question of training and experience. It already works like this as per the RAW, and even though it is undoubtedly abstracted and not very realistic in comparison to how long it would take to develop a sufficient level of control, I'm not sure one should make a difference here.

Or rather, if I were the GM, I'd probably demand training for any MIU, regardless of whether it's used on a weapon or suit of armour. A good deal of downtime between missions would suffice, otherwise one could always rule for temporary penalties to BS, WS, Speed or Agility, depending on what exactly the character is using, and for as long as you think it would take. Compared to what the game allows elsewhere, there's probably no reason to be too hard on the players, but such a drastic modification should feel like a change, at least in a passing manner.

Hantheman said:

-30 also reads like a stupidly high penalty implemented just for its own sake. Whilst Astartes equipment is quite heavy (due to being armoured itself), this should not concern someone using powered armour, and whilst grip size may be inconvenient depending on the size of your hands, this is nothing that could not be modified, nor should it have a penalty that is higher than if you'd lack any experience with that weapon at all, or would fire it using your off-hand.

Your houserule sounds good, though I'd extend it to light power armour as well (on the interpretation that any sort of powered armour would increase one's grip, and because fluff mentioned compatible/identical weapon patterns between Astartes and non-Astartes).

In fact, another option would be to have a -10 or -20 penalty that could be off-set by either a powered armour's Autostabilization trait or the Bulging Biceps talent, regardless of the character's size. Height doesn't necessarily determine hand size, after all. Just an idea, though.

Yep precisely, my take on why Marines (or even Sisters) are so much better than an ordinary bloke (an IG trooper for example) is the amount of training. Reading the fluff, it seems a Marine takes at least 5-6 years to receive their implants, I'm not sure how long their training in total is, but I'd say minimum of 10 years of exclusive training. A Sister, Commisar or an Arbites is probably trained just as long, just without implants but with indoctination in the Imperial creed instead.

All human RT characters are commanders in charge of a specific area at minimum - I cannot see them sparing the time on this level training. To me a Marine is a superior warrior not because of this weapons, but because of he is a Marine (which means he survived his training).

The reason I did not include Light power armor is that does not actually increase your size. This means that the weapon while it can be carried will be off balanced and unwieldy. Grips and stocks will be too large, triggers and sights will be out of position, center of balance for the weapon is simply off due to shortened length to the joints, shooting recoil and reverbrations from hitting something in melee is not absorbed by the body well due to insufficient mass, etc. If you have ever used an item customized for some one else (a weapon or a sports item like a bowling ball) you will get the idea. It isn't just the hand size that is an issue, its the body as a whole. Its a house rule anyway so do what ever you like with it anyway.

Your example of using a bionic hand is a good example. However, unlike a bionic hand, power armor systems are an addition rather than a replacement. Which means it is not reapplied learning but a fresh new skill. A baby is born with legs, but is unable to walk - but will learn to in maybe a year or two - and by 6 or so will be able to run enough to be a nuisance .

Hantheman said:

Well, RT characters may not focus as much on training (as they have plenty of other stuff to do), but still they will undoubtedly gather much experience, and they are meant to be veterans when the game starts - so whilst their training would take longer (or rather incorporate more practical experience and "lessons learned in the field" than just years of learning in some camp), I generally concur. The Arch-Militant's description in particular reads a lot like it, too.

Hantheman said:

I see your point; my reasoning was just that we have non-hulking Marine Scouts using Astartes bolters without power armour - leading me to believe that there would be little change in terms of handling the gear. It would depend on the individual person, anyways - there can be 7 feet normal humans (Space Marine size) just as there can be 5 feet ones. As you said, there's a lot of ways to approach this.

Hantheman said:

In case of Black Carapace / MIUs, shouldn't there be some "compatibility", though, given that it's the same nerve pathways emitting the same signals? I definitively agree about a learning phase, though, if only because it would require a large amount of calibration for the machine parts to react properly to the human, and maybe the human will have to "adapt" a little as well. Perhaps it is a mixture between the two extremes.

Normal power armour definitively takes some time to get used to as well. There has been some Sororitas fluff about the Angel-armour using a series of delicate pressure sensors on the inside, and that whilst the armour could be worn by anyone, calibration is required.

Lynata said:

There's a bandwidth/timing issue. MIU requires that you think the actions you want to have happen, which are then sent to the device. Fine for a door or cogitator, less good in the case of armour that's trying to follow your body movements. Black carapace removes that layer of abstraction; user plugs directly into the suit, suit is now part of the nervous system and responds accordingly.

