Fortinbras said:

Fortinbras said:

No, no he can't. Some things aren't ABOUT money or influence. There is a galaxy-wide state mandated religion that calls these giant creatures angels and believes them to be the personal warriors of God. The base technology behind their armour was developed before the imperium of man was more than about three or four conquered feudal states on Terra. Buying these things would be like going to the vatican and saying "I will give you a billion dollars for the Shroud of Turin. Here's my card."

Even if they COULD buy a suit of Astartes Armour, they couldn't use it. They don't have the decades of training, gene-therapy and hypno-training required to even make the thing move.

That being said, could a RT get a suit of power armour with AV10 on all locations, a near permanent power source and built in auto-senses, stim injectors, recoil gloves, mag boots, vox caster and air conditioning? Of course he can. He's a Rogue Trader. He can (eventually) purchase near enough to anything. Just some stuff isn't for sale. Space Marines, in certain ways, ARE superior to Rogue Traders. I know of no fluff to back this up - feel free to quote me on that - but I wouldn't be shocked to find Rogue Traders actually outnumber Space Marines in the galaxy.

I don't say this cause I'm having a slobbering love affair with my Ultramarines. I'm saying it because that is one of the core elements of the worldframe, regardless of what book I'm running with. If I ran Deathwatch, **** straight I'd put in a Rogue Trader who'd bought their chapters service in order to clear out a space hulk. If I was running Dark Heresy, I'd be throwing in a Rogue Trader dealing with illegal items that the Inquisition can't just destroy outright because the trader has far too much influence for even the inquisition to touch. I'm not calling Rogue Traders inferior, I'm simply understanding their place in the universe.

The relationships between marines and RTs is as nebulous as their relationships with everything else. Some are assigned marine escorts to help them in their missons (2nd or 3rd edition space wolf codex), some are asked by certain organizations to transport marines to special destinations (NPC in Deathwatch that does just this), Others are there because they're renegades and or exiles the Rogue trader finds useful.

So a RT is as likely to have a marine on board as he is to have inquisitors, Forge masters, Titan Princeps, Cardinals, and Oddly space elves with weird helmets.

In other words there's a chance someone somewhere at sometime has done something like one of the options, and thus it's as likely to happen to a PC when/if the GM wants it to.

Back to the topic it's entirely possible for a Rogue Trader to make a marine chapter like him , or owe him in such a way that they manufacture, or gift him with some manner of specialized gear. Perhaps they have a suit of terminator armor once worn by a remberancer during the great crusade, and thus it can fit a human. Perhaps he saves a techmarine's life and he in turns forges a suit with a machine spirit more keen and eager than the 'civilian' suits. Both would probably use marine power systems as described in Death Watch.

Mind you just being fitted for the suit would take some time, as would its repair, refurbishing, and or manufacture. There would also be an unspoken relationship between the lucky Captain and the marines. Were he to somehow slight that bond...well.....pray he can run fast.

Ok there seems to be a discrepancy here.

1. Astartes and Battle Sister armor is sacred because they have worth beyond the cost to make them. They have history, honor, glory, and the elan of their organizations bound up in them. The chances of buying an actual(used by them chapter markings and all) suit legitimately are slim at best and others of their kind will want them back if gotten in any other manner. Possibly one may be awarded for extreme examples of service.

2. On the other hand a RT has immense money power and connections so he can get something similar to them in a fairly strait forward manner. For instance if he wants a suit that does not run out of power (like the battle sister ones) he can go to the mechanicus (or his explorator if he has the skills) and commission one. The armor he gets will probably be similar in many ways to the SM (though in the SM case lacking some abilities) or BS armors but it will not be identical and will never have been affiliated with the SM or BS and thus will not anger them.

For instance is there anywhere it says the AdMech will only make power armor with BS type power supplies only for the BS? IE is there exclusivity there? Or is it just that the armors are expensive and hard to produce and the AdMech produces them for the BS because of ancient obligations and that the echelesiarchy has enough cash to pay for them in mass. Thus leaving the door open for a rich RT to come along and commission similar armors? Just saying that the BS are the only ones to use that type of power armor does not mean that a RT cannot get what is effectively a knockoff for himself without causing any undue panty twisting.

Fortinbras said:

Well most of what needs to be said has been said very nicely above. A couple points about the above though.

No, I don't "know" that any Rogue Trader could buy and sell a suit of Astartes Power Armor 5,000 times over. In fact, though it specifically is referring to the weapons of the Astartes the sidebar on pg. 146 of DW titled "Mans reach exceeds his grasp" seems to be entirely on the subject of how it is a bad idea for people who aren't space marines to acquire their gear. It's statement that acquiring their weapons should "never simply the result of an acquisition test or influence roll" seems relatively clear.

