(PS. I was debating which forum this should go to but I think that it's a general enough topic to warrant discussion).

So, I while I got my hands on some 2nd ed books, I'm afraid I haven't read and digested them yet, and I know that there's a number of lore-ninja's about that may be able to help me.

DISCLAIMER: I tried to keep out SPOILERS but there may be some mention of the WOM published adventure. You have been warned.

I do not like games where might makes right, and PC actions have no consequence. In the game I'm running the current PCs were in Altdorf . The PCs murdered a cultist in plain view of a number of people shortly after witnessing a chaos related beastie transforming and running amok (and the PCs managing to both stop a crowd of people from hurting each other by stampeding out of the localle and downed aforementioned beastie). The two local gendarmes tried to intercede but the socialite gambler rallied the crowd, and they were facing a couple dozen angry people, and a heavily armed squad of PCs, and the man who was killed admitted in not so many words that he was guilty of some pretty nasty stuff before alot of witnesses. Consequently the guards didn't make a huge scene of it, but they are planning on returning with more men to 'deal with this properly'. In the meantime the PCs killed a gang of thugs who were working with aforementioned cultist, and managed to cause some property damage (knocking down an old rickety tower during some battles with more beasties). While the PCs are pretty spot on for trying to 'do the right thing' I don't really know exact legal proceedings in the empire. Even Witch Hunters (many of whom have effective carte blanche when it comes to exterminating cults) perform trials, and there seems to be some due process but exactly to what that is and what is appropriate punishment - I don't know.

So I guess what I'm asking is this - is there any list of laws, or legal proceedings present in any of the fluff materials with 2nd ed, and do you guys have any advice on how to deal with PCs admittedly 'doing the right thing' but causing murder and property damage in the capital city? I'm not trying to kill them off or cause massive red tape that will bog down game for multiple sessions, but consequences (such as having to do some missions for the local constabulary, work off fines, or perhaps beg of a patron to help/save them) are probably a good 'slap on the wrist' to assure them that they need to work within the lines when not facing clear and obvious external threats (beastmen, greenskins, etc), or working under the auspices of a legal and political benefactor (such as withing the jurisdiction of a lord on his own lands).

Also, do you have any ideas for resolution, tips, tricks or interesting tidbits to share on the topic?

Have at!

I'd start with the easy stuff: put them in the stocks!

jh

The general impression given by the 2ed books (Sigmar's Heirs and Ashes of Middenheim) is that the laws of the Empire are so numerous and complex that they defy comprehension. The legal system is also a complete mess, filled with overlapping jurisdictions and multiple formal and informal power structures. So there are plenty of options available to you...

In the cities the crown is usually responsible for the enforcement of the law. The Electoral and Imperial courts are the most likely to deal with the case, the PCs would probably also require a lawyer or at least someone in a position of power to speak for them. I would say you have a fairly free hand to run the trial however you want.

If your group prefers a lot of dialogue and the possibilities offered from tense RPing then a full trial might be fun, they would have to gather evidence, witnesses, and present a solid case. This could be easy or it could be made quite difficult if other cultists began to work against them.

If your group is more action oriented then convict them and send them on a mission to "earn forgiveness for their crimes". Alternatively allow them to prove their innocence through some act against Chaos.

A few more points to consider:

While the Emperor is technically the source of law in the empire their are limitations on imperial power, the electors can and will work against imperial laws they disagree with (less of a problem in Reikland for obvious reasons); this can lead to a fair amount of conflict between different legal agencies; the imperial authorities might back the PCs while electoral or temple officials seek to prosecute.

The merchant guilds and temples also have their own courts and the Wizard Orders tend to protect their own. Various criminal organizations can also exert considerable influence as can foreign embassies.

Their are plenty of ways to exert legal pressure on the PCs limited, really, only by your imagination.

regards,

ET

I cant think of anything jumping out at me from my second edition books, maybe something brief in Sigmars Heirs, at a guess i would say try the tome of salvation looking at the sections for Verna, also from first edition the first book from the Enemy within has some bits on laws in. Other than that i would recomend looking up laws from europe in the 16-1700's as im pretty sure they will be pretty close.

Oh and check out Terror in Tabbehlichiem (Prob spelt totally wrong) if my memory serves me they have a bit discribing the burcaracy involved behind the legal system..

As for how to deal with the PC's, i would start by having the watch giving them a stern warning, and if they continued to wreck the place then have a guild pursue them thru the courts for every brass penny, along with any legal ramifications that get throw in also.

