Agreed. It's not overpowered. People tend to use that word when they mean 'not completely balanced' .

bmaynard said:

There are times when Dodge is better than Parry. Ranged attacks are a no go with Parry, so Dodge is your friend, and if you're using Frenzy and haven't taken Battle Rage, Dodge is again your only defensive option.

Good catch. To that I'll say:

Pick up Battle Rage. If you're going to be an assault marine, you're going to want to have counter attack and you're going to want to be able to parry.

With a 42-62meter charge range, the assaults I'm seeing played are not getting shot at often if at all. Let the ranged marines engage at range while melee moves silently up before charging.

Yes, having dodge available can be great, but the point remains, even at the worst you can munchkin it, even at a +15agility bonus, is that game-changingly broken? No.

bmaynard said:

Not everyone is an Assault Marine. With most other specialties, your counterpoints are of questionable value.

It would appear you missed my whole point then.

and I quote:

"The one comment I seem to see repeated is how out of control an assault marine with +10 agility (from the mark VI armor) or even, emperor forbid, +15 (mark VI with a fury like lightning history, holy crap) would be. Now maybe I missed something, but honestly, how bad would that be?"

bmaynard said:

Fair. However, I don't see why this armour would only be attractive to the Assault Marine. Those specialties that get slower Agility Advancement are even more likely to enjoy a +10 Agility.

Note that even with Assault Marines, there will be those that don't Parry and instead rely on Dodge. Those armed with Power Fists or Thunder Hammers (and not carrying a Storm Shield) as well as those using a Sacris Claymore will often be better off with Dodge. Characters planning this fighting sysle may even elect not to pay the points for Battle Rage when they might want to wait a bit for Dodge +10. Such character also are unlikely to have spent points in Counter Attack if Parry isn't likely to be their common defence. There really are too many options between Characteristics, Skills, and Talents to assume that any character can really get all - or even most - of them.

If it's a problem, have enemies single out the brothers with the shiny/antique armour. Especially Traitor Marines, who'd know all about the armour assignment methods/weakness of the types.

See how Brother Munchkinus likes Melta death from traitor guardsmen.

Good points all.

I hadn't considered unwieldy/unbalanced weapons causing dodge to be the more attractive stat test.

All things considered, the query remains. Does a +15 to a test you can only take against 1 incoming attack per turn imbalance the game?

Ugolino said:

If you think that Mk6 armour is munchkinism then you should probably give all of Rites of Battle a pass. The Deeds section alone will probably hurt your sensibilities.

HappyDaze said:

Point of fact: I like the Rites of Battle book, and most of the contents. (Just wish there'd been rules for all the original Chapters, and less focus on the Smurfs.) I was just pointing out that if someone's gaming the rules, it should be easy to make them change their mind, or make things even for the non-powergamers.

Ugolino said:

I tend to prefer the latter to the former. I'd rather not punish any of the players, and rewarding players for making mechanically sound choices is built-in to the game, so I prefer to toss a bone to players that sometimes * take less mechanically advantageous choices.

* Players that try to game this by intentionally taking sub-standard choices and then expecting a boon for it are often disappointed.

Ugolino said:

Because covering some of the major successor Chapters of the most prolific progenitor of space marine chapters is bad?

ItsUncertainWho said:

No, but the Successor Chapters section is fairly weak overall. I'd have preferred to see fewer Successor Chapters presented with full write-ups (like the Black Templars and the Storm Wardens) rather than the more numerous and dubiously balanced options we now have.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Because we don't need more of Matt Ward's favorite dullards, and certainly not ones with sloppy, slightly different paint schemes. Honestly, Raven Guard and White Scars need more attention than the Novamahreens and company, especially given their earlier attention in the IA books (among others), which should make their few special rules and fluff a breeze. Things like the Consecrators, Angels of Redemption, and Mortificators are understandable, but page upon page of Ultramarine rip-offs aren't really useful.

It's a miracle how dull the modern GW writers (Not FFG's, who did a decent job with bad materials) have made Space Roman Legionnaires. It's not FFG's fault, but did the Ultramarines need that much attention? Touches like their Captain using unsanctioned brainwashing were nice, but it's a pity that they wouldn't be allowed to take things further without the GW fluff department throwing a hissy fit.

Quite apart from Deathwatch (for which some of their rules are a bit silly; dragging down the cohesion is just asking for interparty accidents), the Ultramarines need to die in a fire. Something like what happened with their First Company, only making it stick this time.

I can't really see much merit in your beef with the Ultramarines Successors since they only take up four pages. All things considered, that's not too much.

Ugolino said:

What focus on the smurfs? They only get one deed, and the same number of successors listed as most other Chapters.

My point is that we'd have been better off with rules for even one other progenitor chapter than with more Ultramarines. Come on, who needs more information on the Genesis chapter or the Smurf Consuls?

Yes I agree why did they have to talk about the most important chapters? I would have preferred some obscure chapters no one knows about and my players can't connect with!

Hey, not all players and DM are GW fanboys and just maybe they thought to go with the main stream chapters and actually explain to the normals what a SM chapter is etc.

Cause not all DW players are fanboys!

cheers

I think they simply needed a mix of smaller chapter and 1st Foundings in order to populate Erioch and the Reach in a meaningful manner. Com'on guys... a game only with 1st Foundings? I don't think it's about chapters that are most interesting or most important. It's about providing a mix of chapters, from important to obscure. The kind of thing you can expect at Erioch.

Alex

FFG also has to hold something back for later books. What better way to entice and coerce people into buying them than including a first founding chapter?

ak-73 said:

just realized, did we completely derail that thread? Says Armor type are OP?

crisaron said:

ummm... yeah you did :-)

BTT: are the new MKs OP? NO they are not! BAEM!

Vendettar said:

Care to translate that to the board's common tongue (English)?