I don't have to "preserve the magic" in any way. Space Marines are superior, if they weren't then the imperium would just send rogue traders to war (which seems like a logical action since each of them can apparently buy and sell 5 chapters worth of their inferiors).

Sorry you're wrong.

llsoth said:

'... he uncovered a lost Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator vessel and exchanged its location for a gleaming suit of power armour presented by the grateful Magos of Altar-Templum-Calixis-Est-17,...'

p113, Edge of the Abyss.

not that the entry for Sarvus Trask has anything but the standard listing for best power armour, but I agree that a Rogue Trader is very likely to be able to get his hands on some Astartes-level gear, even if it isnt actually Astartes gear. You get a Magos who is an expert on armour to like you enough, and I could see the entire party hooked up in Artificer armour. Admittedly, you prolly just gave him a couple new STC patterns or something like that, so you prolly arent some noobs.

Oops, long discussions..

First of all, thank you for your kind replies, especially I'm only a noob in both FFG and 40k Universe.

My primary question was, where to find the 'military' version. I'm drawing my conclusion that there are no 'military' version, however there are many other kind of Power Armour from other FFG games (whoa, lots of books to buy just to have a Power Armour ). Some advices including a house rules for fixed time, or maybe access to recharge, or simply 'go do your mission and back' sounds pretty good, that best power armour have longer time, or military power supply is a near unique item; will discuss with my group then.

Furthermore, I got some other conclusions /informations that:

1. Space Marines are unique, and their Power Armour is unique

2. Adepta Sororitas are... puritants? their Power Armour is also unique

3. Rogue Trader, who have webs of contacts, influences, money, have 'the potential' to acquire almost anything (well, they can acquire xenos-ships, harlequin kiss, etc).

4. HOWEVER, even if a Rogue Trader managed to acquire a unique Power Armour (astartes' or sororitas'), best be careful; Space Marines and Adepta Sororitas are zealots at best and could consider such 'acquisition' as... blasphemy and heresy.. just like ordinary zealots nowadays (unless, of course, we are members of such zealot society.). True, Rogue Trader have many influences, but when you met the mentioned zealot on an alley, in the wrath of powerful zealots right 3m in front of you, such vast influences and tremendous money could prove useless... O___oa

5. AAAND apparently to wear a Space Marine Power Armour, you might need to be a Space Marines because of that black carapace (?)

Bottom line, I will use this: eventhough a Rogue Trader 'can' acquire unique Power Armour, it still needs lots of heroic deeds/extreme performances (and Roleplays) in addition to the Acquisition roll. OR simply do the dirty way, then wear them at your own risk; better be ready to fight more enraged holy paladins. Other than that, a house rule on Power Supply is needed.

Thank you everyone, sorry for creating a long and heated discussion

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I think the term "burned" would apply here. It's probably not the best idea to try to argue what a Rogue Trader can or cannot do with someone who is actually one of the main people that writes what a Rogue Trader can and cannot do.

Also, as you said Nathan, it's a lot more interesting when the protagonists don't get what they want. If they could just do whatever they want whenever they want and absolutely no one can do anything about it... where's the game? I can sit and watch paint dry for all the challenge or entertainment such a boring concept would give me.

MILLANDSON said:

Burned sounds about right...I've been following this discussion with interest (one of my players had some similar questions) and it seems that Fortinbras has gone silent now that his usual brand of bullying has come up against someone who truly DOES know better.

Bravo, and I look forward to Battlefleet Koronus.

L-

In RPGs it's not about winning and losing. It's about entertainment.

1d5 hours of casual use is way too low. I mean, how many horsepower does a motorcycle get and how many miles can you go before refueling? How many horsepower does a suit of power armor need exactly. Anyway, I'd say go with a vehicle comparison. If you just say a suit of regular power armor gets "3 hours" of use, it's like a vehicle - 3 hours of highish cruising speed. Call that 12mph in power armor, and just say they need a recharge after 36 miles of running. That said, it probably uses very little power while standing around on guard duty (like an idling hybrid car - basically none).

I houserule that one can carry a portable generator (say a promethium powered turbine or methanol fuel cell) backpack that can easily boost that endurance by double, and is quickly refuelable (liquid fuel). Tends to increase your noise, vibration, and heat footprint though (even a fuel cell needs a whirring compressor/fan to pull in sufficient air and makes a significant amount of waste heat).