Hope that helps. Crimsonsun

I think you need to split this in two really.

On one side you have the guards, and the department they're attached to. The player humiliated them, by rallying the crowd against them. Very likely they want revenge of some sort, and will be very interested in locking up the character, and try'n get him sentenced.

The other side is the actual law, which would be on the players side, if they "prove" he was a cultist (witnesses etc...). But if they can't prove it, he stands to hang in the gallows!

This whole thing is an adventure of it's own. Involving vengefull guards, law system, maybe thieves guild (who can offer to find witnesses, or get them out of the city), a witch hunter, Verena priest etc... list is endless.

Middenheim - City of the White Wolf (1st Ed.) has a judicial system described.

If I remember correctly, Shadows over Bögenhafen (1st ed.) does too.

In 2nd ed., I remember something in Terror in Talabheim, and maybe something in the Companion?

First concerning your players lack of discretion, make a tracker, everytime the players does something in plain sight that can be viewed as a criminal activity, move the counter up a notch or two depending on the severity of the alleged crime and the trustworthiness of witnesses.

when it reach the first event, let the players know that the watchmen means business and that they might be in serious trouble, unless they stay under the radar. when it reaches the final event, than the actions of the players have been deemed too dangerous by the authorites to see through, and a manhunt is in effect taking place.

Remember that the law system of the empire is primitive compared to our own world. Killing a peasant migth not give you the death penalty, but stealing or killing a horse would send you right to the gallows (from the 1st edition TEW).

By My honour I speak the truth
the law system of warhammer is very much a honour system, where your honour, social standing and credit rating weights heavily not only in a court, but even if the watchmen or roadwarden is going to arrest. It quite possible for skilled adventurers to talk their way out of getting arrested. Needlessly to say it takes a lot to get a noble arrested for practically anything short of heresy. and even than their good standing gives them a favourable stance in the court. maybe their uncle or brother sits in court?

Imperial Law and Imperial courts (gold tier)
basically deals with revenues, security, regulations of sorcery (crimes against magic) and the rooting out of Chaos cults. Big things that can have threat to the nation itself. and most of the civil cases between nobles are held in the imperial courts.

Provincial Law and Regular Courts (silver tier)
deals with civil and criminal matters: crimes against property and persons, and civil suits. in this category, you will find a wide variety of practices and methods. ranging from courts where nobles, high cult officials and prominent burghers sits in court, to rural feudal courts where just one noble lord sits in judgement.

Petty courts (bronze tier)

this represent the low scale for criminal offences, drunkeness and other minor offences, which falls under the jurisdiction of Watch sergeants and captains, which can even hold their own courts. typically any arrested adventurer will first have their case tried in front of a watch-captain. If he deem their crimes to be eligible for greater punishment, their case will be tried in a regular court, as opposed to a Watch court.

in all courts there is no distinction between criminal cases or civil cases. meaning that pressing charges can be a risky affair if the court favours the accused.

besides this you have Guild Courts and Temple courts, which deals only specifically with either guild conduct or religious crimes.

Guilty until proven innocent
anyone accused of crimes in a court, is in big trouble, because they have to prove their innocence, failing that they will be sentenced. In theory anyone accused in a court can make appeals or plead their case, all the way up to the Elector-count, which usually than takes place in an imperial court. This generally takes months, and more often than not, overzealous local officials have by than allready carried out the sentence.

Punishments
Punishments in the old world for breaking the law can be very harsh indeed. Even minor offences can send the offender in the stocks (which in itself can be a death sentence if an angry mob starts dishing out street justice), or lashes being the second choice. many of the minor punishments can be avoided if the offender can pay fines ranging from a shilling to a gold crown for most minor offences.

When deciding punishments for offenders (players) the most important thing to remember is that the Empire don't practice long time Incarceration. with only a few exceptions (most notibly Marienburg and Talabheim), most punishments and sentence is a quickly done affair, albeit often a bloody affair. here you can use your immagination and conjure everything that you know about the medival times. branding, flocking, cuting off limbs, tounges, fingers, eyes, ears and noses, are all used for less severe crimes. basically anything short of death can be applied.