Errant said:

Aren't these just two ways to achieve the same effect, though? MIU is a device reading brain waves, Black Carapace is a device reading nervous system, both are artificial objects transmitting signals to the armour. The only difference is that one taps into the spinal cord whereas the other taps into the brain. They are both still layers of abstraction - or both are not, depending on how you interpret their "fusion" with the user's body.

Also, I take the fluff mentioning MIUs as "the only viable alternative to the Space Marines' Black Carapace" to mean they are at least somewhat equal.

And in terms of the P&P rules, MIUs also seem to be good enough to use for weapons or even remote servitors.

Actually, how do Tech-Priest Mechadendrites work? They should have to respond to their owner's command with a fair amount of speed and accuracy, too, wouldn't they? Or bionic prosthesis?

Mechadrites probably works on the same principle as the black carapace (no fluff to back this up but so I'm just guessing). You do not think to your hand to get it to move for example. MIU interface would prob allow you to use devices that automatically detect your biosystem's feedback to work, but will require an action (maybe half for simpler functions) to activate/deactivate the function.

MIU allows you to use the armor - the black carapace allow it to become part of you, Oneness between man and armor.

Hantheman said:

Ah! I think I now understand the reason for why we seemed to talk past each other for a moment. You are assuming that an MIU-user would have to specifically concentrate on using an MIU-connected machine (which is indeed the normal way MIUs are used) - whereas I think that an MIU could just as well alternatively be set up to "copy" the user's normal biofeed employed to move a limb, and then use this command to move the respective piece of armour accordingly. It is, after all the same means of conveying one's will to the appropriate muscles.

Of course, all that is just theory/conjecture. I'd probably have to read up more on how this works in real life (even though RL science may not necessarily apply to 40k) to delve further into the subject.

Either way, an MIU could not be mentioned as an alternative a Black Carapace if it would end up making power armour usage even more unintuitive than with standard sensors. And then we have artificial limbs and Mechadendrites that have to be controlled somehow as well... How likely is it that this sort of technology would "overlap" somewhere? Both should be readily available to Rogue Traders, I think.

As Errant mentioned, there will probably be some interface problems. A MIU probably cannot directly interface with a device designed for a direct spinal tap. A intermediary device to translate input/output between the 2 devices will be needed (sort of like an operating system allows you to use your harddisk, cpu and monitor as a computer, other wise its just a bunch of high tech junk you can't communicate with).

Also a MIU connection can be dangerous if the machine spirit of the device is strong. A titan's can in fact take over the entire will of it's Princeps. Be careful of what you plug your brain into.

Hantheman said:

Hantheman said:

Also, in case of a Titan, the machine spirit (i.e. onboard computer) is likely more sophisticated than a suit of power armour - apart from a Titan's pilot also being subjected to much more "input" from the machine, whereas a wearer of power armour only requires a one way connection (he still gets normal visuals and acustics through his helmet, and touch-based senses by having all his limbs and digit move simultaneously with the armour anyways) to relay his will, without actually receiving any feedback.

Well, unless you want feedback from the suit. I could certainly see a danger like the one you mentioned the closer the wearer "fuses" with the machine.

Lynata said:

Getting the SM equivalent grade PA made would definitely be out of the realm of acquisition and in the realm of serious role playing - the Emperor (God, the Omnissiah) himself arranged for this pattern of power armor to be made (probably exclusively) for his Astartes legions - how you are going to commission the Mechanicus to make this for you is going to be quite a challenge. Claiming SM power armor from (a most likely dead body of) a renegade Space Marine and modifying it is more likely (not all renegade space marines worship chaos in case you fear corruption). To be honest, buying a battleship would probably be easier.

I believe Titans taking over their user is from Epic, not sure if its mentioned in Epic Armageddon. Anyway for a weaker (comparatively) machine spirit like a power armor, this assertion might take place as tentative probes to assert control when you do something it doesn't like (something un-space-mariney) rather an overwhelming rush the moment you plug in. It might fight you for example when you retreat, trying to force you to stay and fight for example.

Hantheman said:

That said, such marvelous suits would very likely be customized items built specifically to fit the wishes of their buyer - which is something the respective Rogue Trader may wish for, anyways, if he already invests such a large sum of resources into acquiring one. So, yes, I would recommend doing some roleplaying here - but only because I think this would be a special and important item for the player, not because it would strike me as something that is in any way comparable to launching a capital ship.