As for fancier upgrades, a poor quality power weapon is Rare (down from Very Rare) and I think whatever its exotic power source could easily serve as a trickle charger for regular power armor. Even a regular power fist is Very Rare. Thus, I give "Sororitas 5day" or better level power to my players if they get Good quality armor or better. And that is at least 5 days (60 hours) at 12mph in my interpretation. Call it a 720 mile range.

Also, one could just source a potentia coil from the Mechanicus, right (a la the Dragon Armor) and install it in the armor?

As for rarity of potentia coils - pg 27 of Dark Heresy - you can get them from "bulky electrical galvinators salvaged from vehicle engines".

Potentia Coil

Cradled within the cyber-mantle is a power unit known as the potentia coil. This mass can store energy and produce various types of fields. Coils come in many types, from small crystal stack affairs, to bulky electrical galvinators salvaged from vehicle engines. Many a hunchback within the Adeptus Mechanicus is blamed upon a primitive coil.

Also check out the Inquisitors Handbook page 147. Isotropic fuel rods are Average scarcity, cost 3000 thrones, 10kg, and can power a hab block for a good while. Sounds like just the thing. Now, I don't know how big a hab block is, but I'm guessing a city block (1/8 mile by 1/8mile - probably 1/8 mile tall too). I'm guessing that's at least a megawatt (that is, 1341 horsepower) and probably 2-3x that. Not cheap but easily sourced - and would probably last a few years.

I don't think sourcing better power solutions for power armor should be difficult at all.

I always assumed that the listed battery life for civilian power armor was for strenueus activities such as combat or climbing up a mountain on a heavy gravity world. Otherwise it would last a lot longer, the exact length being a matter of common sense. Sitting in chair isn't going suck up anywhere near the same amount of juice as let's say marching in a victory parade.

I'd argue instead that the 1d5 hours is how efficiently the battery manages to recycle its energy output. Power Armour doesn't exactly have a transmission; the armour doesn't know that you're just sitting, as far as it's concerned you might be about to leap twenty feet into the air. It's either off or running at full capacity. That's part of why power armour takes so much training to take delicate actions, you're fighting the armour's natural inclination to punch holes in walls when all you wanted was to tap it.

Meh, to each his own. I was just using the power armor in Ascension to extrapolate what FFG's current stance on the battery life is. Having the 1d5 only apply to certain situations makes power armor much more viable.

We just rule that at the Aquisition you roll 1d5 and that´s the numer of Day´s the fuelsupply of the fusion generator of the PA lasts.

Thats enough time for the typical situations Rouge Trader encounter, even if they are Stuck on a Planet or in a Space Hulk and it makes the PA somewhat unique ( good and best quality double the time )

And without the additional Components in SM´s Armor and their implants it´s realy hard to sleep in these, so no " I wear my Power Armor all the Time"

from france

in dh in ascencion i think, power armour the military one do not suffer this problems. i subjest to make them military one.

sorry for the very short answer i lack time for a more elaborate one.

Stepping over that unpleasantness earlier in the thread...

I ruled that standard power armour lasts for five hours unless the wearer engages in heavy combat or something other activity that puts great strain on the power supply. Military power supplies are possible acquisitions. And one of the player took a suit of archaotech power armour as their starting acquisition, which I said had a power supply good for a week (this was long before Ascension popped up).

I just rule Space Marines form the tabletop.

So no magically better weaponry, the little enhancements to their power armour are ok (most of them can be built into normal power armour see Delphis).

Especially since if i ever open the can of storms (as a GM) that is "SMs do it better!"; ill be the first guy that buys Astartes grade weaponry for his Explorator. Space Marines are subject to the Imperium, which puts them not even an inch above the AdMech.

The Adeptus Mechanics even manufactures all those weapons. And they are known for keeping the best for themselves (See Omnissian Axe vs normal power axe).

Hrmm Best quality Astartes Grade Stormbolter for my Explorator once please. At Rank4, you are more machine than a Space Marine (and probably as heavy), so there should be no problem with recoil.

Except that every single personal combat jas turned largely useless.

And dont even let me get the idea of crafting artificer armour for the char. Black carapace pfff. being a machine; adding armour is only like adding a metal skin onto your metal body. Explorator Magos Militaris has some weight.

And since that rant is all too stupid, ill go with:

Space Marines use the same weaponry. End of story. My Angels of Absolution Deathwing agrees with me; otherwise they will teleport to FFG headquarters and requisition these superior weaponry in a pinch.