Even death penalties won't promise you a swift death, as it might include any of the above mentioned before you're sent to the gallows. depending on where the sentence is carried out the offender dies horribly in many various ways. Middenland for instance prefer to burn horse thieves, and Nuln practice the horrendous Lead belly death, which means the offender gets poured melted lead downs his throat. in parts of Stirland the 8 days of dying is still popular, which means the offender will take 8 days to die of horrible torture and mutilation, often a physician assist to prevent the victim from dying until the 8. night.

usually the most horrific executions are saved to the most henious of crimes. But spectators love a good show, and most noble lords like to give a good show.

On a sidenot Witchhunters don't really need to hold courts, but when they do its for show and rousing the locals. all they need is either a confession or evidence chaos worship. only if both lack or the offender is of high standing does the Witchhunter appeals to a court, even then the witch hunter will take on not only the role as accuser but a judge as well.

The Imperial courts is not about being fair it's about setting examples trough fear and terror, to keep people in check. I believe the next issue of Liber Fanatica will have articles about crime & punishment. so look forward to that treat.

Good gaming.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and ideas. Mal's post in particular was pretty beefy and exhaustive. We do have a nobleman (albeit a gambler who was captured after adventuring through some sewers - so it wasn't apparent that he WAS someone of a higher social standing) in the party, and the party does have some backing of people who might wish to see them not harmed.

So thanks for giving me a number of ideas, and some of that awesome 'gritty' flavor to add to my proceedings.

Hi all,

I just started working on something similar to what Mel has said as a submission for LF8. As I don't want to overlap I have posted it there - it is a VERY ROUGH draft (mainly ideas) and no real mechanics as yet.

This is an area that is very appealing and great for the whole backstory / real consequence eventualities that characters create.

Alp

An important note:

Some PCs are so powerful that they can easily fend off local watchmen, even in the gritty WFRP world. Perhaps it is a sign of my poor skills as a DM, but it is a rare occurrence that the players have any actual fear of authority.

My point is that the consequences of being declared a criminal should mean far more than just the occasional melee fight with watchmen. Skilled Bounty Hunters may go after them by roughing up loved ones or allies. Some towns will simply refuse to let them in due to their notoriety. Whatever: as long as there are tangible effects beyond the risk of battle, because some players feel that the odds are on their side, and any BEEFING up by the DM of NPC stats is considered "House Ruling".

My 2 cents.

alp said:

Hi alp, your thinking about the Carnival idea right? and I've read your suggestions on LF8. if you jump back there you might read my response. but I love your idea and concept. Strong, well-defined NPCs are vital to a adventure and campaign as well.

maybe we can discuss it more over at LF and skype?

Necrozius said:

Necro,

There's no doubt in my mind that the PCs could have taken out the handful of guard (well maybe. They were badly hurt, and in a Shallayan hospice. Arms at hand, but out of armor. But even so, not the point). A half dozen guys in chain with halberds isn't terribly frightening when your wizard can turn into a six foot tall wolf, and the Sigmarite bisects people (heck he bisects scarier things than people) with a warhammer.

However, authority is based on accountability. The Sigmarite believes in the Empire, and suggesting that they kill the guards would only work if either lives (or the empire, maybe the church) were at stake (they have to shake the guards off to go stop a demon summoning or somesuch) or more than likely the Sigmarite would be the one helping the guards! If she kills a dozen guards, the Amber mage would have to explain her actions to the colleges (and how it relates to her oath to serve the Emperor that all wizards take). The Sigmarite would have to answer to the church. The roadwarden to his employer. And while killing a dozen guards may not be impossible, the two dozen behind them, the bounty hunters behind those, and eventually other adventurer's wizards and witch hunters would change the tone and direction of the campaign significantly. We (in the game) are trying to work FOR the empire, the noble gambler is trying to re-establish his house and title, to kill these guards would have gone against everything the players are and stand for. Mechanically speaking I can make some badass merc's/guards, but stopping the PCs from taking hostile actions is less about organized resistance (and believe me, even at 1 wound a successful hit, enough guards take PCs the heck down - especially with 2H weapons, not to mention the better armored and action-card wielding guard Captains ) and more about the motives and goals of the group. It's a lot easier to search for cultists when the guard is on your side.

The point is they performed the actions they did (killing thugs) because they felt them necessary (and there was chaos involved) forgetting that this isn't DnD and you can't just kick over a beehive and expect not to get stung. But when the guard came for them, they did not resist. What I'm trying to do, is make the legal proceedings not be horribly boring and vicious (IE this isn't an episode of Law and Order) but a realistic and gritty method of forwarding the plot, and making things interesting.