Hantheman said:

Unless it has been corrupted by a daemonic presence, of course ... the armour worn by CSMs sounds very creepy!

I personally interpret the Blackskin as a far more comprehensive unit than the MIU, designed with the explicit purpose of interacting with a suit of Astartes power armour. This is backed up by the rules for Space Marine augmetics in Deathwatch, in which the Blackskin negates the penalties for being Hulking. That said, I also require that someone wanting to MIU-link to their starship acquire a unique form of MIU with expanded senselinks, just to handle the raw amount of data being sent, so MIU sense-links aren't the be-all and end-all of neural connectivity in my games. Mechadendrites are a bit weird; I believe they're spliced directly into the spinal column, undertaking various rituals and catechisms to learn to control the blessed arms.

Actually from my understanding, Astartes armor is not custom made for the user, it is the user that is custom built for the armor. The ability to manufacture new sets of armor is pretty limited; to the point that the mechanicus has problems manufacturing a million sets of mk 8 power armor which is a slight improvement over mk7 - so far only SM leaders have been given assigned them. Due to this low rate of manufacture, SM recruits are recruited within a certain set of physical parameters, and if they survive the SM training, they are assigned a set of armor from a fallen SM or cobbled together from various fallen SMs. It is this precisely because of the inability to manufacture in mass quantities that makes getting yourself a brand new customized set of armor a problem. The mechanicus as it is cannot meet existing demand. (There is another group of people that makes power armor - Marine Techmarines - specifically they make Artificer Armor - though its gonna be pretty hard to get one to make you a set.) Honestly, however looking at what you get from the SM advanced armor, I pretty much don't think its worth the effort. A lot of this the bonus can be gotten through gear upgrades, and bionics. The 2 are A Giant Among Men, which would rule even a MIU cannot replicate without training for at least 10 years; and Nutrient Recycling, which only extends your time in the field.

In FFG rules in Blood of Martyrs (DH was almost fully written by GW then licensed to FFG just before print, not sure about BoM.), SoB armor is actually a militarized light power armor (in GW terms all power armor from SM mk1-8, light, heavy with the exception of artificer, is a 3+ save). SoB is much much more available though as there are A LOT more SoBs than SMs. It doesn't have anything special in the armor except a military power source; the helmet has the equivilent of Advanced Integrated Helmet systems.

Anyway, now that I've gone tru the various power armor rules in more detail, the "civilian" power armor is looking much more attractive. Even at Best craftsmanship, you are looking at -100 acquisition (but still acquirable). Then go for an advanced helmets system, a SOB military power supply, then bionics like subskin armor etc

As for the machine spirit it seems to grow with age, so it will prob be more of an issue if you salvage a set of armor as opposed to building a new set. Also it depends on the builder and the quality of the item, a customized item will probably have a stronger spirit than an off the rack item.

One more thing, Rogue Traders have 1 extremely powerful advantage over almost every other Imperial organization. They CAN interact with Xenos, and they CAN use Xenos gear openly within certain limits (especially if they are war trophies). If Imperium gear is too hard to get, go kill a few Xenos and stock up on their gear - then use that gear to kill more Xenos (Yarrick did just that and he's a commissar - a rogue trader can easily justify at least use of personal Xenos gear.)

Even Inquisitors and Space Marines do not have the ability to use Xenos gear openly without being branded radicals at best, heretic at worst (They can use them secretly but that's another point). Sisters of Battle won't even consider it.

The 2nd advantage a Rogue Trader has is cash flow. If something is too hard to get through one channel, try another. Space Marines are limited to what they can requisition - they do not make most of their stuff. Even Inquisitors have to requisition a lot of their stuff as they do not have the right to buy a lot of things, eg starships, a personal army, etc.

I do not know if we should try to understand to much of WH40k technology. This is a system that pleasantly shocks our logical and inquisitive minds and happily makes the most amazing technology avaliable if it is cool and then just as happily decides to use threadmills to haul ammo. The machine spirit is in fact magical, not in the sorcerous sense, but in the English sense. It is uncomprehensible and alive, aquiring its own quirks and personalities as it goes through its life cycle. We compare it often with Earthdawn, where items got their power from their history and users. This is the way in WH40k as well. And space marine armour worn by countless battle brothers before now and with battle honours that would make the envy of a British Guard regiment just has so much more history and power then a new just made up suit that still has to prove itself. Every suit of power armour we have encountered so far even has an individual name and its quirks.