The funny thing about space marines on the tabletop is that they're the furthest away from the descriptions of their capabilities in the background. Deathwatch does a far better job of representing super soldiers. If they're only slightly better than normal humans as per tabletop, then what is the point of a mere million of them? An incredibly expensive bunch of storm troopers? I think not.

Wealth is incredibly useful in 40k but cannot get you everything. Prohibitions and traditions can bind even the high lords of terra, let alone a rogue trader. The astartes have time and time again been described in multiple sources as having the finest standard wargear. Besides, the adeptus mechanicus have pacts with the astartes they've kept for millennia. They aren't going to put up a sign saying "astartes boltguns for sale". And having the machine trait does not mean you somehow ignore the need for connection to a suit of astartes power armour that the black carapace allows or ignore recoil. Magi still have penalties to firing a basic weapon one-handed after all.

Voronesh said:

Voronesh said:

It specifically says in the Deathwatch book in a graphic sidebar:

"Grave religious taboos exist throughout most of the
Imperium against daring to touch weapons meant for
the hands of the Emperor’s Angels of Death. Astartes
weapons react violently to the grip of the unworthy,
and men bearing terrible burn scars are living proof of a
flamer’s outrage in the hands of an ignoble master. Still,
there are invariably those bold and foolish enough to
try taming the machine spirits of Astartes weapons.
Obtaining an Astartes weapon should require
considerable effort on a character’s part and never simply
be the result of an Acquisition or Influence roll. Astartes
Ranged weapons count as one Class heavier to anyone
lacking in Space Marine physiology. For example a
Pistol is a Basic weapon; a Basic weapon is Heavy, and
so on. Furthermore, Astartes weapons impose a –30
penalty to all Tests made with them by presumptuous
mortals due to improper scale, weight, and/or recoil—
even in power armour. The GM may also choose to
impose other problems from the rebellious machine
spirit based on the nature of a weapon (a plasma
weapon may require Toughness Tests from routine heat
venting; a power weapon may run the risk of feedback,
etc). Space Marines may use weapons scaled for normal
humans without penalty if they choose, although the
GM may wish to require that the Space Marine take an
extra action or two to remove parts that get in the way
(such as the trigger guard or the stock!)."

So good luck getting one, then good luck hitting anything with it, then good luck so it doesn't explode in your face or jam every other round.

Voronesh said:

Pretty sure Explorators can't take Heavy Weapon Training, and as an Elite advance it'd probably be 1,000 exp or so. And no, big does not equal 'able to absorb recoil better'. Buy recoil gloves, or auto-stabilize

Voronesh said:

I'm really not sure that this comment was even trying to accomplish anything...

Voronesh said:

Space marines do not use the same weaponry. Their weaponry is bigger and it is easy to assume their ammunition uses harder metals, better propellants, advanced machine spirits, etc. I don't understand why everyone hates the idea that space marines are just better. If you want logic in your 40k badly enough you can't ignore "a bigger, more sophisticated gun does more damage" without a 400 page book explaining why, then burn every one of your 40k books or your eyes will burn out from the lack of logic in this universe. Its awesome because its awesome. It just is. Period.

Read up on the Adeptus Mechanicus again.

Warning im a tabletop wargamer first, if something contradicts my Codex, i only allow it, if it adds to the enjoyment of the game.

Allies of equal value, to the Imperium not a part of it. An Explorator walks back top his Forge World, and gets one. The AdMech keeps the best stuff for itself. It doesnt give them away to the Astartes.

Whatever the DW book writes, doesnt have to be true. Rites of battle lets torpedo strikes deal less damage than a heavy bomber. HF discussing that.

Im pretty sure a Machinator Array/ The flesh is weak X Explorator doesnt care if a weapon is a little bit bigger. He has probably enough mass to ignore the problems weaker fleshbags have.

I have the feeling you havent played 40k ever. The actual one. An Imperial Guard bolter is as deadly as a Space Marine bolter. Repeat with every gun known. (balance reasons invented the astartes shotgun. WOW). My codex is canon, FFG stuff is imply canon on a 2nd level. I can adapt. But blatant contrdiction is pretty hard to get down.

And in regard to tabletop being less effective than the fluff. You have to consider that Space Marines use tactics at the level of Manstein; everybody else is more at the level of WW1. While playing tabletop that difference is not really there. Unless you beat someone up the hard way. (yadda yadda, have a player that uses nids the same way every single game, at some point you will defeat him while asleep)

And to echo WhiteLycan:

Why cant you simply accept that Space Marine bolters dont need to be superboosted to get you a supersoldier. Its not the gun but the mind that carries victory.

Seems I am late for the party! Then again, everything has been said already.