The question of power supply is, just as how it interfaces with a basic human body, more then one of technological considerations. All space marine armour is crafted with a purpose, and it will react to that. The machine spirit of armour made for the Astartes will groan under the humiliation of being worn by a mere mortal, however brave and powerful he or she might be. This is about as rational as the idea that only nobility is fit to lead men into battle, but hell, this is no rational world. Even the best space marine power supply will get unruly if it is not carried by one worthy of its great past.

That being said, I would proceed a bit as in Earthdawn, even if the mechanics are probably hard to work out. As the deeds of the bearer grow, the armour 'grows' with him. Or possibly revolts if the bearer is unworthy. If a Rogue Trader conquers new worlds for the God-Emperor and slaughters Xenos by the thousands, the armour will feel the deeds that will now be part of its history are worthy and function smoothly without a hitch. If the Rogue Trader constantly allies with Eldar and rises on their wings as the princes of Moscow did on their close ties with the Golden Horde, it will develop its quirks, malfunction and become less then reliable.

This is not much of a practical comment, I do realise that. But I like not being too practical in this game, as asking too much questions is really not good for the suspention of disbelief.

'Blessed is the Mind too Small for Doubt'

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

Hantheman said:

OUTSIDE the Imperium, Rogue Traders have no practical restrictions on who they may trade with, save that it benefits the Imperium.

OUTSIDE the Imperium, there is nobody to gainsay the use of xeno weaponry.

This does not mean that a Rogue Trader has carte blanche; consider the Xenophilous Past History for a starship. By taking it, you draw the interest of the Ordo Xenos, a group fully prepared and equipped to do away with a Rogue Trader believing he can deal freely in the Cold Trade or lay claim to powerful, unsanctioned xenogen artifacts.

Errant said:

It is one of a Rogue Trader's primary duties to deal with Xenos to access their threat level to the Imperium. Deal of cos can mean interact or skirmish. If someone can prove that a Rogue Trader is failing in this duty the Trader's warrant is going to be in peril.

Yet even within the Imperium there are powerful respected individuals who do blatently use Xenos equipment. Commissar Yarrick as stated before uses an Ork Power Klaw, Aoife Armengarde from The Edge of the Abyss uses an Eldar Powersword, Madam Charlabelle from Lure of the Expanse uses a Harlequin's Kiss. In addition, Madam Charlabelle, Krawkin Feckward, every starting navigator and seneschal uses Xeno-mesh. Even a Xenophilous history for a ship only draws the attention of Ordo Xenos - any other ship owner (chartist, navy, marine) will at minimum see the confistication and destruction of the ship at worst be deemed heretic.

The trick here is influence. An inquisitor, a planetary governor, a rogue trader each has his own very different sphere of authority. Anyone who wants to use Xenos gear blatantly and smartly, should get the Peer and Good Reputation (Inquisition) by having lots of friends in the organization who will support you if some noob inquisitor denounces you a heretic. Similarly if you want to use SM or SOB power armor, get these feats for (Adeptus Astartes, Adeptus Sororitas or Ecclesiachy).

Hantheman said:

That was referring to suits of power armour equaling Marine protection built for non-Marines. Sorry if that bit was unclear.

And indeed the construction of new suits of Astartes armour is extremely limited, yet this strikes me as being the result of all the unique, nifty gadgets and subsystems built into the armour, not its protection. As I said, comparative armour just means slapping more plates on it, though the suit will inevitably end up getting more bulky and slower in the process.

Hantheman said:

The power armour in BoM is closer to carapace than Marine armour, which is a direct contradiction to the current Codex. Dark Heresy was not written by Games Workshop but by Black Industries, and just like the Black Library novels and comics they are but interpretations that do not necessarily compare to studio canon. It is also worth pointing out that, back when Black Industries still had the license, Space Marine power armour had AP8 and Astartes boltguns did 2d10 damage. Just something to note, perhaps, but that fits much better to the actual Codex descriptions than what DW has right now.

Hantheman said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that - the last numbers we got for the amount of SoB (which was in their 2E Codex) was somewhere around 30.000. Though it is worth pointing out that they have a much higher attrition rate than Space Marines and the numbers fluctuate heavily (indicating rather high amounts of losses at least for the "basic" equipment). After the Third War of Armageddon, for example, the Order of Our Martyred Lady (one of the six Ordos Militant Maioris) could barely field three companies of Sisters, the majority of the Order staffed by inexperienced novices fresh from the Schola.

Marine armor is only more protective in the torso compared to the armor from DH and RT power armor. Other areas have the same protection. Again isn't the gadgets what we have been primarily discussing about here?

The current Witchhunter Codex only says that it's based off Astatres power armor minus the lifesupport gadgets. It has never stated which pattern it is based off - there are Astates patterns that have that level of protection or less. Right now, from the various FFG games, various power armor give from 4 to 9 in all areas and up to 11 in the chest. Heavy Power Armor from Into the Storm gives 9 all around which is more than SM armor which is focuses on higher torso protection, limbs and helmets in general have 7 or 8.

Let me try find numbers for SoB somewhere, I remember reading this somewhere - but I don't quite remember where.

I'd wouldn't take the studio cannon as an unchangeable fact anyway. Just to take SoB for an example the location for the 2 convents were swapped in the 2nd ed Codex SoB, and have remained that way since. The convenient department of historical corrections means that GW can happily rewrite any previously published history as cannon disregarding previously printed material (and proscribed and heretical ).

Hantheman said:

I'm not entirely sure - I thought it was the armoured protection? Sorry if I misunderstood something.

Hantheman said:

Given that it was 3rd Edition and that the MkVIII Aquila has been described as the contemporary standard for all Marine Chapters since then, I always assumed that it was this one which the Angel-pattern was compared to.

Hantheman said:

Yeah, in BoM. 7 for arms/legs/head, 8 for body. Which doesn't really sound like "same degree of armoured protection". If you compare the BoM equipment to DW Marines and would convert both back into TT rules, you'd end up with female Guardsmen in carapace.

Hantheman said:

I'd wouldn't take the studio cannon as an unchangeable fact anyway. Just to take SoB for an example the location for the 2 convents were swapped in the 2nd ed Codex SoB, and have remained that way since. The convenient department of historical corrections means that GW can happily rewrite any previously published history as cannon disregarding previously printed material (and proscribed and heretical ).

Absolutely! However, I maintain (and this perception has been strenghtened by statements from people such as Gav Thorpe or George Mann) that only GW can retcon itself - if you'd take any novel, comic, computer game or RPG book produced by a licensee writer to the same level, the average height of Marines alone would change between 2 and 3 meters every month, depending on the author.

And you'd have Marines use multilasers.

Lynata said:

I believe 5+ armor converts to 3-4 AP (Flak), 4+ to 5-6 AP (Carapace), 3+ to 7-10 AP (Power). I actually think there is a tactical use for 7AP armor as it doesn't reduce Agility or increase size. Also going through the rules, I'm kinda amused that SMs do not have the absolute heaviest Power Armor out there (Yes artificer is better but it is in tabletop too).

Mark VIII is Errant - the new one, Aquila is Mk VII 8 (Torso 10) AP.

Conversions from table top to RPG work badly tho. Can you imagine how monsterous an Ogryn would be if you converted S:5 T:5 W:3 A:3 of a standard ogryn (not a bone head) into RPG? Ok, DW marines are not your run of the mill SMs - since you can be librarians or chaplains, lets assume they use hero stats S:4, T:4, W:2, A:2; does that mean an average ogryn has around 60(!) strength and toughness exceptional x2?

I've been looking around for the deployment numbers for SoB and I can't find them - I might be mistaken as to the exact deployment of Sisters Militant, as most deployment figures deploy them as Adeptus Sororitas which is both orders militant and non-militant. That being said, the orders militant (non-militant as well) are very active in the Calixis Sector which is the civilized area for the RT setting. The Order of the Bloody Rose maintains at least one full preceptory (1000), I suspect the Order of the Ebon Chalice also, The Order of the Valorous Heart has a (fairly large) presence, and I suspect The Order of Our Martyred Lady has some as well, lets not forget the minor orders militant the Order of the Golden Light. I would estimate between 3000 to 5000 SoBs at least operate out of this sector.

Actually, according to GW, all stuff written using the GW IP, regardless of the source, is, due to it being vetted and approved by GW, and are entirely 100% canon. There is no difference in "canon level" between stuff written by GW, and stuff written by Black Library writers, FFG, Sabretooth Games (the guys who make the TCGs of the GW IP settings), etc.