Given that the RPG's armour stats already contradict studio canon somewhat, I would say roll with what you think suits your game best. The system in place is sufficient, and tweaking a few numbers here or there should not be a problem, if you are not quite satisfied with FFG's interpretation of the setting.

As has been previously mentioned, the chances of actually getting an affiliated suit of Astartes or Sororitas power armour are next to non existant (unless you pursue unofficial channels and the black market, which is highly dangerous and could get even a Rogue Trader into trouble with the respective organization - given that you would not only be seen as besmirching the suit's honour but also masquerading as a member of said Adeptus, it's just begging for consequences). However, it does seem plausible to instead acquire somewhat similar armour of equal quality and efficiency, though it would likely take quite some time, resources and possibly even favours, all depending on the individual character's standing with the local Mechanicus. Said favours could also be woven into a campaign nicely, I'm sure.

As for the power supply - in addition to a fully-fledged fusion generator backpack or larger internal batteries, there might also be the option to carry replacement batteries with you, or have the armour get recharged "in the field" via portable generators in your personal vehicle. And I'm sure the Tech-Priests in your groups can help you further.

Voronesh said:

Well if you really want a military power source for your power armor, the trick is not to get it from the warriors who wear it (Astartes or Sororitas) but the people who make it - the Mechanicus. The Mechanicus are pretty practical people, get them something they want and they will give you what you want, they are also traders at heart. All the original Sororitas Power Armor was commissioned by Vandire after all, before he pissed off the Fabricator General. But he was the Master of the Administratum and Ecclesiach at the time so he had A LOT of stuff to trade - but I'm sure any good Rogue Trader can find a way to make a bargain.

To those guys who want a set of Space Marine Power Armor, well its not unobtainium - but wearing it without a black carapace means a lot of the additional perks of the armor doesn't really work. Its also not terribly hard to fit into it contrary to what most people think, especially if your character is pretty large and muscular. A typical space marine stands at 2.1m which isn't really inhumanly tall. Their weight due to bone and muscle mass on the other hand.... If you reaaaally want a set of Space Marine Armor - go for Mk1 Thunder Armor. Better yet find a way to get the Historical Revision Unit of the Administratum to claim it was worn by your direct ancestors in days of yore. You will have Space Marines (well not just Space Marines - it IS a 10,000 year old relic after all) in awe of you.

As for a Rogue Trader not being a military force, well that's really not true. It depends on what is written on your Warrant of Trade. If you have one of those "Go forth and conquer, Bring the light of the Emperor to the far reaches of the Galaxy" kind of warrant that Haarlock or the from the Rogue Trader Army List in 1st Ed WH40K had, then your only a bit less military than say a Lord Solar or Warmaster. The point is your warrant which determines how your game is going to be run - if you want to be all Star Trekky and go forth and explore, or you want to smash ork, smash eldar, smash chaos - tell your GM - if you're not having fun - why play the game?

Speaking of the Black Carapace - older fluff about the Angel-pattern armour talks about Mechanicus MIU-implants being a viable alternative to it, only that the extent of such upgrades would be clearly visible on the person utilizing one (which is supposedly why Vandire said "no" to this option).

You'd have to come up with rules of your own for this sort of stuff, but considering what an MIU does and how it works, I would conclude that it could result in a similar "bond" between man and machine as the one created by the Black Carapace. It would, however, take much more training and a long period of getting accustomed - as with any MIU, only that one which controls an entire suit of armour makes it even more difficult as it involves moving a greater number of little bits.

Worth a read: Real World BMI (brain-machine-interface)

Or it could have cost more than he was willing to pay. He wasn't getting one set of power armor, he was getting thousands - in fact at the end of the age of apostasy there were 4000 sisters of battle remaining. Or the training could have taken too long - this is also the reason why modern militaries shifted from warrior castes like knights and samurai to conscripted soldiers.

The MIU interface is prob a viable alternative to controlling SM power armor, but I suspect the black carapace interface allows a more instictive interface which is why its located on the torso rather than the head. A properly trained SM would probably activate various functions of his power armor through the black carapace as it monitors the fluctuations in his hormones and enzymes or chemicals in the body. Using a MIU would require you to mentally command each function and you would need to have proper feedback of your body to make sure you activate these functions at the right time. Making this many decisions in combat would be very difficult at best - and may cause confusion leading to injury or death at worst.

Instinct is by far faster than thought, which is why all combatants, soldiers, martial artists, etc train muscle memory using continuous mock combat or katas. A good martial artist can think and plan in combat because his body automatically takes care of stuff like defending itself and making attacks of opportunity.