So saying "it's different in the tabletop rules" isn't actually a rebuttal to the assertion that Space Marine armour and weaponry is better than other models of the same weapons, even those used by the Sisters of Battle, as the tabletop game is an abstract of the setting made to fit with d6s being used for everything, and as such is going to be less accurate because of said abstraction.

Even pointing out bits in fluff that say that it's the same isn't a true rebuttal, since GW also say that none of the fluff is 100% correct - some are lies, some are personal opinion of the person writing it, some of it is propaganda, and some of it are half-truths. Just because the Witchhunter Codex (which is now 2 editions out-of-date, and is in serious need of an update) says that Sisters of Battle are just as well equipped as Space Marines doesn't mean that it is so.

I recall a White Dwarf article where someone said the official stance was "Everything is canon, except the stuff that isn't."

Hantheman said:

Well, you could argue that the absolute heaviest power armour are Terminator suits.

Hantheman said:

You are correct, I've mis-remembered the correct Mark to go with the pattern name. The Aquila is indeed an Mk VII and presumably the one the SoB armour would be compared to.

Hantheman said:

Not any more monstrous than something with Unnatural stats, I presume.

Hantheman said:

The 2E Codex had a rather informative piece of fluff about their organization and deployment numbers, including how many Seraphim they train and stuff like that. It also went on to mention that all the Orders have their primary bases in one of the two Convents, which are large enough to accomodate all the Sisters of the Orders assigned to them - even though most of them are usually active elsewhere in the Imperium, be it on a mission or garrison duty in one of their smaller dependencies.

Eh, what the warp ... I'll just cite the article. Given how little known these details are amongst the community due to the scarcity of their respective sources, it's always beneficial to spread them:

"All of the Orders of the Sisterhood are divided between the two principle worlds of Earth and Ophelia VII. The Adepta Sororitas has an extensive Convent on each of these planets which are home to members of all Orders. For most of the time, members of the Sisterhood will not be occupying their Convent but are dispatched across the Imperium in accordance with their various duties. However, the Convent still bustles with new recruits and organisational staff, even when most of its inhabitants are fighting a War of Faith or employed in some other major effort. [...]

When Sebastian Thor ascended to the position of Ecclesiarchy there were roughly 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor under his command. Upon founding the Adepta Sororitas these warriors were split between the Convents on Ophelia VII and Terra (the Convent Sanctorum and Convent Prioris respectively). With recruits passing through the hands of the Schola Progenium once again, the Adepta Sororitas' ranks soon grew to over 10,000 fighters. The Ecclesiarch succeeding Thor Ecclesiarch Alexis XXII split each of the Convents into two Orders each, founding the Orders Militant of the Ebon Chalice, Valorous Heart, Fiery Heart and the Argent Shroud.

Two and a half thousand years later, two more Orders were created by Deacis VI (the Orders of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to accommodate almost 15,000 warriors each. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now numbers between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim. These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors. With much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed."

MILLANDSON said:

Which simply isn't true. I keep hearing this on the forums, yet apparently nobody ever bothered to actually check if it's right. I did:

"If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books."
- Gav Thorpe on his blog

"In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library’s main objective was to “tell good stories”. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40k worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that is HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work."
- from an interview with George Mann, head of GW Publishing

Also, apparently the people from the Bolter & Chainsword forum who were playtesting DW specifically got told that "it's only canon for the RPG".

As previously pointed out - if any licensee author would be able to rewrite canon as he pleases we can throw 90% of what we know of the setting out of the window. We have to differentiate what adheres to the setting as defined by GW, what may serve as a good inspiration to add to it without breaking anything, and which is just silly (such as D-Cannons firing solid projectiles or Marines using multilasers or Terminators doing backflips etc - yes, all of this happened in novel stuff, and worse).

MILLANDSON said:

Just because an RPG (which is one of many licensee publications that at times conflicts with studio canon and is not even consistent in itself - just look at the Astartes weapons/armour that have shown up in DH so far, and which is far below DW stuff) says that Sisters of Battle are not as well equipped as Space Marines doesn't mean that is so.

We shouldn't let this topic get out of hand, though. It's neither about canon nor about the SoB - sorry for sidetracking you there for a moment, I just felt compelled to throw in the above points.